550 replies to this topic

[Mahws]

Kaox Veed, on 15 March 2013 - 05:16 AM, said:

Because they only weigh a half ton! And go read sarna, tell me where it says they put machine guns on mechs to fight other mechs? It doesn't they all are equipped for anti-infantry. Get over the fact and move on! So tired of seeing this whiny BS.

Tell me on Sarna where it says they weren't? Effective against infantry =/= useless against mechs. Or better yet if you're going to bring up the lore, go grab one of the rule books instead of quoting a free to edit wiki article.

[General Taskeen]

CMGrendel, on 15 March 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

As for all these 'experts' quoting Sarna, could you please explain why about half the mechs designed by Solaris for the Arena have multiple machine gun mounts?

Indeed.

These dumb-dumbs still think they are shooting Call of Duty Hand-Held Machine Guns that go 'pew pew' head shot. Where is the 'launch as infantry' mech warrior button? Where is that game anti-infantry dumb-dumbs speak of?

Edited by General Taskeen, 15 March 2013 - 05:34 AM.

[Esplodin]

http://mwomercs.com/...llistic-weapon/

Please support so we can end these threads. I'd be sad to lose the awesome graphics and sound of MG, but there is a greater need for the variants like the 5K to be viable.

[Cole Allard]

Yokaiko, on 15 March 2013 - 05:29 AM, said:

Do you have any idea what a 1106 pound machine would actually do? For reference the 30mm tank buster on a Warthog weighs significantly less.

No...I dont. And its not on my "to know before I die" list.

And people discussing "can you imagine what Caliber X would do to your cat?" are pretty scarry...to say the least.

[Yokaiko]

Cole Allard, on 15 March 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

No...I dont. And its not on my "to know before I die" list.

And people discussing "can you imagine what Caliber X would do to your cat?" are pretty scarry...to say the least.

Yeah, well military weapons systems have been my career my entire adult life, that 30mm gattling gun dumps 2100 rounds a minute and weighes in a 680lbs. But an 1106 pound (half of a metric ton) gun that you have to assume is much higher caliber due to a slower firing rate is a joke.

30mm gattling guns evaporate things. Period.

Edited by Yokaiko, 15 March 2013 - 05:39 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Cole Allard, on 15 March 2013 - 05:35 AM, said:

No...I dont. And its not on my "to know before I die" list.

And people discussing "can you imagine what Caliber X would do to your cat?" are pretty scarry...to say the least.

Then let the big boys talk so we can make the game balanced.

[SchwarzerPeter]

It needs to balanced. Right now the MG produces no heat at all witch means free damage. You relay should consider if you need the weapon in our loadout or not. Not simply 2 dps more for free. And yes, the SL also produces heat and you cannot fire them constantly. If you do you probably added some HS (remember that the DHS upgrade also costs 1.5mio CBills).

For the real-life MG examples: the idea of tank-killing-ballistic guns was already dropped in WW2. The armor was already to good, so that the guns needed a ridiculous size. A 20mm FMJ bullet simply does no damage to a tank at all. If you are lucky you maybe hit some optics outside, but even that is questionable. These guns are for light vehicles / infantry (not light mechs). So it comes pretty close to the role they have right now in the game.

This GAU-8 is actually a auto cannon, it fires explosive bullets. And the whole AC10 aircraft was build around this "light" weapon, which eights actually 1,8tons with ammo.

[FupDup]

Esplodin, on 15 March 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

And here is the crux of the issue IMHO. Hate for the 3L projecting on to all light chassis.

Indeed. A lot of people don't even consider the other lights to exist at all much of the time.

Super-buffed MGs might actually be a nice way for other lights (at least the ballistic ones) to tear apart 3Ls.

Edward Steiner, on 14 March 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

They can't because machine guns in Battletech are an anti infantry weapon that does one damage to a mech. Get an Autocannon if you want to do more damage.

That's Light Machine Guns that do 1 damage...lol. And that's still respectable.

