122 replies to this topic

[Thirdstar]

Ryvucz, on 16 March 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

More of a perception issue.

I feel that this is adequately stamped Beta.

It is still being tested, we are helping them find bugs, do server stress tests and most of all, giving feedback.

"But they taksies our monsies!"

Yeah? So do kickstarter programs, and a lot of those haven't even launched yet or allowed any kind of testing.

(Posted because I do not read BOLD n3wb gripes, also, I hate streaks)

I did mention in the OP that it's a perception issue, but you can't just brush that aside. Games live and die purely on Perception. Do you have any idea what kind of Word Of Mouth MWO has already gathered? It's not good.

I find the testing part of Beta here inadequate. Where are the surveys? Both ingame and out? Why is patch cycle longer now? Why don't they just break things more often? Is it because they don't want to anger paying customers?

[Serapth]

Tickdoff Tank, on 16 March 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

They will get it fixed when they can, if you think you can do better, then fix the code yourself and show us how it is done.

Oh stop with the trite little line.

If the game was open sourced, then perhaps it might have some merit. You have no idea what many of us do, or what our abilities are.

[Ryvucz]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

I did mention in the OP that it's a perception issue, but you can't just brush that aside. Games live and die purely on Perception. Do you have any idea what kind of Word Of Mouth MWO has already gathered? It's not good.

I find the testing part of Beta here inadequate. Where are the surveys? Both ingame and out? Why is patch cycle longer now? Why don't they just break things more often? Is it because they don't want to anger paying customers?

They have a lot of polls for their Known Issues to take part in.

They also have a lot of information in their Command Chair posts.

Stop being a jack and look into things.

Do you need your hand to be held to do these things?

[Tickdoff Tank]

valkyrie, on 16 March 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Wrong-o. We do have a say. The fact that you can pay into this game right now is a double-edged sword. On one hand, we're paying (in some cases) PGI for an incomplete game. On the other, all we have to do to make them listen to use is stop paying, and waste their money by continuing to play for free.

PGI effectively opened up voting on their game design by opening up the pay system. It's now a democracy, and we vote in cash. That's the only good thing about the pay system right now - we now have leverage over them in the form of their paychecks.

Oh, and there's a definition for beta, one that strongly suggests that this is the time in which any issues with game design, balance, and other things, are all open to critique by the general public, and should be critiqued. Through adversity, we will make this game strong.

Of course we have a say, because they allow it. We do not have a RIGHT to a say simply because we are playing. People that are founders were granted access to CB, everyone is allowed to access OB. But the devs are free to listen or ignore ANYTHING THAT WE SAY, for any reason or no reason. It is their game, not ours. Just because you have paid money to play does not give you the right to determine how the game is developed. You always have the option of not playing or further supporting the game. And you may even be able to get a refund (not sure about that, but I hope you could if you really want one)

Edit: You are absolutely correct that the game is open for criticism, and there are PLENTY of criticisms to be made. I am just pointing out that the only "say" that we have is what they allow us to have. They do not have anything forcing them to listen to us, but the devs are reasonable people that want the game to succeed, and the player base can quite often have important things to point out (the splash damage thread is an excellent example), but they are in no way required to listen to us. It is just intelligent for them to do so.

It reminds me of the old saying "God answers every prayer, even if the answer is 'no'." (I am not trying to bring religion into this, just the idea behind the saying)

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 16 March 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[valkyrie]

Tickdoff Tank, on 16 March 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Of course we have a say, because they allow it. We do not have a RIGHT to a say simply because we are playing. People that are founders were granted access to CB, everyone is allowed to access OB. But the devs are free to listen or ignore ANYTHING THAT WE SAY, for any reason or no reason. It is their game, not ours. Just because you have paid money to play does not give you the right to determine how the game is developed. You always have the option of not playing or further supporting the game. And you may even be able to get a refund (not sure about that, but I hope you could if you really want one)

They're free to ignore us, and say we don't have rights. It doesn't change the fact that we have POWER in the form of financial control, so they can keep ignoring us right up until their game dies because they didn't give the fans the game they wanted, so they left.

Saying "well we can take our ball and go home!" kinda screws you in the long run when there's nobody left to play with.

[Thirdstar]

Tickdoff Tank, on 16 March 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

They will get it fixed when they can, if you think you can do better, then fix the code yourself and show us how it is done.

I was waiting for this tired old line to be posted. Figured it would be you too.

You chose a terrible example in CoH. You see I played that game from Beta to its death and one thing I always admired about the Devs there was that if they couldn't do something quickly they told you why.

