673 replies to this topic

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

The evidence is in every game we played pre-nerf. SRMpult walks up to you, 1 volley, you lost half your Mech. Second volley, you drop dead. A1s were taking on Atlases or Stalkers, and 1 hit KOed most Light/Medium targets. Not hard to realize when something is broken that badly. SRMs were far too weight efficient compared to other weapons. An LBX weighs far more, yet is a gun no one ever uses because it was junk compared to a couple of SRM 6s.

Edited by Bluten, 23 March 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Okay, but even according to the reasoning that pre-nerf SRM2= Gauss Rifle....they would still be over-powered. The fact is that a Streakcat still has the power of 3 Gauss Rifles at their disposal...and the Splatcat 9 Gauss Rifles.

They need to nerf the weapons way, WAY more if they want missiles to be balanced.

http://mwomercs.com/...ix/page__st__60

Quote

There was an entire ******** thread about this with community done testing and a dev response where they agreed with our findings, why do you think this hotfix happened at all? I swear, thick as a brick doesn't begin to describe some of you people who post around here.

Look at that thread. The nerf was based on these extraordinary findings that Streak SRM 2s were doing the same amount of damage as Gauss Rifles. They got teh proof!

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[PaintedWolf]

Bluten, on 23 March 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

The evidence is in every game we played pre-nerf. SRMpult walks up to you, 1 volley, you lost half your Mech. Second volley, you drop dead. A1s were taking on Atlases or Stalkers, and 1 hit KOed most Light/Medium targets. Not hard to realize when something is broken that badly. SRMs were far too weight efficient compared to other weapons. An LBX weighs far more, yet is a gun no one ever uses because it was junk compared to a couple of SRM 6s.

Well there isn't much that can stand up to 18 Gauss Rifles worth of damage.

And apparently this has to be true because they got teh test results and teh stats:

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Your attempt to discredit this is not gonna work when you have people looking at their statistics and seeing their SRM damage be much higher than it should be. Doubly so when the devs themselves went in and tested this and said "oh ****, you guys are right."

teh stats prove pre-nerf SRMs were doing as much damage as Gauss Rifles.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[arghmace]

PaintedWolf, on 23 March 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

Okay, but even according to the reasoning that pre-nerf SRM2= Gauss Rifle....they would still be over-powered.

No they wouldn't. You're just looking at the damage nerf, not the very big splash nerf. And it was excactly due to splash that missiles were doing huge damage especially against small Commandos.

[PaintedWolf]

arghmace, on 23 March 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

No they wouldn't. You're just looking at the damage nerf, not the very big splash nerf. And it was excactly due to splash that missiles were doing huge damage especially against small Commandos.

But they didn't change splash, they just changed damage. And now Streakcats, LRM Boats and Splatcats are super-weak. According to the quoted "studies" and "proofs" the Streakcat should have the equivalent of 3 Gauss Rifles in power at their disposal. Does anyone "feel" like their Streakcat has the power of 3 Gauss Rifles at their disposal?

Did anyone using SRMs ever feel like their SRMs did as much damage as a Gauss Rifle?

According to a lot of the people calling for nerf the 40% damage reduction fixed the problem, if the problem was splash causing up to 7 times intended damage---how would a 40% damage reduction fix that? What are we to make now that they are saying a 40% damage reduction DID fix the problem?

It looked to me that their goal was simply to nerf SRMs and they were willing to say anything, no matter how far fetched or absurd to do so.

[PaintedWolf]

The question is simple, if "cause of splash" SRMs were doing as much damage as Gauss Rifles (and this is SRM2s, meaning 6s were doing the damage of THREE Gauss Rifles) then how did the 40% damage nerf fix this? Why are the people who were calling for "nerf" saying it DID fix it? SRM 6s would still have the damage output of 1.5 Gauss Rifles-because splash was not changed.

I mean if my Splatcat still does the damage of 9 Gauss Rifles after nerf it is still way, WAY over-powered. Are you saying they need to be nerfed more?

[wanderer]

Thontor, on 22 March 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

i disagree... in TT they really don't pack a strong punch.. at best they are crit seekers... 2 damage each.. to random different locations. not necessarily all missiles hit... definitely not a strong punch

I'd say the proper word is "they don't pack a -focused- punch", not that they don't pack a strong one. A missile launcher doesn't always hit with all tubes, so the general "damage rating" for one is whatever a "7" is on the cluster hit charts for the number of tubes.

