673 replies to this topic

[BigJim]

Feels right to me.
I've been running;

* SRM boat (Classic A1 with Artemis).

* Streak Lights (Raven 3L and Commando 2D)

*..and in opposition to those Lights, I've been running a Jenner-F and Cicada 3M and an X5 (with and without Streaks).


Lights;
First and foremost - This missile change has a massive effect on ECM, which has several important knock-on effects for Lights.

Yes, I said ECM. All you whiney, crybaby "bigboys dun' stole my lunchmoney" bi**hes can stop constantly QQing over ECM, as I ran an ECM-less all night and had no problems at all.

Sure, I occasionally got LURMed, but that was when I was out of position, and was taking too many liberties, not because ECM was an essential piece of kit.
My Cicada X5 (tossed aside as a useless novelty until now) was as useful as my 3M all last night, despite one having ECM and the other not having it (I used the same build in both mechs)

As any scout worthy of the name knows, ECM is the big Streak-nabler. It's worth is NOT in stealth (although that's nice) it's strength is in being able to use, or to deny, the use of Streaks.
However, now that streaks can be withstood for a while, a battle between a Light with ECM and one without is no longer a totally one-sided affair.

I've often said (as will any Light pilot with a clue) that a Raven vs any Other light in this game isn't even a fight, it's just a snack.
However, all last night when I was in my scouts (3M, X5 and Jenner-F), I was able to fight, and often as not win against ECM-lights such as commandos and Ravens, because their Streaks while still powerful, were not annihilating me as soon as we engaged.


Conclusion for Lights; Roll back on this change and you go right back to the Raven being the one and only viable Scout mech in the game.
You've finally found a bit of balance (streaks could actually do with a bit less manoeuvrability of the projectile), and going back would ruin the Scout game, just as it has been ruined all this since you went and massively upgraded Streaks at the start of Open beta.



SRM-boats;
As an SRM boat (A1 with 4x SRM-6 and 2x SRM-4 with Arty), I can still happily 1v1 any mech in the game.
I took on a Jigga-Boom in one match, an Atlas in another, and a trio of circling Lights in yet another.
I didn't feel overpowered, as I really, really had to work on my opponent, but I was not useless at all, and was scoring in the top 3x places every match.

However instead of taking 2x Alphas to wipe out my opponent, it took like 4 or 5.
4/5 shots to kill an opponent is not bad by any means, so I like it.

Conclusion for SRM-Boats;
Feels about right.
A good alpha or two will wreck mechs and blow parts off, just like they used to, but it just takes a little more work to finish him off all by yourself, which is imo just where a specialist mech like this should lie.

This extra time & work leavs you (the SRM boat) vulnerable to enemies realising you've closed and responding appropriately.
Perfect.

Edited by BigJim, 23 March 2013 - 01:19 PM.

[Galenit]

This man say it:

SgtKinCaiD, on 22 March 2013 - 06:25 AM, said:

The missile weapon were fine before the patch so put them back like it was and the problem is solved.

Before patch 1,8 damage, most lrm-users have 30-35% accuracy with lrms, thats 0,6 damage left and fells ok (around 9 damage for a lrm15)

After patch lrms were broken and op, must change...

After hotfix, lrms do 0,7 damage, when taking over all and mosts users accuracy into account thats only 3,5 damage for a lrm15, thats not enough for 7 tons+ammo ....

Edited by Galenit, 23 March 2013 - 04:38 AM.

[_Speirs]

Rockets are useless now.
And so AMSs are useles now either.
And there is no need to have ECM when rockets are so useless.
I regret every missile hardpoint ive got now in my mechs.

Edited by Yahoo, 23 March 2013 - 04:36 AM.

[marlyy]

just push lrms a bit

[Chet Beefstrong]

Thanks for the quick response and good luck finding a long term solution asap.

Was ARTEMIS affected by this? I can cope with the massive firepower drop off in my 4SP, but it feels like my SRM6's have been turned into scatterguns.