Edited by FupDup, 15 March 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Roland]

The M61 vulcan only weighs 250 pounds, and basically disintegrates anything it shoots at. It fires a RIDICULOUS 6000 rpm. It's the gun they mount in the CIWS, and it turns whatever the target is into dust, literally.

Turns out, if you fire 100 tungsten rounds at something in ONE SECOND, whatever that thing is you just shot at no longer exists.

[SchwarzerPeter]

This gun is also a Autocannon, not an MG. It fires explosive bullets. No FMJ.

[Yokaiko]

SchwarzerPeter, on 15 March 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

It needs to balanced. Right now the MG produces no heat at all witch means free damage. You relay should consider if you need the weapon in our loadout or not. Not simply 2 dps more for free. And yes, the SL also produces heat and you cannot fire them constantly. If you do you probably added some HS (remember that the DHS upgrade also costs 1.5mio CBills).

Yeah, you don't need a 100% uptime with machine guns, nor will a small laser explode and kill your mech, machine gun ammo will.

[color="#000000"]

Quote

[/color]
For the real-life MG examples: the idea of tank-killing-ballistic guns was already dropped in WW2. The armor was already to good, so that the guns needed a ridiculous size. A 20mm FMJ bullet simply does no damage to a tank at all. If you are lucky you maybe hit some optics outside, but even that is questionable. These guns are for light vehicles / infantry (not light mechs). So it comes pretty close to the role they have right now in the game.

The A1 you quote below would like to have a word with you

Quote

This GAU-8 is actually a auto cannon, it fires explosive bullets. And the whole AC10 aircraft was build around this "light" weapon, which eights actually 1,8tons with ammo.

By definition any full repeating ballistic gun is actually a machine gun, semi-auto and load on fire ballistics are rifles. a .50 cal would fall under the the auto-cannon definition, if can fire HE rounds as well.

They are not mutually exclusive terms.

[Cole Allard]

General Taskeen, on 15 March 2013 - 05:39 AM, said:

Then let the big boys talk so we can make the game balanced.

Big boys? You? Big balls, but thats all dude

Get the MG's balanced, do your thing...good luck on that.

[Mavairo]

Heeden, on 14 March 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

As fun as that experiment sounds my MGs only weight 2 tons, leaving me 7 tons short for the experiment. My dakkaphract has 2 AC-10s (24 tons) that should equal the DPS of 2 tons of 2 dps MG, or I could load up my CTF-1X with 5 MPLas (14 tons), hopefully I'll have enough heatsinks to sustain DPS. Or maybe someone could load up a Swayback with 8 SLas, that should be a similar mech if you imagine it going at 150kph with a smaller profile and 6 jump-jets.

In the end I took a 5 MPLas Jenner with 10+1 DHS and a single JJ (fun fact - the Training Grounds are bugged and give you full JJ benefits). It's a nice build if you don't mind shutting down every 3rd volley, after which your effective dps drops to around 2 as you wait for cooldown. I accidentally took it into a match, managed to cause some serious hurt on a few bigger mechs but only totaled 360ish for the whole match; partly because it was Alpine and I took a long route to come from behind, partly because of the heat and largely because of the two 3Ls who came from nowhere whilst I was otherwise engaged.

So, to answer your question, yes I do think 8 sustained DPS is that insane.

You can fit a UAC on and have ammo for it, and it's not like the 5K can actually be armed with multiple energy weapons anyway. Seriously give it a shot.

I'll tell you this, 3 MGs on a 5N at 2 DPS a gun wouldn't even be that great either. And it has the tonnage to have Real Weapons afterwards. In no small part due to the close range of the weapon.

Right now an SRM6 deals 3.75 dps. As we all know both the Jenner, and the 3L can mount 1 to 2 of these easily. The 3L right there can have 7.5 dps just in his rockets and still has room for Lasers. Pushing him past the 4X with multiple machine guns easily. Hell it pushes past a quad MG spider comfortably too for that matter.

