443 replies to this topic

[Orzorn]

Serapth, on 18 March 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

When grinding cbills, I play either Ilya or Flame for the cbill boost ( as my founders is the HBK-4g, which IS the worse mech in the game that doesn't rhyme with um..... prider. ) and I run a 350xl Flame with 4xLL, 2xLL/2xELL (since Alpine) or 4xML + gauss, all with max armor and all three builds work quite well. You just have to know not to face hump and to run away when the situation isn't ideal. At 103km/h, it can outrun anything that can hurt it, and can easily kill anything that can catch it, even 3ls now that they are hittable. As a pure pug, I average over 300 damage with it, used to be over 400 until I switched to gauss ( lower damage, more kills ). Keep in mind, that includes 0 damage cap races, disconnects and all the other joys that come with playing this game. I coincidentally average 370 damage in my Ilya at this point.

Where it all falls on its face is when we factor in the D-DC... where I average 533 damage. But then, I should, and a Dragon shouldn't be expected to do the same damage as an Atlas, like it currently is.

Yes, I do excellent in pugs as well (my average the other day was about 600 damage per game), but I'm speaking of 8 man play. Many mechs can be good in 8 mans, even the Spider can pull 600+ damage with a lot of work, but when you attempt that in 8 mans, someone can put out way more than your damage with comparable speeds WITH jump jets, it just isn't worth the extra effort, as well as the worse hit boxes.

I'm glad you can have fun with your Dragon in pub games. I do to, its my favorite mech hands down, but it just isn't in the cards for it to be of much use in 8 mans right now, other than perhaps taking it in a tonnage restricted situation, which even that can be avoided with careful mech selection.

[Trauglodyte]

xDeityx, on 18 March 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Just playing Devil's Advocate - the speed could be the difference between being in position to get that alpha off and being 500m away or on the other side of the hill.

You're absolutely right. But, like I said, on Forrest Colony, River City, and Frozen City, there is no running away. You might outrun the guy that is chasing you but the second you move, you're immediately in the kill zone of someone else. Now, Alpine and Caustic would def be different.

Btw, I'm still kind of pissed at you for sniping me the other night in Alpine. GREAT move you guys made going behind the base and forcing us down into it. Perfect pincer move.

[Zen Hachetaki]

Oh and one other thing... just wait until they bring collisions back in... Bowling season!

[Lykaon]

The problems as I see them are with cusp mechs (mechs that are the lowest tonnage for their weight class)

40 ton mechs are only marginally better than a 35 ton mech yet not potent enough to hang with the other mechs in the medium weight class.Same situation occurs with 60 ton and 80 ton chassis.

These cusp mechs usually end up with a role or play style belonging to the previous mech weight teir.

Cicadas play like 40 ton lights,Dragons fill a role very similar to medium chassis and an Awesome is simply out classed for firepower by an 85 ton Stalker so the awesome is gennerally bult as a speedy weapon platform all be it with fewer weapons than an assault class mech should carry.

In many cases this mediocrity syndrome is caused by hardpoint allotments.
Imagine if there was a cicada chassis that allowed for 2 missile hardpoints 3 or more energy hardpoints and had ECM.This cicada would replace the Raven 3L because it does all the Raven's work with more armor.

I Already replaced my Hunchback 4G with a Flame hero mech.The Flame does everything the Hunchback does but can be faster and more heavily armored and has the added quirk of a high mounted left torso ballistic hardpoint.

Overall I would say the Dragon chassis have some merit when used as a big medium rather than compared to their heavy mech brothers.

[peve]

My AS7-D-DC: W/L 2.9, K/D 2.83
My DRG-1C: W/L 0.96, K/D 2.65

Nothing wrong with the Dragon. Except it gets teamed up with inadequates :=

Edited by peve, 18 March 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Serapth]

Orzorn, on 18 March 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Yes, I do excellent in pugs as well (my average the other day was about 600 damage per game), but I'm speaking of 8 man play. Many mechs can be good in 8 mans, even the Spider can pull 600+ damage with a lot of work, but when you attempt that in 8 mans, someone can put out way more than your damage with comparable speeds WITH jump jets, it just isn't worth the extra effort, as well as the worse hit boxes.

