463 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

OpCentar, on 15 March 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

No it wouldn't if you didn't boat 9xMLas or whatever that popular build is.

Mix LL, ML and some other energy weapons and you wouldn't get any heat penalty.

Where are you going to do this? 6 of 9 hardpoints are right torso.

[Royalewithcheese]

OpCentar, on 15 March 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

No it wouldn't if you didn't boat 9xMLas or whatever that popular build is.

Mix LL, ML and some other energy weapons and you wouldn't get any heat penalty.

8xMdLas is the official version of the swayback, though. There are a lot of stock mechs that would become even worse than they already are with a boating heat penalty.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

I think the main issue is combining variants (which were uncommon) with unlimited customizability (which didn't exist).

The swayback was not the common battlefield version of the hunchback. Yet in this game due to the mechanics, unlimited availability and unlimited customization, it can be more common that the normal variant.

Really though in the end though.

Is the one button alpha'ing good for MWO longterm?

I mean for a game that want's to be an e-sport.

Is it exciting to watch a splatcat do the same thing over and over?

[Royalewithcheese]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 March 2013 - 06:27 AM, said:

I think the main issue is combining variants (which were uncommon) with unlimited customizability (which didn't exist).

The swayback was not the common battlefield version of the hunchback. Yet in this game due to the mechanics, unlimited availability and unlimited customization, it can be more common that the normal variant.

Welcome to mechwarrior

[sycocys]

Is it exciting that no one takes advantage of the huge downsides to boat builds?

[Karl Streiger]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 March 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

I think the main issue is combining variants (which were uncommon) with unlimited customizability (which didn't exist).

The swayback was not the common battlefield version of the hunchback. Yet in this game due to the mechanics, unlimited availability and unlimited customization, it can be more common that the normal variant.

Swayback is just a example of a cannon boat mech ... and by far the 4G is more superior. But in MWO the 4G is the "worst" Hunchback... its stock armament is less terrifying. its hardpoints have the worst layout....(what to do with 3 ballistic slots...when the lightest weapon is the 6ton AC2...the useless machine gun doesn't count)

[Lootee]

OpCentar, on 15 March 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

No it wouldn't if you didn't boat 9xMLas or whatever that popular build is.

Mix LL, ML and some other energy weapons and you wouldn't get any heat penalty.

You are aware that hunchback comes straight off the showroom floor with 8 medium lasers right ?

[Cferre]

Steemship, on 14 March 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

The more I try to play this game, the more boats I see. It is either SRM boats, LRM boats, or PPC boats and they are really ruining the game. Mechs are simply dying too fast; the game is feeling more and more like an arcade shooter than a strategy game. I'm getting to a point where I feel like the game needs further mech restrictions (Like engine restriction for the 3L) to make balanced builds more viable and get mechs playing the rolls they were intended (3L was never meant to be a brawler, Catapult not meant to be a brawler)

I have no idea what to do about assaults though. Lore assaults are designed to be able to attack at all ranges to achieve balance, but with any sort of customization, people are going to specialize in short or long range and dominate the hybrid assaults.

Any thoughts aside from me taking a break from the game?

Boaters are GIMPED one way or another. So stop crying about a non existing issue.

[Lootee]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 March 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

I think the main issue is combining variants (which were uncommon) with unlimited customizability (which didn't exist).

The swayback was not the common battlefield version of the hunchback. Yet in this game due to the mechanics, unlimited availability and unlimited customization, it can be more common that the normal variant.

Really though in the end though.

Is the one button alpha'ing good for MWO longterm?

I mean for a game that want's to be an e-sport.

Is it exciting to watch a splatcat do the same thing over and over?

The Masakari Prime WAS the most common variant and it's basically the same as the 6PPC stalker everyone is complaining about. 4 Clan ERPPCs deal 60 damage and generate 60 heat just like the stalker. Both mechs are 85 tons and as it's one of the iconic mechs of the Clan Invasion you can count on it eventually being added to the game.

Boating isn't the real issue. The 7x damage bug from missiles and pinpoint convergence that lets you hit a single mech component with 100% of your firepower is the real problem.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

PanchoTortilla, on 15 March 2013 - 06:42 AM, said:

The Masakari Prime WAS the most common variant and it's basically the same as the 6PPC stalker everyone is complaining about. 4 Clan ERPPCs deal 60 damage and generate 60 heat just like the stalker. Both mechs are 85 tons and as it's one of the iconic mechs of the Clan Invasion you can count on it eventually being added to the game.

Boating isn't the real issue. The 7x damage bug from missiles and pinpoint convergence that lets you hit a single mech component with 100% of your firepower is the real problem.

Don't come quoting clans. I am not even at the point where I want to think about what the Clans will do to this game.

[Royalewithcheese]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 March 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Don't come quoting clans. I am not even at the point where I want to think about what the Clans will do to this game.

Not just the clans haha. Considering that armor's doubled in MWO, stock Awesome = 6PPC Stalker, but with fewer heat issues.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Karl Streiger, on 15 March 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Swayback is just a example of a cannon boat mech ... and by far the 4G is more superior. But in MWO the 4G is the "worst" Hunchback... its stock armament is less terrifying. its hardpoints have the worst layout....(what to do with 3 ballistic slots...when the lightest weapon is the 6ton AC2...the useless machine gun doesn't count)

Yes it's an example of a mech that was rare in the actual universe of the game. And is overpresented in MW:O. Just like a Catapult with 4 SRM6's was the exception in the universe and the rule in MW:O.

