468 replies to this topic

[Syllogy]

CloaknDagger, on 26 March 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

AC-2 does .2
AC-5 does .5
AC-10 does 1
Gauss does 1.5
AC20 does 2

U/ACs can do double, but if they try them might jam.

So all Autocannons only fire once every 10 seconds, which the exception of the UAC5, which can fire twice...

So an AC20, which does 20 Damage per Shot (That's why they call it an AC20) does 2 DPS, which means it would only fire once every 10 seconds...

JohanssenJr, on 26 March 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Go to TT armor values, keep the weapon recycle times the way they are, but reduce their damage to TT weapon DPS. The TT AC/20 does 20 damage in a ten second window. The MWO AC/20 does 50 damage in a ten second window, hence the need for the doubled armor values. The TT AC/20 had a DPS of 2, the MWO AC/20 has a DPS of 5. If they dropped to TT armor, change the AC/20 to doing 8 damage a round with the 4.00 second cooldown. That AC/20 now has the same DPS as the TT AC/20.

That might be where a lot people with the "go to TT armor values" are coming from. And I think the previous MW titles did this. However, while I prefer the system above, I'm certain it won't change.

An AC20 is called an AC20 in TT because it does 20 damage per shot. In the actual lore and books, there is no such thing as an AC20. Autocannons are simply referred to as Light, Medium, and/or Heavy Autocannons.

Edited by Syllogy, 26 March 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[CloaknDagger]

Syllogy, on 26 March 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

So all Autocannons only fire once every 10 seconds, which the exception of the UAC5, which can fire twice...

Nope. Some autocannons in their class fire more than once. Some do fire only once.

The number means only the Damage per second, the heat per second, the ammo per second, the weight, and the range.

The actual rate of fire, damage, and ammo can vary.

[Syllogy]

CloaknDagger, on 26 March 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Nope. Some autocannons in their class fire more than once. Some do fire only once.

The number means only the Damage per second, the heat per second, the ammo per second, the weight, and the range.

The actual rate of fire, damage, and ammo can vary.

But then, according to the Tabletop Canon that you so arduously adore would be violated, because an AC20 would no longer be an AC20, and the same goes for every other Autocannon.

Edited by Syllogy, 26 March 2013 - 06:25 PM.

[Xerxys]

CloaknDagger, on 26 March 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

No, my solution would be to keep everything at canon damage per second, heat per second, and ammo per second values.

If you want to increase rate of fire, go ahead, but DPS, HPS, and APS stay the same.

This is what PGI did, and it's failing. Sorry, maybe I'm reading it wrong. It's kind of hard to understand.

Edited by Xerxys, 26 March 2013 - 07:02 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Syllogy, on 26 March 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

An AC20 is called an AC20 in TT because it does 20 damage per shot. In the actual lore and books, there is no such thing as an AC20. Autocannons are simply referred to as Light, Medium, and/or Heavy Autocannons.

This I know since they give bore sizes in many instances, and TT can be played purely using Excel.

But where does it say that an AC/20 fires one massive shell for huge damage? When abstractly, it does 20 points of damage over 10 seconds? Why can it not fire a burst of 5 shells each doing 4 points of damage within a 10 second window? Or a stream of 20 shells for 1 damage each in a ten second turn?

Or transfered to realtime environment and not fire an 8 damage shell once every 4 seconds?

The spirit of the TT AC/20 does 20 damage in a 10 second window for a DPS of 2.

Does an AC/20 firing an 8 damage shell once every 4 seconds for a DPS of 2 not capture that spirit better than what we have now?

Syllogy, on 26 March 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

But then, according to the Tabletop Canon that you so arduously adore would be violated, because an AC20 would no longer be an AC20, and the same goes for every other Autocannon.

Mathematically incorrect. AC/20 in TT still does 20 points of damage over 10 seconds for a DPS of 2. An AC with a DPS of 2 would still be an AC/20 by TT standards, since it deals 20 damage over ten seconds

Edited by JohanssenJr, 26 March 2013 - 06:35 PM.

[CloaknDagger]

Xerxys, on 26 March 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

This is what PGI did, and it's failing.