I'm glad you can have fun with your Dragon in pub games. I do to, its my favorite mech hands down, but it just isn't in the cards for it to be of much use in 8 mans right now, other than perhaps taking it in a tonnage restricted situation, which even that can be avoided with careful mech selection.

Yes, but the same is true for any mech that isn't Atlas, Catapult, Raven and possibly Ilya and the Stalker.

This is because the 8man game is broken, not necisarrily the mechs in question. Without BV or equivalent, this will always be the case. I mean, the catapracht has a BV almost 20% higher than the Dragon.

If it suddenly became 2xDragons + 1 Commando vs 2xCataprachts, things would make a ton more sense.

[Wingbreaker]

Guys.

BV is crap.

It's going into its third iteration. It is amazingly easy to exploit. Give it up.

[Serapth]

Lykaon, on 18 March 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

The problems as I see them are with cusp mechs (mechs that are the lowest tonnage for their weight class)

40 ton mechs are only marginally better than a 35 ton mech yet not potent enough to hang with the other mechs in the medium weight class.Same situation occurs with 60 ton and 80 ton chassis.

These cusp mechs usually end up with a role or play style belonging to the previous mech weight teir.

Cicadas play like 40 ton lights,Dragons fill a role very similar to medium chassis and an Awesome is simply out classed for firepower by an 85 ton Stalker so the awesome is gennerally bult as a speedy weapon platform all be it with fewer weapons than an assault class mech should carry.

In many cases this mediocrity syndrome is caused by hardpoint allotments.
Imagine if there was a cicada chassis that allowed for 2 missile hardpoints 3 or more energy hardpoints and had ECM.This cicada would replace the Raven 3L because it does all the Raven's work with more armor.

I Already replaced my Hunchback 4G with a Flame hero mech.The Flame does everything the Hunchback does but can be faster and more heavily armored and has the added quirk of a high mounted left torso ballistic hardpoint.

Overall I would say the Dragon chassis have some merit when used as a big medium rather than compared to their heavy mech brothers.

Agreed, again, Battle value is the answer.

[Vassago Rain]

Wingbreaker, on 18 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Guys.

BV is crap.

It's going into its third iteration. It is amazingly easy to exploit. Give it up.

B-b-b-b-b-but overcomplicated math formulas!

[M4rtyr]

Serapth, on 18 March 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Agreed, again, Battle value is the answer.

Agreed BV is a much better match making variable then just tonnage.

[Serapth]

Vassago Rain, on 18 March 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

B-b-b-b-b-but overcomplicated math formulas!

Yes, how dare we demand complex maths in a video game... composed of, you know, millions of lines of code. That's just insane!

The worst part is, unlike table top, PGI has reams of realtime data they can use to adjust BV on the fly. Start with the table top values, then as the same build dominates, raise its battle value accordingly.

This would be a self solving system, where mechs like the Splat and 3l, if truly dominating the battlefield, would quickly become quite costly to the forces that take them.

There are easy solutions, that can be implemented by someone with a high school level knowledge of statistics... yet instead we get a matchmaker where adding Elo managed to break tonnage matching... *sigh*

[Grey Rabbit]

I've seen a lot of brawling being mentioned and I agree, it's not a brawler. That being said, if you're playing a dragon as a brawler, you're doing it wrong. It's a strike mech, or maybe a quick moving sniper, depending on your loadout.

Your team needs someone to run back to slow/stop a base cap? Call your dragon pilot. You need quick backup at your location fast? Dragon. Chaos in the enemy's backfield while you cross the ridge? Dragon.

It's firepower where you need it fast.

-Grey

[Serapth]

M4rtyr, on 18 March 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Agreed BV is a much better match making variable then just tonnage.

Tonneage isn't rally all that bad, but it should be total tonnage, not tonnage class. Then a Cicada only needs to be better than a mech 5 tons lighter than it, not better than one 20 tons heavier.

[Merky Merc]

I don't even understand how BV would work in a game that is going to be 8v8 matches, and builds teams within 15 seconds of pressing launch from a pool of available random players.

Team A has 2 DDCs so Team B gets 15 medium mechs. BV says that 2v15 is fair so... ready.. Fight!