Edited by Chet Beefstrong, 23 March 2013 - 08:13 AM.

[ElLocoMarko]

Paul Inouye, on 21 March 2013 - 02:46 PM, said:

...
It is at these levels that missile combat falls back to a level that we AND the community felt was right for a long period of time before the badness appeared. I'm going to ask you to help us test these values by FEEL. Not by playing SpreadsheetWarrior.

...

Missiles are STILL a very big threat to the target but just aren't doing these chart topping damage numbers.
...

LRM feel anemic. SRM damage seems quite reasonable but runs a little hot.
Played 10 games of LRM and 12 games of SRM.

LRM is missing the "I have you now" moments here you execute perfect tactics and (pre Jagermech patch) could wreck something. Losing games is a lot more tolerable when you have those small victories. But now you do everything right and get minimal effects. SRM still has those small victories.

I was all ready to move into Trebuchet for its maneuverability and LRM15 but that is over now.... it will be all ballistics.

[KingNobody]

I "feel" as though my JR7-D and X-5 are not as effective after this patch. SRMs feel a little weak, and I've noticed a definite drop in my damage per round. I think more appropriate values for missiles are LRMs - 1 dmg/missile SRMs- 2 dmg/missile, and we can leave streaks at 1.5 because they're being punished for making everyone cry a few months ago (or their greater accuracy if you don't like the silly reason).


EDIT: Think I'm going back to streaks on my JR7-D, if I'm going to do minimal damage with missiles, it might as well be minimal damage with lock-on.

Edited by KingNobody, 23 March 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Vrekgar]

Missiles FEEL way weaker than ever before.

Properly used LRM's lack significant amounts of punch against any target. To Quote a movie, They just arent doing enough damage.

This is a good opportunity to fix some long standing issues and redesign them to be better.

• Adjust Firing Mechanics: It would be very nice to be able to select if we want to fire them over a building or straight at someone.
  
• The flight itself is a bit slow but thats ok IF...
  
• Missiles on terminal attack were a bit faster. Also, Why cant each missile "Roll" to determine where its trying to hit? Wouldnt this solve the issue where everything aims at the CT?
  
• Dumbfire is terrible and deserves some improvement. Why cant they fly faster and group up in a line so long as there is no lock?

SRM's are weaker than before but I think its actually pretty close to good. It forces some decision making in builds but still has SOME punch. No longer ideal to fit the MAXIMUM number of SRM as possible.

Streaks... Well they dont dominate like they used to. And with them weaker light Vs light is more interesting and fair.

[arghmace]

Specterr, on 22 March 2013 - 06:05 AM, said:

Right now LRMs can't be ignored but they are not an instant death sentence anymore. They are great for soften up targets and providing indirect support to other mechs, and as far as I am concerned that is exactly what they should be there for.

The problem is that since the introduction of ECM and the extension of TAG range LRM's have most of all been direct fire weapons. The only effective way to use them is with Artemis and TAG at least in pug games. I've all but stopped shooting LRM's at enemies I cannot see ages ago since 90% of the time the target is lost either due to ECM or my team mates switching targets just to **** me off.

So effectively we now have a direct fire weapon that hits 30% of the time and does very little damage compared to its heat and weight. At least the flight speed should be buffed a lot so that shooting missiles at mechs not seen by you would stand a chance of hitting before the target is lost.

[Sifright]

Missiles need to bounce up in damage to

1.2 for lrms
2.1 for srms.

At the moment all missile weapons are trash, I dropped them on every mech that uses them and stabled my A1.

My ddc that was running
2Xml
1XAC20
3XSRM6

is now

1x LL
1x ML
2x UAC/5


(I also uninstalled the game because it crashes almost every other game now and i keep getting annoying glitches that make playing the game less fun than sitting on my hands for hours until i get pins and needles.)

