448 replies to this topic

[StalaggtIKE]

Apnu, on 14 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

Yup, the Atlas is the "tank" of this MMO we play. The splatcats and boomcats are the DPS or otherwise high damage types. LRM boats are like the mages that hang back and reign fire and lights/medium mechs function like the thief/rouge types (their job is to detect the tactical traps, deliver good back-stabing, and chase off the other fast movers). All we're missing is some kind of mech that can either do crowd control or healing and we'd have a parallel for every 'toon type of every fantasy MMO.

As a tank the Atlas needs to attract the most aggro and hold it so the rest of the party (ahem, I mean "lance") can fulfill their roles. Stalkers, due to the durability can also tank.

Don't..., don't do this.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 14 March 2013 - 11:53 AM.

[Kaziganthi]

Apnu, on 14 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

As a tank the Atlas needs to attract the most aggro and hold it so the rest of the party (ahem, I mean "lance") can fulfill their roles. Stalkers, due to the durability can also tank.

Sorry, but just being in an Atlas creates enough agro to attract 7 Ogres, while my team are chasing that 1 kobald down the river..i don't need anymore

Edited by Kaziganthi, 14 March 2013 - 12:03 PM.

[DeadlyNerd]

Oh look, so many angry atlas addicts defending their useless style of piloting.
It is truly a sad moment when I see a PPC gauss sniper atlas acting as a turret, but then again I laugh at them as apparently that's the only thing they're good at.

Keep up that kind of piloting tbh. You're an easy target when up close and I get a good laugh while killing you.

[Sheriff x]

Bluten, on 14 March 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Atlases. Not "atlai".

That is all.

I am somewhat partial to Atlases.

Atlai has been removed from my vocabulary - thank you, sir.

[Apnu]

StalaggtIKE, on 14 March 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Don't..., don't do this.

Sorry mate but its true. This is a MMO, the devs have even said so, plainly. And each pilot has a role to play that has comparisons to Fantasy MMOs. I just described it in a way that DDO and WoW players here (and there are quite a few) can understand. And I'm having a little fun with it.

The Atlas (or any other 100 ton mech really) is the most armored thing on the battle field. Its going to attract attention and keep that attention just by being there. Even if it only packs small lasers, people are gunning for the Atlas. So the pilot might as well embrace that and use it to their advantage. I've had many games being the wing man for an atlas in my HBK-4G. I wait for the Atlas to grab the aggro, because I know they will, and then I focus fire on the Atlas' target to help drop it as quickly as possible. This is no different than the rouges I've played in other MMOs. Its an effective and universal strategy and works great when in a PUG.

Now if a DDC is gonna pack LRMs and, I dunno, PPCs or LLs, its still a tank and its gonna attract aggro and the pilot needs to understand that and be ready for the inevitable rush coming at his/her mech. If they're lucky they'll wear down the mechs at range for easy mop up, but they will attract aggro and they will hold it.

The best pilots understand this and will avoid giving the Atlas aggro and go for the lower hanging fruit (say its a splatcat hunting mediums or heavies). That guy knows to ignore the tank (if they can) and take out the tank's helpers so the tank is isolated and can be taken apart at leisure. I've always respected pilots who know how to work the aggro meta-game to their advantage.

[Khobai]

Quote

In reality that is not really true.

Atlas - 614 max armor
Stalker - 526 max armor
Awesome - 494 max armor

Max armor is irrelevant. You don't have to damage arms, legs, or side torsos to kill an Atlas. All that matters is center torso armor and center torso size.

Atlas = 124 center torso armor (very large center torso)
Stalker = 108 center torso armor (medium-large center torso)
Awesome = 100 center torso armor (large center torso)

We can see the Stalker is the clear winner here. Because even though it has 16 less armor, its center torso is way smaller.

Quote

If you let the enemy hit nothing but your center torso, you're a trash pilot. Torso twisting and damage management is one of the most important skills in this game

Likewise, if an enemy Atlas torso twists, and you alphastrike into their arm, you're also a trash pilot. Aiming your shots in the right location is an even more important skill in this game. Torso twisting is situational at best because any good pilot is just going to hold some of their firepower in reserve for when the Atlas torso twists back to face them.

Quote

The Atlas (or any other 100 ton mech really) is the most armored thing on the battle field.

Again this gets us back to the whole speed > armor argument. Not getting hit in the first place is way better than getting hit and having more armor. That's why light mechs with their ability to evade damage outright are significantly better at tanking than assaults.

So yes, an Atlas may have the most armor, but as long as a Raven-3L going 151kph mitigates more damage than the Atlas' armor affords, there's something very wrong with the weight class balance.