But it still comes back to is this current games model going to make money and stick around long term?

I'm not convinced because of all these issues. And yes, unlimited customizability is one of those issues, compounded by 50 thousand other issues the devs can't seem to handle.

[OpCentar]

Zyllos, on 15 March 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

Boats themselves are not the issue...weapon convergence allowing the ability of boats to be magnified is the issue.

I don't see how you can fix player targeting skills, in TT there's a roll to calculate hit location. In MWO whoever has more luck or skill to hit a single point on the enemy mech deals more effective damage.

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

8xMdLas is the official version of the swayback, though. There are a lot of stock mechs that would become even worse than they already are with a boating heat penalty.

If we don't have true DHS and many other modified mechanics from the original rules then there's no reason not to go with a heat penalty for boats.

I think that also replies to all others who have reminded me of the canon 4P configuration.


I am looking at this from a gameplay balance point of view and for that there are many variables which could be modified. But the basis would have to be a deterrent for boating in the form of increased heat buildup.

The alternatives are specific per chassis nerfs which limit boat builds but also ruin the chassis for everyone elso who are running a balanced loadout. Or even worse, nerfing specific weapons which ruin them for everyone.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Not just the clans haha. Considering that armor's doubled in MWO, stock Awesome = 6PPC Stalker, but with fewer heat issues.

Yeah stock awesome is one of those mechs that I would consider a canon boat. That was common. No debates there.

Funny how it sucks so bad in this game.

[Lootee]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 March 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

Don't come quoting clans. I am not even at the point where I want to think about what the Clans will do to this game.

Like it or not, they are coming. Hardly a week goes by without someone asking on the forum where is the Madcat/Vulture/Masakari/Daishi. Since their weapons are so much lighter thus equal more 'boating' potential the issue needs to be solved now, before they appear.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 15 March 2013 - 06:49 AM.

[Gaan Cathal]

OpCentar, on 15 March 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

No it wouldn't if you didn't boat 9xMLas or whatever that popular build is.

Mix LL, ML and some other energy weapons and you wouldn't get any heat penalty.

Because under that system 8MLAS and 1SLAS would be much better off? That's the stock 4SP, not 'whatever that popular build is'. Swapping 1SLAS for 1MLAS makes it immune to your 'moar heat for certain builds' rule?

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 March 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

"Designed to boat".

What does that mean? As I said, this game throws things out the window with mech design because it allows for unlimited customization.

One SRM/6 Catapult for a specific person, that only has 4 SRM/6's, does not a boat make.

The A1 boats LRMs stock. Quite clearly so.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 March 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

I think you guys grasp at straws when you are like "OH HEY GUYS LOOK SOME RANDOM PERSON CREATED ONE VERSION OF THE HUNCHBACK WITH 8 MEDIUM LASERS THAT WAS ALMOST NEVER USED, BOATING IS GREAT".

The Hunchback -4P isn't a custom variant. It's common enough to have a widely used nickname.


The Catapult has boat variants. So does the Hunchback, Naginata, Arrow, Longbow, Bane, Jenner (JR7-F), Dart, Nova Cat, etc, etc.

There are several common trends with boating, firstly that a lot of canon/TT mechs would be boats, except that their ammo-dependent primary weapons are supplemented with ammo-independent lasers. This happens in MWO, most LRM/SRM Stalkers will carry a few tons of MLAS for the inevitable out-of-ammo situation, and the only reason Splatcat pilots don't is that they don't have a hardpoint, and moving to a C4 sacrifices a third of their primary armament, making the trade-off not worth it. Given an energy hardpoint or two, we'd see lasers on them. Secondly, the large array of multi-range weapons appear to be more associated with TT Assault mechs, presumably because they can carry a significant amount more weaponry than they can dissipate the heat from, allowing for heavy mech levels of firepower at multiple ranges. Most canon boats seem to be medium/heavy mechs, with a fair number of laserboating lights (for fairly obvious ammo reasons).

The reason I bring up the canon/TT boats is because when I ask 'why do you object to boats' the most common response is 'it's just not BTech'.

[Yokaiko]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 15 March 2013 - 06:48 AM, said:

Yeah stock awesome is one of those mechs that I would consider a canon boat. That was common. No debates there.

Funny how it sucks so bad in this game.

Double armor + 3.3 times the firing rate.

In TT a Awesome was stock was quite capable of one shotting heavies, and it didn't really run hot....

....neither did a swayback.

[Royalewithcheese]

OpCentar, on 15 March 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

The alternatives are specific per chassis nerfs which limit boat builds but also ruin the chassis for everyone elso who are running a balanced loadout. Or even worse, nerfing specific weapons which ruin them for everyone.

What makes boating inherently worse or more unbalanced (gameplay-wise) than a "balanced loadout?" The 3-L has a balanced loadout haha.

[Mazzyplz]

Quote

game needs to address boating

no.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Royalewithcheese, on 15 March 2013 - 06:53 AM, said:

What makes boating inherently worse or more unbalanced (gameplay-wise) than a "balanced loadout?" The 3-L has a balanced loadout haha.

Really? You're going to use ECM/Streaks as an example?