[VoltarDark]

I just try my Stalker 5M loaded with 4 x lrm15 in 5 matchs, here is my findings:

My numerical firepower when down a lot. My usual actual damage done was cut in half.
But we won our 5 matchs where i was first scorer or second on all of them with an average of 3 kills.

Yes it will be harder to score first with only a medium loaded with only 2x lrm15... but i find it normal and balanced.

So yes LRM were toned down, but i feel that they are still a threat and are in balance with all others weapons.

The game is more fun now,more open to different kinds of build.

Great jobs PGI.

[arghmace]

Actually I just realized the main problem with LRM's: they are not long range but medium range missiles.

LRM's are (or at least used to be) very effective when self-tagging and seeing the enemy for Artemis at medium ranges. But when you shoot them at say 800 meters, the enemy is bound to evade them if he knows what he is doing. He has 8 seconds to find a cover of some sorts. And of course when the range goes above 1km, the only option is PPC, Gauss and small AC's. So much for long range missile.

Eyeballing the enemy personally at medium ranges => effective. Non-direct fire to long ranges => waste of time. How is this a support weapon?

Edited by arghmace, 23 March 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[DocBach]

I got a crazy idea. Why don't they bring the missiles to their tabletop damage values like all the other guns in the game?

[stjobe]

arghmace, on 23 March 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Eyeballing the enemy personally at medium ranges => effective. Non-direct fire to long ranges => waste of time. How is this a support weapon?

Make friends with a light 'mech equipped with TAG. You know, a spotter?

Once upon a time, when TAG was 250m, I was in a match with one of my Commandos which happened to have TAG. At the start of the game I said "got TAG, will try to find you targets" and got the answer "LRM boat here, we're going to be friends".

So I proceeded to TAG targets for my new friend, and he got 5 kills that match. I got 1 kill and 5 assists, and we won the match.

Don't expect to be able to do everything on your own in a team-based game and you'll do fine.

[arghmace]

stjobe, on 23 March 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Make friends with a light 'mech equipped with TAG. You know, a spotter?

Even then you cannot use Artemis so your missiles are less effective.

But yes, of course I do this when I play with my friends. In pug battles however shooting missiles at enemies you cannot see yourself is most of the time waste of ammo. It all boils down to the game design of sharing info on only targeted enemies. If all visible mechs would be shown on map and targetable, all would be different.

Edited by arghmace, 23 March 2013 - 09:58 AM.

[stjobe]

arghmace, on 23 March 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

Even then you cannot use Artemis so your missiles are less effective.

But yes, of course I do this when I play with my friends. In pug battles however shooting missiles at enemies you cannot see yourself is most of the time waste of ammo. It all boils down to the game design of sharing info on only targeted enemies. If all visible mechs would be shown on map and targetable, all would be different.

The game I described was a PUG game.

Also, MWO is currently sharing way more enemy info than it should. Originally, target damage and crit status were supposed to be scout role skills, and scout role would also have a skill to target more than one target at a time, and one to narrow the spread on indirect fire. Receiving target info was also supposed to be a pilot skill.

What you're asking for is still to be able to do everything yourself.

[Lorcan Lladd]

stjobe, on 23 March 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

Make friends with a light 'mech equipped with TAG. You know, a spotter?

Once upon a time, when TAG was 250m, I was in a match with one of my Commandos which happened to have TAG. At the start of the game I said "got TAG, will try to find you targets" and got the answer "LRM boat here, we're going to be friends".

So I proceeded to TAG targets for my new friend, and he got 5 kills that match. I got 1 kill and 5 assists, and we won the match.

Don't expect to be able to do everything on your own in a team-based game and you'll do fine.

In MWO, a BattleMech which isn't able to go into battle 1vs1 and win is no such thing.

I don't care how LRMs are supposed to be used as 'support' weapons or how Light 'Mechs are meant to be used as scouts and to relay targeting information with TAG instead of fighting in tabletop BattleTech - I haven't lost a 'Mech of my own to LRMs in a very long time, not accounting for severe numerical disadvantage.
If a team gets 6 independent and 2 'support' 'Mechs and the opposition is given 8 independent 'Mechs by the matchmaker, the second team can be expected to win each and every time, assuming equally skilled players across the board.

