448 replies to this topic

[Marduk Moreau]

Corpustroni, on 13 March 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

As a fellow atlas pilot i love to "break the ice", mostly becouse i hate fights where mechs just shoot and take cover all the time. I choose to belive that its my role to open up the fight. And to those who say that atlases die as fast as any other mech is probably cuz that atlas was for some noob reason using an xl engine, cuz i have lost both my torsos and can keep going.

yeah those 2 medium lasers do make a difference On a Zombie Atlas-D over the weaponless CT of a D-DC...

[rdmgraziel]

Yeah, I hate the back and forth poke nonsense too. I kind of wish there was better ways to communicate with PUGs; they only seem to listen to what you say part of the time. "We need to flank" gets interpretted as "EVERYONE SPREAD OUT". I've also won a few matches by BEING the sacrificial lamb of an Atlas with comically low damage numbers. But me tying up a portion of the enemy team while my team flanks and closes is glorious. Feels good, even if I end up wishing I could have had some numbers to validate my part in the fight..."Atlas only did X damage and died? What a scrub."

[Malsumis]

RockWolf, on 13 March 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

Oh wait when did MWO become a TEAM GAME. Taking hits for the team is tanking, and the DPS mech is that fellow jump-phract that can keep on shooting while you are right in front of him. Are you in a clan/merc/house by any chance? Well if you are, you would understand that if the big mech fights and takes the hits, you will have more time to carefuly split open opponents from the rear. Its all about working together.

At first we had teams bases on weight and competitive play still has that. So equal skill and classes makes for an interesting TEAMWORK oriented game, just like WoW in PVP.

By the way, efficiency is overrated. Unless you can constantly head shot people. It should be the number of hits(damage) given vs the amount of hits(damage) taken. That's what wins matches. And why jump snipers are so feared.



Awesome yes... Stalker is quite something with his small frontal profile.

I have been part of a unit for years. Also played in some leagues as well. If an Atlas wants to step into the open and "tank", my team will put it down in seconds. Any pilot who thinks they should stand in the open and soak up damage is a fool. These are the same fools who HATED MW4 for all the EFFICIENT pop snipers and hill humpers. I've been starting to pop snipe once again in my C1 and 3D. I love it! When I don't have jets, I'll hill hump or pop out from behind buildings just long enough to fire then get back behind cover. This way I don't need to worry about incoming damage no matter what mech I'm in.

So by all means, rush in with your Atlas. I'll gladly punch a hole directly in the center for you.

[Joseph Mallan]

One simply does not Rush in an Atlas.

Mutually exclusive.

[Bilbo]

Mr 144, on 13 March 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Heavy Brawlers....I hate you. You shadow me, using my bulk as cover as I plod along. You give me a sense of security, backup, a force multiplier. As soon as the engagement starts, you run away from me, most times withdrawing completely from the brawl when it gets tough. You don't shoot the same things your Atlas is, you don't protect him from faster flankers while he handles the meat of the oppostition. You leave your Atlas alone...high-and-dry...stranded...at the slightest scratch of your heavy's paint.

Next time you run from a fight and leave me to 'tank' an entire team solo, I will spin in circles spamming fire in all directions...God knows I can't disengage to TK ya...you've already ran.

Please be useful for the Atlas if you expect him to tank.

Sincerely yours,

An Atlas Pilot

A thousand times this.

Edited by Bilbo, 13 March 2013 - 07:42 AM.

[kalami]

Bilbo, on 13 March 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

A thousand times this.

I get you; but don't knock me for sliding to your right or left and slightly behind when we go through the arch and encounter another atlas. I will support you but I cannot be in front of you as I will be dead which is no help to anyone.

[AdmirableAdmiral]

My atlas d runs twin llas twin MLAs some sized lrm launcher and an ac10
My mech is pretty heat neutral so I tend to hang back and alpha over and over till I close in

[RockWolf]

Malsumis, on 13 March 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

I have been part of a unit for years. Also played in some leagues as well. If an Atlas wants to step into the open and "tank", my team will put it down in seconds. Any pilot who thinks they should stand in the open and soak up damage is a fool. These are the same fools who HATED MW4 for all the EFFICIENT pop snipers and hill humpers. I've been starting to pop snipe once again in my C1 and 3D. I love it! When I don't have jets, I'll hill hump or pop out from behind buildings just long enough to fire then get back behind cover. This way I don't need to worry about incoming damage no matter what mech I'm in.

So by all means, rush in with your Atlas. I'll gladly punch a hole directly in the center for you.