Your also forgetting the AC10 on your cataphract is doing that damage instantaneously, it's also doing that damage at far far greater ranges. Sustained DPS is great on paper. But in game? It's very over rated on these forums. Burst in MWO > Sustained, and no matter what the MG is still sustained damage. It requires more accuracy and knife fighting range, in order to use effectively even at 2 DPS.

Your MGs literally stop hurting the enemy (not like they do anyway....) at 100 meters. Sure you can say "but I move at 150 kph!" But there are heavies that move at 95+ I can easily play keep away, or soccer against a little spider, and knock him to pieces either while he's air born or trying to face hump me.

If we can deal with Srm 6 ravens, and Jenners I am pretty sure we can deal with a spider. If we can put down A1 splat cats, we can put down a 5K spider.

Also you're supposed to chain fire that many lasers I know quite a few guys that could rock a 6 laser jenner and not over heat once. Their damage and kill counts were insane by the end of a given match.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c4618db6993f798 this can easily take a 5k 2 DPS per gun spider. It has something the spider lacks, Burst Damage. It's also something I'd immediately be putting my mechs guns towards to put down if I saw it on the field.

It has a 40 Damage Alpha Strike. SRMs as we all know at ranges under 100m, are very pin point accurate. This raven has the equivalent firepower as a dual AC20 vomit kitty. While moving at 150 kph. And should the user so choose, he could always drop tag, for ECM and not lose a single point of burst damage in the process.

You're forgetting several key factors here. 1: Spiders are incredibly squishy, 2 the lack of Burst damage means your time on target has to be much higher (which meansit adversely affects defensive capability on your part) I know, keeping MGs on a target for one full second does not sound like much, but on a mech that would be using that many MGs, that's easily the difference between eating it from some jerk that's packing AC10s, LLs and an SRm6, or getting the hell out of dodge so he doesn't bend you over. 3: you have to keep all of those guns on target multiple times.

8 DPS isn't that scary. If it were, everyone that could would be running around with 2 AC2s. Or using Vomit Kitties. Infact just ask the guys that tried the 2 AC2 lulz build. We can tell you it really wasn't all that great.
Even if 2 DPS was too much they could always add heat to it, or they could lower it to 1.5. Or both. As it stands right now? the Mg is a terribad weapon and PGI is bad, and should feel bad, and people defending the MG right now should feel bad, because they are bad. Hell 9 sustained DPS isn't that terrifying either depending on the chassis. (2 UAC5 Cicada that still moves at 115 kph)

1.5 DPS per gun puts it within striking range of several mechs (assuming they are built right) including a 2 AC5 Cicada. (and AC5s suck)

Start at 2 and work your way back from there. It's certainly better than being dead set on the weapon being a Sub 1.25 DPS weapon, that has explosive ammunition and literally doesn't work past 100 meters.

Edited by Mavairo, 15 March 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[Squigles]

I've posted this before (in this very thread no less), but for those who insist on arguing without being informed, here it is again.

http://www.sarna.net...echnology#Armor

Go read that, it's basically a direct excerpt from the Tech Manual for those without. Battlemech armor, in places, is about as thick as 1 of my fingers, some places may be as thick as 2, it's also designed to ablate.

Comparing it to modern day armor is a derp comparison, a machine gun would torch the armor off a 'mech because the 'mechs armor is DESIGNED to break apart, hence ablate......if you had inches thick armor on something with the surface area of a mech it would be called a turret...because it wouldn't move anymore.

[Esplodin]

SchwarzerPeter, on 15 March 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

It needs to balanced. Right now the MG produces no heat at all witch means free damage. You relay should consider if you need the weapon in our loadout or not. Not simply 2 dps more for free. And yes, the SL also produces heat and you cannot fire them constantly. If you do you probably added some HS (remember that the DHS upgrade also costs 1.5mio CBills).