No it isn't. AC20s don't do 20 DPS and 7 HPS, they do 50DPS and 17.5HPS.

Balance is completely screwed up because of it.

Syllogy, on 26 March 2013 - 06:25 PM, said:

But then, according to the Tabletop Canon that you so arduously adore would be violated, because an AC20 would no longer be an AC20, and the same goes for every other Autocannon.

No, canon is that an AC20 does 20 damage in 10 seconds. It doesn't matter if that's one shot every 100 seconds that does 200 damage, or one shot every .001 second that does .002 damage.

[Syllogy]

CloaknDagger, on 26 March 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

No, canon is that an AC20 does 20 damage in 10 seconds. It doesn't matter if that's one shot every 100 seconds that does 200 damage, or one shot every .001 second that does .002 damage.

By that rationalization, there is no difference between an AC2 and a Machine gun.

Sorry, but that debunks your statement.

[CloaknDagger]

Syllogy, on 26 March 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

By that rationalization, there is no difference between an AC2 and a Machine gun.

Sorry, but that debunks your statement.

An AC2 has a range of 24 and has 45 two damage shots a ton. An AC2 weights 6 tons.

A Machine gun has a range of 3 and has 200 two damage shots a ton. An MG weights 0.5 ton.

Pretty big difference.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Syllogy, on 26 March 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

By that rationalization, there is no difference between an AC2 and a Machine gun.

Sorry, but that debunks your statement.

And by that rationalization there's not difference between a medium laser and an AC/5

[Xerxys]

Since people aren't seeming to understand what I'm trying to say, I'm going to show you in as basic of a mathematical way as I can.

Let me start by noting that a 1:1 ratio does not mean that everything has to be brought and maintained from the TT rules. I'll explain this as we go. I'm going to further show you how I would implement a 1:1 ratio that I'm pretty sure would work and I'm going to do it step by step. I'm going to start with the 10 second round and work from there. I'm also going to use the PPC as my example weapon. Just to adhere to the K.I.S.S.(Keep It Simple Stupid) rule we're going to run a mech that has an engine that can hold 10 SHS. Also note that the TT heat capacity max is 30 regardless of number of HS, DHS or anything else.

Lets just start from TT values. We have a 10 second round. We are firing the PPC that has a damage of 10 and a Heat of 10. See where this is going to keep things simple? A 10 second combat simulator would be boring! Not to mention that movement as we have it now would throw a terrible imbalance to the weapons. How do we fix this? Naturally we're going to increase firing rate. Where should this be? Since PGI went with 3 and I find that to be a stupid number( as 10/3=3.33333...) I'm going to go with 2.5. 2.5*4=10 so I have effectively increased rate of fire by a factor of 4. Now to keep balance in the game I'm also going to divide the weapon damage and heat generated by 4. 10/4=2.5 for both weapon and heat.

At this point we are firing our PPC every 2.5 seconds. Our PPC is doing 2.5 damage with every shot that hits. It is also generating 2.5 heat per shot. Despite all the changes we've made here we have still maintained a 1:1:1 ratio between rate of fire, damage and heat generation. Do we need to change anything else at this point? Nope and here's why. Armor is a set value and has nothing to do with how our turns work because we're doing 1/4 of the weapons damage per shot. Since everything is still set as every 10 seconds I'm firing my PPC 4 times that will total 10 damage if I land all my shots and it's still generating 10 heat during that 10 second period. Note that nothing to this point has changed. We have also killed another bird with this stone as I have a chance to miss with with my shots and lowering my overall dps. I think this would factor into balancing out the whole pinpoint accuracy issue.

Does heat capacity need to be altered? Nope, because everything is still running on a 10 second total. With 10 standard heat sinks we are still dissipating 10 heat every 10 seconds, my PPC is still(potentially) doing 10 damage every 10 seconds, and my heat is still generating at 10 per a 10 second turn. Nothing has truly changed from TT that can't be accounted for with some minor changes. Is this absolutely perfect? Dunno, probably not. Does this give us a relatively balanced format from which to make tweaks to better fit the TT, I happen to think so.

This is the simplest way I can explain how ratio works when talking about using TT.