I won't say PGI hasn't improved a bit, the command chair post about vision modes was the sort of thing I've been hoping they transition to. But their track record up until now? Not impressive. And don't get me started on the latest Ask The Devs. A litany of 'no plans' is no way to communicate with the playerbase.

[Thuzel]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

I did mention in the OP that it's a perception issue, but you can't just brush that aside. Games live and die purely on Perception. Do you have any idea what kind of Word Of Mouth MWO has already gathered? It's not good.

I find the testing part of Beta here inadequate. Where are the surveys? Both ingame and out? Why is patch cycle longer now? Why don't they just break things more often? Is it because they don't want to anger paying customers?

I suspect the truth is what it would seem to be. PGI wanted to start their regular business model to increase revenue so they could hire people. The unfortunate truth, though, is that the game was nowhere near ready. So, they pushed the "beta" label to try and excuse any shortcomings and try to shield it from reviews while starting to take money. Anyone else remember when they added the "beta" tag to the MWO logo? It was right when they opened up to the general public, and that's not a coincidence.

In the end, though, it doesn't really matter. As you said, games live and die by their reputations, and the general populace doesn't give a crap if it's in "beta" or not. If it sucks, it sucks.

Edited by Thuzel, 16 March 2013 - 09:52 PM.

[Aesthir]

The reason that "It's Beta" doesn't fly as an excuse for anything is the fact the game will NEVER not be in beta.

They're never going to reach a point where they could say "This game is finished and complete, ready to pack up and ship out to consumers."

What we have right now, this is pretty much the final version of the game. We have 2 game modes and they release a new mech or map every so often along with tons of cockpit geegaws, paints, and silly hats for everyone to buy.

[Thirdstar]

Ryvucz, on 16 March 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

They have a lot of polls for their Known Issues to take part in.

They also have a lot of information in their Command Chair posts.

Stop being a jack and look into things.

Do you need your hand to be held to do these things?

Huh?

Also a forum poll is not a in-game/email survey, that you draw a parallel shows you don't know what you're talking about.

[Ryvucz]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

Huh?

Also a forum poll is not a in-game/email survey, that you draw a parallel shows you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm sorry, I will move along then.

I have included a survey for you to help me understand what I got wrong.

How would you rate my understanding? 1 being awesome and 10 being awesome. Any number in between does not count.

How would you rate my insight? N/A I am not looking for this response from you.

That sums up my survey for you, good hunting!

[Thirdstar]

Ryvucz, on 16 March 2013 - 09:54 PM, said:

I'm sorry, I will move along then.

I have included a survey for you to help me understand what I got wrong.

How would you rate my understanding? 1 being awesome and 10 being awesome. Any number in between does not count.

How would you rate my insight? N/A I am not looking for this response from you.

That sums up my survey for you, good hunting!

Um okay.

[Thuzel]

Aesthir, on 16 March 2013 - 09:51 PM, said:

The reason that "It's Beta" doesn't fly as an excuse for anything is the fact the game will NEVER not be in beta.

They're never going to reach a point where they could say "This game is finished and complete, ready to pack up and ship out to consumers."

What we have right now, this is pretty much the final version of the game. We have 2 game modes and they release a new mech or map every so often along with tons of cockpit geegaws, paints, and silly hats for everyone to buy.

It's called a perpetual beta when they do that.

To be fair though, aside from some obvious cash grabs, it does feel like they're still working on a meta portion for the game (hopefully in the form of CW).

[DirePhoenix]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 08:12 PM, said:

Here's an excerpt from a Betawatch post on Massively.com

"Massively considers a game to be in open testing if it has open, public signups and plans for a server wipe before its official launch. Self-described "open beta" MMOs that have soft-launched with functioning real-money cash shops will not be listed."

http://massively.joy...arch-9-15-2013/

So why is DUST 514, SMITE and Salem on their open beta list? Why is Firefall still on the closed beta section? All of those games have active in-game stores (with Salem being the most heinous, as that game has a permadeath mechanic that means other players can not only loot your corpse but also take the things that you bought with real money), Firefall not only has an in-game store, but also in order to "sign up" for their beta all you need to do is make a forum account. It's technically an open beta with an active in-game cash shop already.

[Thirdstar]

Thuzel, on 16 March 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

It's called a perpetual beta when they do that.

To be fair though, aside from some obvious cash grabs, it does feel like they're still working on a meta portion for the game (hopefully in the form of CW).

They have to develop 'some' kind of CW. It was a central pillar that managed to convince so many to shell out for Founders. To not do so would be PR suicide. So they will most certainly launch CW at some point in the future.