I am a fellow jumpartist, but I am not talking about rushing. A good push is what makes or break taking a hill. Especially on Frozen City or Caustic. So many times an Atlas pilot that can use his arms to shield can soak up so much damage, while all the damage dealers follow. I would rather have that 3 srm 6 atlas in front of me then behind me. So many times I followed Genrev or Mongoose into the fray and we both survived. If you replace that same pilot running a brawling DDC to a LRM DDC, I wouldn't have been able to push. And you don't tank the whole team. You exploit the angles.

Pugs will always be pugs.

Edited by RockWolf, 13 March 2013 - 08:04 AM.

[Wags73]

Interesting topic and I can certainly see both sides to the argument. I have no opinion on the battle strategies of an Atlas as I do not own one simply because they are target #1 in every game and also because it is their right to pilot or arm it as they choose. What I can say is in just about every game when piloting any mediums or heavies I stick to within support distance of the Atlas to either protect it from the 3L that seem to always swarm it or to focus fire on anything the Atlas targets. If they fire on me, whatever but I figure combining my fire with that of the Atlas should dispatch enemies at quite a fast rate.

[Rebas Kradd]

Jammerben87, on 13 March 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

Why do people keep trying to persuade others than atlai die? We know that. Everything dies. Atlai just do it a lot slower.

Not really. The game is not currently balanced enough to where the Atlas can soak up damage long enough to make a difference. At the present stage, anything, including an Atlas, will die in seconds when focused upon, especially from the rear. And I don't know about you, but whenever I see an Atlas on the other side, I immediately order my team to focus on him. Forget the Cataphracts running around. Take out the Atlas and a far more disproportionate chunk of their firepower is gone.

I'm gonna flip this argument the other way around: there's a difference between using a friendly Atlas to put your team ahead in the game of attrition, and shoving an Atlas out in front of you so you don't have to take any fire.

The proper way to use a friendly Atlas is to charge in with him, send a couple heavies or even mediums in alongside him. I'm not terrified of a solitary Atlas, ever. I can outrun him, outmaneuver him, order a friendly strike on him, and judging by the fact that he was silly enough to charge in unescorted, I can reasonably guess that he's probably not much of a pilot. What does terrify me is an Atlas escorted by a pair of Hunchbacks. Screw that, I'm outta here.

Delay even 20 seconds (IMO) in charging in with your friendly Atlas lancemate, and all you've done is wasted him.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 13 March 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Onmyoudo, on 13 March 2013 - 02:32 AM, said:

I suppose it could be interpreted that I am saying that the Atlas has only one role, but that way I see it it is an additional role to whatever other role you are performing. You can have a ranged build and still be a damage soak - people are still more likely to shoot the Atlas 300m away than the Hunchback 150m to their left.

The heavies (and everyone else) hanging back and waiting for kills is in my eyes essentially the same problem, albeit with slightly less ability to take a hit. Everybody's kind of too cowardly - especially without team voice comms to co-ordinate an assault. Everyone just waits for someone else to make the first move. I just feel it's more noticeable with Atlai that are completely untouched by the time half your team has been wiped out.

You have valid points. I like at the beginning of a match when everyone is looking at the sole D-DC and he is looking at us. He ends up moving out. Then LRMs fire out of his side torso at some unreliable lock 999m away. I facepalm and know he will be the last man standing then get 8v1'd.

Someone brought up another valid point though. The role of D-DC is to soak damage but that doesn't mean he necessarily needs to be set up as a brawler. If everyone on the team is a sniper then it makes no sense for the D-DC to be short range. However, that is for game where you know what people are bringing beforehand aka tournaments. In pugs, this doesn't matter. I would say the most effective build of D-DC would be one with 3xSRM6s and then long range ballistic/laser weapons except the regular PPC. In this way if the team is mostly snipers then he can stay back with them. If the team is short range then he can soak damage on the front.

I share your frustration. MWO needs integrated VOIP pronto before it dies and all that's left are the competitive people.

[Atlas3060]

Mr 144, on 13 March 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Heavy Brawlers....I hate you. You shadow me, using my bulk as cover as I plod along. You give me a sense of security, backup, a force multiplier. As soon as the engagement starts, you run away from me, most times withdrawing completely from the brawl when it gets tough. You don't shoot the same things your Atlas is, you don't protect him from faster flankers while he handles the meat of the oppostition. You leave your Atlas alone...high-and-dry...stranded...at the slightest scratch of your heavy's paint.