Edited by Xerxys, 26 March 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Xerxys, on 26 March 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

Since people aren't seeming to understand what I'm trying to say, I'm going to show you in as basic of a mathematical way as I can.

Let me start by noting that a 1:1 ratio does not mean that everything has to be brought and maintained from the TT rules. I'll explain this as we go. I'm going to further show you how I would implement a 1:1 ratio that I'm pretty sure would work and I'm going to do it step by step. I'm going to start with the 10 second round and work from there. I'm also going to use the PPC as my example weapon. Just to adhere to the K.I.S.S.(Keep It Simple Stupid) rule we're going to run a mech that has an engine that can hold 10 SHS. Also note that the TT heat capacity max is 30 regardless of number of HS, DHS or anything else.

Lets just start from TT values. We have a 10 second round. We are firing the PPC that has a damage of 10 and a Heat of 10. See where this is going to keep things simple? A 10 second combat simulator would be boring! Not to mention that movement as we have it now would throw a terrible imbalance to the weapons. How do we fix this? Naturally we're going to increase firing rate. Where should this be? Since PGI went with 3 and I find that to be a stupid number( as 10/3=3.33333...) I'm going to go with 2.5. 2.5*4=10 so I have effectively increased rate of fire by a factor of 5. Now to keep balance in the game I'm also going to divide the weapon damage and heat generated by 4. 10/4=2.5 for both weapons.

At this point we are firing our PPC every 2.5 seconds. Our PPC is doing 2.5 damage with every shot that hits. It is also generating 2.5 heat per shot. Despite all the changes we've made here we have still maintained a 1:1:1 ratio between rate of fire, damage and heat generation. Do we need to change anything else at this point? Nope and here's why. Armor is a set value and has nothing to do with how our turns work because we're doing 1/4 of the weapons damage per shot. Since everything is still set as every 10 seconds I'm firing my PPC 4 times that will total 10 damage if I land all my shots and it's still generating 10 heat during that 10 second period. Note that nothing to this point has changed. We have also killed another bird with this stone as I have a chance to miss with with my shots and lowering my overall dps. I think this would factor into balancing out the whole pinpoint accuracy issue.

Does heat capacity need to be altered? Nope, because everything is still running on a 10 second total. With 10 standard heat sinks we are still dissipating 10 heat every 10 seconds, my PPC is still(potentially) doing 10 damage every 10 seconds, and my heat is still generating at 10 per second. Nothing has truly changed from TT that can't be accounted for with some minor changes. Is this absolutely perfect? Dunno, probably not. Does this give us a relatively balanced format from which to make tweaks to better fit the TT, I happen to think so.

This is the simplest way I can explain how ratio works when talking about using TT.

This. This what I think would've been the key to best balance.

[Syllogy]

JohanssenJr, on 26 March 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

And by that rationalization there's not difference between a medium laser and an AC/5

Medium Lasers are Energy Based, Autocannons are Ballistic

Seriously though, An AC5 is called an AC5 because it does 5 damage per shot (not per shell, not per 10 seconds, but 5 damage per shot) regardless of the delivery method, as long as it is Ballistic.

Do some research, ask some questions... hell, ask Randall Bills (Catalyst Games' in-house Battletech Guru) and you will find out that this is correct.

Change the rate of fire, but keep the DPS, and you are still throwing Canon out the window, even more-so than PGI has done.

This mess is exactly why PGI used TT rules as a baseline and not a true Gameplay Rule System.

Edited by Syllogy, 26 March 2013 - 08:08 PM.

[CloaknDagger]

Syllogy, on 26 March 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Seriously though, An AC5 is called an AC5 because it does 5 damage per shot (not per shell, not per 10 seconds, but 5 damage per shot) regardless of the delivery method, as long as it is Ballistic.

No, it's per 10 seconds. That's why the Marauder's AC5 is just one giant cannon, but other AC5's are burst fire.

[Syllogy]

CloaknDagger, on 26 March 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

No, it's per 10 seconds. That's why the Marauder's AC5 is just one giant cannon, but other AC5's are burst fire.

Sorry, you are wrong. Do some research, come back, and start speaking from a point of knowledge.