Edited by Khobai, 14 March 2013 - 12:34 PM.

[Josef Nader]

Apnu gets it.

Edited by Josef Nader, 14 March 2013 - 12:22 PM.

[Apnu]

Kaziganthi, on 14 March 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

Sorry, but just being in an Atlas creates enough agro to attract 7 Ogres, while my team are chasing that 1 kobald down the river..i don't need anymore

The Atlas pilot who knows how to play the aggro game will be an asset to his team. That's all I am saying. Now the kobold is doing a smart thing too, and its a good strategy He's pulling the aggro away and well, kinda controlling the crowd so you can be tore up. Sorry you've had bad games with easily duped players, I've run into the same situation while riding in my Atlas. Sometimes you just get p0wnd and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Michael Costanza]

The thing about Atlases is, if you take out it's right torso (which is pretty easy to hit), it's nerfed more than most other mechs since the main weapon for damage and/or range is almost always in the right torso and it loses an arm weapon or two. Compare that to a Stalker which still has ample firepower even if it's missing a torso.

They're also very slow so if they do rush in to one mech, it's hard for them to escape if two more enemy mechs are around the corner.

Also, the DCs carry ECM and sometimes AMS so they can help cover the other LRM boats and fight off any lights that wander in.

[Josef Nader]

But the DCs don't have the hardpoints to mount the best backup weapon to LRM boats, lasers. Lasers don't require ammo and heat is a non-issue because your LRMs are useless in a brawl. Also, DCs only have 15 tubes, so their 3 LRM 15 volley has to come out in 3 waves, unlike Stalkers and Awesomes that can spit up to 50 missiles into the air at once. Small ballistics are a pathetic threat on an Atlas, and Awesomes and Stalkers basically LRM boat a million times better than Atlai do.

[Apnu]

Michael Costanza, on 14 March 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

The thing about Atlases is, if you take out it's right torso (which is pretty easy to hit), it's nerfed more than most other mechs since the main weapon for damage and/or range is almost always in the right torso and it loses an arm weapon or two. Compare that to a Stalker which still has ample firepower even if it's missing a torso.

They're also very slow so if they do rush in to one mech, it's hard for them to escape if two more enemy mechs are around the corner.

Also, the DCs carry ECM and sometimes AMS so they can help cover the other LRM boats and fight off any lights that wander in.

Boy, this is true. I went through a frustrating period when the GR's health was reduced to 3 hp. That thing seemed to pop all the time. So I switched to a AC10 (sometimes LBX) and packed the area with other stuff (like heat sinks) to act as crit attractors. It gave me a bit more longevity both in that location and in the arm. The arm only drops off if all the health in the location goes to 0. With a GR blowing up and doing 20 pts of internal damage, the arm frequently fell off when the GR popped.

I now try to balance my builds knowing that the ballistic slot is a fire magnet and make sure I can still be useful when that location drops out. I've also learned this lesson with the Hunchback.

[ZnSeventeen]

Apnu, on 14 March 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

Sorry mate but its true. This is a MMO, the devs have even said so, plainly. And each pilot has a role to play that has comparisons to Fantasy MMOs. I just described it in a way that DDO and WoW players here (and there are quite a few) can understand. And I'm having a little fun with it.

You know what else is an MMO, minecraft.

So, in minecraft, am I a tank or a healer?

(Hint, this would be an MMO-Sim, or MMOFPS, with different roles than an MMORPG.)

And finally, the thing with those games is that there is always a healer to support the tank, and respawn.

[Khobai]

Right... the Atlas' hardpoints are for the most part inferior to the Stalker. I think everyone agrees on that. So if the Atlas is going to have worse weapons than the Stalker, it should at the very least, be able to tank a heck of a lot better. IMO the Atlas needs a skill unlock or something that gives it passive damage reduction to its center torso.

[Josef Nader]

Khobai, on 14 March 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

Right... the Atlas' hardpoints are for the most part inferior to the Stalker. I think everyone agrees on that. So if the Atlas is going to have worse weapons than the Stalker, it should at the very least, be able to tank a heck of a lot better. IMO the Atlas needs a skill unlock or something that gives it passive damage reduction to its center torso.

Or it can have superior twist, larger arms, and more manuverability than the Stalker, allowing good pilots to soak damage better and survive longer under fire.

Oh wait...

[Karenai]

Due to elo your whole thread is pointless.
You can drop in whatever you want and it will have zero influence on the oposing teams mechs.

There are no weight class roles anymore due to elo.