There is a cost - limited ammo, and it goes boom if critted - same as all other ballistics. Energy is balanced by heat, balistics are balanced by ammo. The machine gun and ammo is the same thing as a small laser with a heat sink, but trades heat for limited ammo.

SchwarzerPeter, on 15 March 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

For the real-life MG examples:

Sorry, stopped reading there. This is imagination land. (and I've worked with 25mm cannons, 50cal MG, C4, etc.)

SchwarzerPeter, on 15 March 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

This GAU-8 is actually a auto cannon, it fires explosive bullets. And the whole AC10 aircraft was build around this "light" weapon, which eights actually 1,8tons with ammo.

From Sarna, which everyone likes to quote. Lotsa mini-guns, gatling guns, etc here in the Machine Gun description fluff:


Models

Gatling Gun 20mm Ares Quikscell Company
Armstrong MiniGun Ramora United Outworlders Corporation
Blackwell B75 Outreach Blackwell Heavy Industries
Bulldog Minigun Ingersoll Bulldog Enterprises
Double-Gun New Avalon Achernar BattleMechs
Coventry Light Autogun Coventry Coventry Metal Works
GM MiniGun Salem General Motors
Johnston MiniGun New Syrtis Johnston Industries
Kicker Skye Cyclops Incorporated
LFN Linblad Illiushin Vandenberg Mechanized Industries
MainFire MiniGun Belladonna Cal-Boeing of Dorwinion
Maxi Mini Menke Ceres Metals Industries
Mydron Mini-Gun Bithinia Bithinian Ballistics
ScatterGun Light New Earth New Earth Trading Company
SperryBrowning Hun Ho LexaTech Industries
SureFire MiniGun Coventry Coventry Metal Works
Voelkers 200 Pinard Vandenberg Mechanized Industries

Edited by Esplodin, 15 March 2013 - 06:05 AM.

[SchwarzerPeter]

Ok im not in the TT game, i just play MWO. And i did not find any description for being the MG a AC, my bad.

Yeah, all i was trying to say is that real life examples have nothing to do with the game

The MG should just be a balanced alternative weapon.

[General Taskeen]

SchwarzerPeter, on 15 March 2013 - 05:48 AM, said:

This gun is also a Autocannon, not an MG. It fires explosive bullets. No FMJ.

Sigh... its just called MACHINE GUN, because it has an UNFORTUNATE NAME APPLIED TO IT.

Its not a Call of Duty MG-42 that you hold in your hand. For people with an IQ lower than 80, The exit to the thread is that way ->

Edited by General Taskeen, 15 March 2013 - 06:06 AM.

[MayGay]

General Taskeen, on 14 March 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Up damage to .6 or .8
Give it a COOL DOWN slighter lower than that of an AC/2
Ammo Between 200 or 600

There ya go Devs. All is right in the universe.

Also, BT MG's weighing Half a Ton, are the equivalent of two GAU-8 cannons

Here is what one looks like



That's right, Mechs ******* die. Twice.



And there is the Piranha mounting 12 Gau-8 sized Clan "machine guns,"

and that is the definition of an AC/2 in the TT

[General Taskeen]

James Griffin, on 15 March 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

and that is the definition of an AC/2 in the TT

No, that is the definition of an MG that did damage to armor in Mech Warrior 3. Get used to it.

[RG Notch]

I'm just curious for all the real world weapon folks... if the MWO MG is equivalent of the GAU 8 auto cannon, why is it ok for it to have 90m range while the GAU 8 range is 1200M for effective and 3600m max? Or are we simply cherry picking what real world characteristics we want?
I think MGs need a damage buff, but please stop with the real world examples on both sides. It simply doesn't work. It just makes people look as dumb as those comparing it to a .50 cal.
All that's needs discussing is game balance, all the rest is nonsense from both sides. If you want a useless weapon support the status quo because you think we don't need more viable systems. If you want damage buffed so MGs are a valid choice then argue that. Real world or fluff from the board game is pointless.