Hint: AC5 Slug = AC5 Burst (per shot damage) UAC5 (5 damage, 10 if fired twice)

Edited by Syllogy, 26 March 2013 - 08:13 PM.

[CloaknDagger]

Syllogy, on 26 March 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Sorry, you are wrong. Do some research, come back, and start speaking from a point of knowledge.

Hint: AC5 Slug = AC5 Burst (per shot damage) UAC5 (5 damage, 10 if fired twice)

So you're saying that the Chemjet Superheavy Cannon (a brand of AC20) mounted on the Hetzer, does NOT fire 10 shells per burst? And that it 50 shells is a ton of ammo?

[Karl Streiger]

Pontiac 100 Type AC 20. 60mm rate of fire 600 shots per minute
120mm Whirlwind AC5 rof 30 rounds per minute
Crusher AC20 185mm 18 shots per minute.

Dry to say but the OP is absolutely right.

I'm sure that even the best shooter will have some problems..
a dps of 1 mean a single PPC need 33sec to break a atlas side torso and cannon armor values and mwo rof.
now its 18 sec.

Do want do want.
even the convergence issues of hexa stalker would decreased and those fps faction still can show there 'skill' in using there mouse

Maybe you could make some room for modifications of RoF and Dmg.
Fast firing PPC....fires each second but with just 1dmg
Slow firing PPC - fires each 10sec but with the full 10dmg hit

Edited by Karl Streiger, 27 March 2013 - 12:03 AM.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

unjammable UAC?
Do we play same game?

[AndyHill]

1) 10 seconds being boring is still either a fallacy (many of the probably a hundred million+ by now WoT players would disagree) or a matter of opinion
2) If instant alpha strikes would be removed, you would be firing 3 - 14 weapons during that timeso it would be a bit hectic
3) Keeping ratios by dividing damage etc. would be a) canonical, which is not that huge a deal and b ) better starting point for balancing than what we have now

Edited by AndyHill, 27 March 2013 - 12:51 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Syllogy, on 26 March 2013 - 08:04 PM, said:

Medium Lasers are Energy Based, Autocannons are Ballistic

Seriously though, An AC5 is called an AC5 because it does 5 damage per shot (not per shell, not per 10 seconds, but 5 damage per shot) regardless of the delivery method, as long as it is Ballistic.

No, that's not what the lore states.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon
Description

An Autocannon is a type of rapid-firing, auto-loading direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) or kinetic rounds at targets in bursts. It is, basically, a giant "machine gun" that fires predominantly cased explosive shells though models firing saboted high velocity kinetic energy penetrators or caseless ordnance do exist. Among the earliest tank/BattleMech scale weaponry produced, autocannons produce far less heat than energy weapons, but are considerably bulkier and are dependent upon limited stores of ammunition.
Autocannons range in caliber from 30mm up to 203mm and are loosely grouped according to their damage vs armor.^[1] The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage due to recoil and other factors. Autocannon are grouped into the following loose damage classes:

• Autocannon/2
  
• Autocannon/5
  
• Autocannon/10
  
• Autocannon/20

Beyond the "standard" models, variants include the shotgun-like LBX, quick-firing Ultra and the gatling-type Rotary. Light-weight variants and capital ship scale models also exist. The experimental Hypervelocity Autocannon has also entered limited production.^[2][3]

Caliber

Caliber is fluff for the size of the barrel that the shell or shells are fired from and no standard caliber has been set for any of the classes of Autocannon. Autocannon in a class vary by manufacturer and model. With the fluffed number of shells and caliber being specified, no Autocannon has been specified to be one shell fired for each "round" or burst of fire. Probable exceptions are the 185 mm ChemJet Gun Autocannon/20 mounted on the Demolisher combat vehicle and Monitor Surface vessel or the 203 mm Ultra Autocannon/20 on the Cauldron Born A BattleMech.

[Syllogy]

Quote

Autocannons range in caliber from 30mm up to 203mm and are loosely grouped according to their damage vs armor.....Autocannon are grouped into the following loose damage classes:

Damage vs. Armor, not Damage Over Time. I win.

Edited by Syllogy, 27 March 2013 - 06:26 AM.