[Royalewithcheese]

Apnu, on 14 March 2013 - 12:14 PM, said:

The Atlas (or any other 100 ton mech really) is the most armored thing on the battle field. Its going to attract attention and keep that attention just by being there. Even if it only packs small lasers, people are gunning for the Atlas. So the pilot might as well embrace that and use it to their advantage. I've had many games being the wing man for an atlas in my HBK-4G. I wait for the Atlas to grab the aggro, because I know they will, and then I focus fire on the Atlas' target to help drop it as quickly as possible. This is no different than the rouges I've played in other MMOs. Its an effective and universal strategy and works great when in a PUG.

What you're describing is closer to the old "hammer and anvil" strategy because facing is involved and you're playing a (presumably) intelligent opponent. The Atlas isn't drawing aggro, it's forcing the other person to commit, because turning your back on an Atlas inside its optimal firing range is a Very Bad Idea. Keep in mind that the Hunchback here isn't the "DPS" because it also does signficantly less damage than the Atlas - it's advantage in this case is mobility.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 14 March 2013 - 01:01 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Or it can have superior twist, larger arms, and more manuverability than the Stalker, allowing good pilots to soak damage better and survive longer under fire.

Oh wait...

Again... torso twisting is situational at best. Torso twisting is not a skill that will ALWAYS save you from dying. What dont you get about that? The best defense for assaults is still cover. Which is the complete opposite of how it should be... Assaults should be able to roam out in the open while light mechs should have to cling to cover. That's how it works in tabletop...

And I really don't see how you can dispute that an Atlas is more survivable than a Light mech... when a Raven can run past a whole enemy team, get shot at by all of them, and get away with yellow armor at worst. Light mechs have survivability that is completely out-of-whack for their tonnage.

Edited by Khobai, 14 March 2013 - 01:17 PM.

[Apnu]

ZnSeventeen, on 14 March 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

You know what else is an MMO, minecraft.

So, in minecraft, am I a tank or a healer?

(Hint, this would be an MMO-Sim, or MMOFPS, with different roles than an MMORPG.)

And finally, the thing with those games is that there is always a healer to support the tank, and respawn.

So? This game doesn't have them (yet). Not every MMO is the same and I'm not saying MWO perfectly fits the "traditional" MMO. But we will get respawns eventually, and maybe we'll see mech repair bays. But none of that diminishes my point that the Atlas fills an obvious tank role that's ubiquitous in MMO games. Minecraft being an obvious exception, but one exception does not tear my point down unless I was speaking in absolutes, I'm not. And Minecraft is a beast unlike anything else out there (except for copycats) I don't think it can be compared to anything else but itself.

You have to admit this is very MMORPG like, or this game will be when all the features are added (if they are added). We have a "pilot" who earns XP and then upgrades himself by spending XP points. There's a Role Warfare and the Community Warfare pillars. Both of which have obvious parallells with MMORPGs.

In the games I've played that have been highly successful are the ones where most of the players on my team find a role to play and fill it. Be it tanking, or DPS, or trying to get a train going, or backstabbing DPS, or trap/intel finding. In the games that have been blow-out failures my team has not filled any roles and just ran round and died one by one.

I think the best we can say is MWO isn't 'exactly' a MMORPG, but then its not 'exactly' a MMO-sim when you count the parts that haven't been released yet.

[Royalewithcheese]

Khobai, on 14 March 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

Assaults should be able to roam out in the open while light mechs should have to cling to cover. That is how it works in tabletop...

Never gonna happen in a mechwarrior game, tho. Positioning and speed have always been important.

[Galathon Redd]

RockWolf, on 13 March 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

Next time you run LRM's, I will team kill you. Your job is not stay at base and Lrm people.

Next time you tell me how to run my Atlas, I will team kill you. Your job is not to lean back and receive blow jobs; I will not give you any.

Even my teammates in the Legion of Doom don't tell me how to build my 'mechs. We kick *** together no matter what we want to run. If a PUG-mate wants to diss my build, I will gladly demonstrate its effectiveness on him, even if I have to dumb-fire LRMs to do it. And if you want to tell me how to build my 'mech, you can pay me to buy the MC to build it.

Lastly, I will not accept the blame for someone else being a dumbass and getting himself killed. My Atlas has 600 Armor, but I've seen Ravens with 200 live longer than me. Work with your team. But don't blame them for your failure - instead, L2P. Hide behind me; stop sticking your head out; keep moving; whatever. But if you blame me for not being dead instead of you, all I'll do is pretend I have the world's smallest violin and the world's goofiest clown to play it at your funeral.