Next time you run from a fight and leave me to 'tank' an entire team solo, I will spin in circles spamming fire in all directions...God knows I can't disengage to TK ya...you've already ran.

Please be useful for the Atlas if you expect him to tank.

Sincerely yours,

An Atlas Pilot

Hey Atlas Pilot,

When you see my name next to you remember that I'm shadowing you and will put multiple bullets in targets with you with glee.
I only ask for two things:
1. We both don't get in each other's way during the shooting. Our weapons need not scorch each other's paint when there's plenty of enemy paint to chip away and melt.
2. I seem to have this medical condition where Ravens grow out of my backside. They aren't even ours! The doctor said its best to use laser surgery but I can't reach back there. Be a pal and kill it? Thanks man!

So once again, I may not be a heavy brawler but if you've got a target close enough expect my weapons to pour into that guy with yours.

All the best,
Hunchback pilot.

[LordBraxton]

If the whole team forms up in the buildings together and plays coy....

then you are all playing as smart as the atlas was and you win....

[Satan n stuff]

silentD11, on 13 March 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

I always groan when I see an Atlas with LRMs, there are soo much better mechs for that. There are also better mechs for LRMs + long range direct fire support. It's obnoxious because we could either have had a better Atlas build, or a better support build. So it's a wash either way and not an efficient use of one of our 8 player slots.

How many mechs can reasonably carry three LRM15s or two LRM20s with artemis and a Gauss rifle? I could check but I'm guessing the answer is exactly one. That's right, the Atlas. Add a TAG to that and however many lasers will fit and you've got a killer mech that will destroy anything at range in seconds. If you're the slowest thing on the field it's not a bad idea to build your mech for long range.

[Baltasar]

Well, right now, the Atlas is the only mech that can boat LRMs and defend himself from being shutdown by an ecm light.

[Brethgar]

So I'm in my Atlas D last night and pull Alpine Conquest. My team starts at the empty end with the small base. I look around and see where everyone is going and they are all headed to Epsilon. I head for Theta. Why? It's a cap game and no one went to the easy cap and EVERY time the other team is all headed to Epsilon and someone fast is getting Kappa. One Awesome followed me.
Was there any communication from my teammates? Did they follow their assaults? Nope. Just rushed to Epsilon and all died. I was tired of getting caught in that meat grinder so for ONE match I went the other direction. After they died and were spectating they started throwing insults about how Assaults should have been on the front line and we would have won if only we had been there to support them. IT'S A CAP MATCH AND NO ONE WAS CAPPING except me and my poor Awesome accomplice. We lost, of course, and had scores of zero. But even if we had followed the pug herd and killed everyone over at Epsilon we still would have lost because of cap.

Should I have followed the group? Probably. Did it matter in this case? Probably not. I guess my point is that there are more aspects to the game than just bum rushing the other team and getting kills. I have lost tons of matches to one fast mech who goes around unopposed and caps everything, while all of his mates are dead.

So who's the bad player here? Me for trying a different tactic and not following the herd or the other guys who didn't follow their Atlas and had no intention of capping anything and trying to win?

[CarnifexMaximus]

OP, I totally agree with what you are getting at. Nothing more dissapointing than seeing the last mech alive on your team is a 2mg lrm 45, ml ddc lobbing lrms from outside 800 m.

However, as a dedicated D-DC pilot for the last 2 maybe 3 weeks I've noticed fewer teammates following me when I solo drop. Especially on Alpine. My team wants to hump the hill and shoot at Epsilon when I am trying to lead the charge to smoke out the mechs hiding there and sniping at us. There used to be a day when you piloted a D-DC it was like leading lemmings into the sea, you are an automatic magnet for others to follow you around. In general, I don't solo drop very much, but when I do, I am hesitant to take my atlas as I cannot be guaranteed others will follow and I do not want to play the coward "support" atlas.

[Josef Nader]

I picked up an Atlas back in CB because I got sick and tired of watching people sit in their 100 ton damage sponges 500m behind the front lines and snipe. If we lose and I haven't lost every section of my mech and dealt 500 damage, I've failed my job as an Atlas. Plain and simple.

[LeMans]

As a person who's run an Atlas in many many matches, here are the problems I've run into, mostly mentioned before in this thread:

I'm going in! (exiting forest colony tunnel with 2 -3 friendly M/H mechs standing within 20 meters, and 2-3 enemies waiting outside)
The rest of my team stays in the tunnel while I die fighting the enemy, then trickle out and die after.