However, we're gonna get WoT Clan Wars instead of super deep, strategic, supply lines, drop ships, blah blah blah. People WILL be disappointed, it cannot possibly live up to hype created by both PGI and the players.

[Noth]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

They have to develop 'some' kind of CW. It was a central pillar that managed to convince so many to shell out for Founders. To not do so would be PR suicide. So they will most certainly launch CW at some point in the future.

However, we're gonna get WoT Clan Wars instead of super deep, strategic, supply lines, drop ships, blah blah blah. People WILL be disappointed, it cannot possibly live up to hype created by both PGI and the players.

Anyone who expected all that got theirnown expectations up. I've been expecting WoT clan wars on a larger scale since i first heard and read their ideas.

Edited by Noth, 16 March 2013 - 10:16 PM.

[Gaan Cathal]

Noth, on 16 March 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Anyone who expected all that got theirnown expectations up. I've been expecting WoT clan wars on a larger scale since i first heard and read their ideas.

This. Anyone who's seriously been expecting EVE-With-Mechs is simply delusional. Not 'recently expecting'. If you laid down Founders money expecting that, you duped yourself.

[Ialti]

Hawkwings, on 16 March 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

I can release a ****** terrible game tomorrow that is obviously not complete, and I can call it a beta. Does that make it a beta?

Just because PGI calls this game a beta does not mean that it is.

Wrong. Just because you say you're right, doesn't make you so.

[Thirdstar]

Noth, on 16 March 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

Anyone who expected all that got theirnown expectations up. I've been expecting WoT clan wars on a larger scale since i first heard and read their ideas.

Me too.

There's a significant part of the crowd in organized units who have....unrealistic ideas of what CW is going to be. Most of whom are Founders.

[Thuzel]

Thirdstar, on 16 March 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

They have to develop 'some' kind of CW. It was a central pillar that managed to convince so many to shell out for Founders. To not do so would be PR suicide. So they will most certainly launch CW at some point in the future.

However, we're gonna get WoT Clan Wars instead of super deep, strategic, supply lines, drop ships, blah blah blah. People WILL be disappointed, it cannot possibly live up to hype created by both PGI and the players.

That's a huge part of what I think a lot of people miss. PGI has pushed the product as being in beta and being incomplete, despite what they may have alluded to here and there. They've effectively been selling us a product "as is", and so they aren't really obligated to do anything at all. I'm NOT saying that's right ethically speaking, but that's where we are. PGI has been selling us this game as it is, and if push comes to shove, they can easily fall back on that.

I kind of agree with you though. My main concern for MWO is how much of it they've been commoditizing along with a lack of information about a more substantial game mode. Back when they were pushing the founder's program, the feeling was that we'd have that this deep overarching game. But that message has been somewhat dropped, and everything that's come out in the last few months is geared towards a more shallow experience.

I just hope they've been keeping it under wraps, and that we really do have a good CW experience on the way.

Gaan Cathal, on 16 March 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

This. Anyone who's seriously been expecting EVE-With-Mechs is simply delusional. Not 'recently expecting'. If you laid down Founders money expecting that, you duped yourself.

True, but there's a huge middle ground between EVE and deathmatch. I think a lot of people are expecting MWO to land somewhere in there.

[Thirdstar]

Thuzel, on 16 March 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:

That's a huge part of what I think a lot of people miss. PGI has pushed the product as being in beta and being incomplete, despite what they may have alluded to here and there. They've effectively been selling us a product "as is", and so they aren't really obligated to do anything at all. I'm NOT saying that's right ethically speaking, but that's where we are. PGI has been selling us this game as it is, and if push comes to shove, they can easily fall back on that.

I kind of agree with you though. My main concern for MWO is how much of it they've been commoditizing along with a lack of information about a more substantial game mode. Back when they were pushing the founder's program, the feeling was that we'd have that this deep overarching game. But that message has been somewhat dropped, and everything that's come out in the last few months is geared towards a more shallow experience.

I just hope they've been keeping it under wraps, and that we really do have a good CW experience on the way.

An excellent post.

I am concerned that there just seems to be a lack of long term goals beyond the very nebulous CW (about which we have zero information). Also, there's just not enough BETA here, as i've mentioned.

Someone previously brought up Firefall in an unrelated point, so i'll use that game as an example. Do you guys know they've reworked the entire leveling and crafting system once already and are planning to do it again soon? How about the Warframe Devs? They're planning to scrap skilltrees/artifact/loot drop system ENTIRELY and remake it from scratch.

Where is that sort of actual testing/iteration as regards to MWO? I'm not talking about bugs, I'm talking about gameplay systems. Shouldn't they be stretched to the limits? Tested, broken, reworked?