As of now, it's quite feasible for a LRM boat to deal more damage with its secondary weapons rather than LRMs; why then, would they equip LRMs at all? Even the best LRM boats out there are handicapping themselves if they insist on using them.
Direct fire weapons like ERPPC and Gauss are more effective at long range, possess no minimal ranges and are actually dangerous, unlike LRMs.

I hope the developers increase the individual missile damage to 1.4 or even higher as soon as the issues with splash damage are resolved.
This is simply not reasonable.

I'm not sure about SRMs, though, as I haven't observed any A1s in my last couple of matches.

Perhaps that in itself should speak at length about the current state of SRMs.

Edited by Lorcan Lladd, 23 March 2013 - 10:23 AM.

[ElLocoMarko]

And now that I've reported my "FEEL" above, I just can't stop myself from spreadsheeting.
Noting my damage stats before and after playing (per weapon page of forum profile stats).

Post Hotfix LRM damage was 2632 over 2660 hits = 0.98 damage per hit. (pre-jaggermech was 1.7)
Post Hotfix SRM damage was 2.00 damage per hit. (pre-Jaggermech was 2.3)
Post Hotfix SSRM2 damage was 2.05 damage per hit. (pre-jaggermech was 3.01)

The devs know what their own damage stat contains and I suspect that the pre-jaggermech SRM damage was not including the compounding splash... because according to feel... SRM is about 33% less than it was before.
Regardless of what it measures, LRM saw a 41% drop in that metric... seems inline with the field performance..

The damage levels of the SRM are OK but.... When damage goes from 15 down to 10, the heat should be adjusted as well. SRM always ran a bit hot and now it is out of line with its damage.

[PaintedWolf]

The SRMs were nerfed based on a post that they were doing up to 7 times their intended damage due to splash: http://mwomercs.com/...ted-2013-03-15/

Quote

Streak SRM damage is amplified by 420 460 to 620% 660%against the Commando. Each missile does roughly the same damage as a Gauss slug, and this is from a fire-and-forget weapon weighing (with ammo) 2.5 tons. I am not making these numbers up. Try it yourself.

A single SRM was doing up to 15 damage. So there are apparently cases where 1 SRM-6 did 105 damage. And a Streak-Cat was doing as much damage as 6 Gauss Rifles.

The poster had a single 40 second video and a lot of math we had to take his/her word on proving their point. Actual screen shots, damage scores and other types of video evidence are mysteriously absent.

Based on this apparent bug where a single SRM-6 was doing 105 pts of damage, SRMs were nerfed across the board 40%.

This means, bug still in place, they are still OP (Streaks will still do as much damage as half a Gauss and SRM-6s will do roughly 65 points of damage) but hey, somehow the problem was fixed.

It couldn't be that this bug was just made up, and now missiles are UP.

Each missile was apparently doing as much damage as a Gauss Slug---they have teh Proof!--and so now we got a hot fix.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

So the poster who really drove in this "hot fix" was claiming a Streakboat was doing the equivalent damage of 6 Gauss Rifles. That is right- 6 Gauss Rifles= Streakcat.

But there is no video evidence of this much damage being done at all. And a 40% reduction in Streak Damage fixed this because now each Streakcat only does the damage of 3 Gauss Rifles.

And that is why it is balanced and nobody is using Streakboats, because 3 Gauss Rifles of damage is now balanced. In fact 3 Gauss Rifles of damage isn't even worth it.

(Apparently according to the "Proof" which was the basis for this Hot Fix, a Splatcat was doing the damage equivalent of 18 Gauss Rifles. )

Now they are balanced because with a 40% reduction they only do the damage of 9 Gauss Rifles now.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 11:09 AM.