I'm going over! (frozen city ridgeline, 3-4 enemy waiting, 3-5 us in one spot on edge ready)
Rest of my mates stand still and don't follow me over, I die in 20 seconds, then they trickle over and die one at a time, or they die in a counter rush after I go down.

(Team tells me:) We're going across lake to lower city! (River City, I started on far left on low end)
OTW! (On The Way) By the time I get to the water edge the rest of my team is 500+ meters away, I get killed by 2 lights and medium who rush up river to my back/side, my call for help is ignored.

These are not uncommon scenarios, unfortunately.
Everyone has some amount of responsibility to stay alive as long as possible to continue to do damage to the enemy. An Atlas by definition is not your meatshield by default. If I choose to make use of cover (almost always), snipe using my Med/LR weapons, and then face the enemy when I feel the situation is appropriate, I am playing to my strengths. No where does it say my job is to stand in the middle of a field with no cover screaming Kill ME, kill ME!

If I do decide to use my Atlas to break a stalemate, and I cue you to the timing (arguably if you can see me you should be figuring it out yourself), then suddenly YOU have a responsibility to make use of the 15-30 seconds I expect to survive to provide the break. There should be roughly a 2 count, and then everyone else near should be rolling in around/behind me, forcing the enemy to make decisions about who to shoot. If they shoot at me and continue to do so, and you (my team) have not killed 2 of the enemy while I die YOU have FAILED in YOUR role. Yes, really.

How often I'm willing to sacrifice myself to provide a team advantage hinges greatly on the support I got in my three most previous attempts (that's the way my brain makes this decision). So, if I am failing to provide this break for you, it's probably because of the lack of support I received in those attempts. I don't mind dying, but who likes to die pointlessly?

It's easy to point at one mech or weight class and say they aren't doing their job (regardless of agreement on what that job is) but doing so fails to recognize the responsibility of the other players on the team to provide support appropriately for that job.

Then there is the fact that the number of times I've been thanked for deciding to die providing the tactical break is exactly NIL. No one ever says: great timing breaking the stalemate, or thanks for sacrificing yourself so we could win. Mostly because people don't recognize it when it happens due to their lack of understanding of tactics, even when it went well. They just assume they are heroes because they got a cpl kills, too bad that moron atlas died...

Also, I fail to see the logic that if I managed to keep my mech in decent shape while damaging the enemy while you expose yourself to multi-enemy fire and get shredded, that somehow you are the superior player and doing your job, while I am failing in mine. Plus there is the fact that many matches have been won by that semi-fresh shooting-from-cover friendly, who manages to mop up the overly damaged enemy mechs left from the brawl they might have missed for no more reason than relative speeds, or a missed turn, etc. I have seen that tactic intentionally used in the past against my team, where they keep an assault safe till the end and he comes out fresh and hoses a bunch of people, sometimes winning the match.

I digress, but felt the need to provide counterpoint to the OP complaint.

[kalami]

Brethgar, on 13 March 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

So I'm in my Atlas D last night and pull Alpine Conquest. My team starts at the empty end with the small base. I look around and see where everyone is going and they are all headed to Epsilon. I head for Theta. Why? It's a cap game and no one went to the easy cap and EVERY time the other team is all headed to Epsilon and someone fast is getting Kappa. One Awesome followed me.
Was there any communication from my teammates? Did they follow their assaults? Nope. Just rushed to Epsilon and all died. I was tired of getting caught in that meat grinder so for ONE match I went the other direction. After they died and were spectating they started throwing insults about how Assaults should have been on the front line and we would have won if only we had been there to support them. IT'S A CAP MATCH AND NO ONE WAS CAPPING except me and my poor Awesome accomplice. We lost, of course, and had scores of zero. But even if we had followed the pug herd and killed everyone over at Epsilon we still would have lost because of cap.

Should I have followed the group? Probably. Did it matter in this case? Probably not. I guess my point is that there are more aspects to the game than just bum rushing the other team and getting kills. I have lost tons of matches to one fast mech who goes around unopposed and caps everything, while all of his mates are dead.

So who's the bad player here? Me for trying a different tactic and not following the herd or the other guys who didn't follow their Atlas and had no intention of capping anything and trying to win?

I get your frustration; but why didn't you say anything in chat? I understand if you just didn't want to as I'm not sure if it's comms or what but in a few games a night, ill put out information or questions in chat with no response whatsoever. Even when thats the case, I still keep chatting and putting out information if I think it can help someone.