[danust]

I always thought the flaw was the funky hardpoints. Mastered the 1C 1N and the 5N to Elite. The 5N I just converted xp and sold it. The 3 ballistics in the arm just didn't appeal with the wt restrictions. I didn't even convert to DHS if I remember right. Not sure why I even upgraded it at the time, already had 2x on the other two.

They are fun to pilot. I still crack one open in the mechbay from time to time and tinker but I never seem to drop with them much lately. 2 available missile slots in the CT on top of the rest is a buzzkill. Symmetry is not a dragon thing for sure.

I like how it pilots, behaves and looks but feels like bringing half a gun to the fight. And XL engines are all but mandatory.

[Serapth]

Merky Merc, on 18 March 2013 - 02:26 PM, said:

I don't even understand how BV would work in a game that is going to be 8v8 matches, and builds teams within 15 seconds of pressing launch from a pool of available random players.

Team A has 2 DDCs so Team B gets 15 medium mechs. BV says that 2v15 is fair so... ready.. Fight!

It would be more like 2.5 mediums per D-DC and frankly, that sounds about fair. This is especially true if they used real armor values instead of the 2x versions as well as implementing DHS properly.

2 Atlas vs 5 HBK should actually be a pretty reasonable fight in the situation.

[M4rtyr]

Just a thought...

I'm loving how ever person you see talking about how they're mech does really well and as proof they say something like 'last night I averaged 600+ damage'. Maybe you maxed 600, but I only pug and rarely do I see people ever hit 600 in one match. The averages of the top 2 damages I see is more like 400-500 at best. I'm often top damage with 2 kills at 400+ in my 4sp but my -average- is more like 300.

Wish people would be more unbiased. Its one thing to exagerate or flat out lie if you are trying to keep something OP'ed there is movitve there. But is a simple discussion of the effectiveness of a chasis, why...?

[Corvus Antaka]

xDeityx, on 18 March 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

How do you respond to the fact that boats are not dominating the top builds? That seems to invalidate your claim rather soundly. The AS7-D-DC is the most powerful brawler in the game and yet it carries 3 different types of brawler weaponry.

Take away the ECM and it isnt.

[operator0]

I'll agree that the Cbill Dragons are crap.

I'll disagree with most though, including my teammate, Roughneck45, with regards to the Flame. The best Dragon and actually, the only 8 man competitive Dragon is the Flame. You can boat and you can boat with speed. I've tried several builds and the 4LL with XL350 is by far the best Flame build.

What you get is a mech that can support from medium distance, snipe when the opportunity is there, have better maneuverability and speed than any other heavy and most mediums and carry enough armor to protect that XL. Now, to be sure, having an XL means the mech is a poor brawler and I try hard not to get stuck brawling anything bigger than a Cicada, Cent-D or Treb-3C. Basically, anything faster than the Flame in game is something it can brawl with success...including 3Ls. But the speed advantage gives me the option to disengage from brawler mechs.

As for sniping, it's important to know that 4LL does the same or more damage out to 750M than a single Gauss. The build is versatile and can be run with success in 8 mans and dominate PUG matches. Don't believe me? I've posted numerous vids showcasing the mech's ability, find one and watch it.

To those that say 22kph difference in speed is "negligible", a 104KPH Dragon can run BACKWARDS at 70KPH. How fast does your Cat run backwards? Not fast enough to even escape 90% of the Atlas builds. That speed difference does matter.

Edited by operator0, 18 March 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Orzorn, on 18 March 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Yes, I do excellent in pugs as well (my average the other day was about 600 damage per game), but I'm speaking of 8 man play. Many mechs can be good in 8 mans, even the Spider can pull 600+ damage with a lot of work, but when you attempt that in 8 mans, someone can put out way more than your damage with comparable speeds WITH jump jets, it just isn't worth the extra effort, as well as the worse hit boxes.

I'm glad you can have fun with your Dragon in pub games. I do to, its my favorite mech hands down, but it just isn't in the cards for it to be of much use in 8 mans right now, other than perhaps taking it in a tonnage restricted situation, which even that can be avoided with careful mech selection.

Only way that a Dragon will ever be a good mech for 8 mans is if they introduce tonnage limits, but that is true of numerous mechs.