An SRM 6 hits like a large laser with scatter in TT. (Amusingly enough, in MWO a large laser has the same scatter issues thanks to beams generally hitting a moving target.)

In TT, scatter isn't bad as far as how much punch a weapon has- in part, because critseeking has to be factored into weapons effectiveness. While the SRM 6 hits like an LL, they function differently, yet still effectively...and best together, but each has a strategy that works. The LL user is hoping to outright destroy a section, while the SRM user is generally doing chip damage, but with much higher odds of hitting a "weak spot" via a hit-location of 2 (critical) or 12 (head). Of course, high levels of crit threatening are more effective on softer targets, but in all the time I've played BT, I can't count how many times I've had a crit seeker cripple or kill a target while doing less "raw" damage than I would have with a similar amount of straight-up large-numbers hits instead.

MWO, with more location-precise damage has to figure this into the use of missiles and other weapons. If "chip" hits aren't going to be that helpful, then tweaking raw damage upwards is needed. It feels underdamaging right now, and that's in part due to the problem that missile damage -even when said missiles hit the target- seems to decline when you hit even a slowly moving target vs. a non-moving one. It seems that some of the "punch" splash damage is supposed to add gets missed in application against mobile targets, and as a user, I don't have to tools to show that properly.

[PaintedWolf]

Another poster made a heck of a good point:

Quote

Below I've pasted in my Splatcat stats. I've played in 45 matches, have 47 kills, and have inflicted a total of 15,178 dmg. Divide 15,178 by 47 and you get 322 dmg per mech destroyed. At 90 pts per volley, that's 3.5 volleys per mech.

If I were doing 7 times the stated damage (as some have falsely claimed), then I'd be killing every mech with a single volley, and would instead have a damage inflicted total (for 47 kills) of over 105,000 which you can see... I DON'T.



The stats you "deduced" on the training grounds, weren't accurate. If SRMs were doing the damage you claimed, then my 90 pt alpha would have been doing upwards of 600 damage and single-shot killing every mech I ever fired at.

Poster was HarmAssassin, this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...ix/page__st__60

[MN03]

PaintedWolf, on 23 March 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

But they didn't change splash, they just changed damage. And now Streakcats, LRM Boats and Splatcats are super-weak. According to the quoted "studies" and "proofs" the Streakcat should have the equivalent of 3 Gauss Rifles in power at their disposal. Does anyone "feel" like their Streakcat has the power of 3 Gauss Rifles at their disposal?

Did anyone using SRMs ever feel like their SRMs did as much damage as a Gauss Rifle?

According to a lot of the people calling for nerf the 40% damage reduction fixed the problem, if the problem was splash causing up to 7 times intended damage---how would a 40% damage reduction fix that? What are we to make now that they are saying a 40% damage reduction DID fix the problem?

It looked to me that their goal was simply to nerf SRMs and they were willing to say anything, no matter how far fetched or absurd to do so.

But they did change the splash radius. Quote:

What does the hotfix do?
A number of things. First off, it reduces the splash damage radius from 4.0m (for both LRM/SRM) to 1.8m (LRM) and 1.3m (SRM/SSRM). This obviously reduces the amount of splash damage caused to secondary components.

[PaintedWolf]

MN03, on 23 March 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

But they did change the splash radius. Quote:

What does the hotfix do?
A number of things. First off, it reduces the splash damage radius from 4.0m (for both LRM/SRM) to 1.8m (LRM) and 1.3m (SRM/SSRM). This obviously reduces the amount of splash damage caused to secondary components.

A poster showed above stats showing that the Splatcat was doing 90 pts of damage a strike. Yes that kills an enemy in 2-3 salvos because it is supposed to do that. In TT 6 SRM-6s will likewise kill an enemy in 2-3 salvos. The weapon was doing the damage it was supposed to be doing.

Quote

Below I've pasted in my Splatcat stats. I've played in 45 matches, have 47 kills, and have inflicted a total of 15,178 dmg. Divide 15,178 by 47 and you get 322 dmg per mech destroyed. At 90 pts per volley, that's 3.5 volleys per mech.

If I were doing 7 times the stated damage (as some have falsely claimed), then I'd be killing every mech with a single volley, and would instead have a damage inflicted total (for 47 kills) of over 105,000 which you can see... I DON'T.



The stats you "deduced" on the training grounds, weren't accurate. If SRMs were doing the damage you claimed, then my 90 pt alpha would have been doing upwards of 600 damage and single-shot killing every mech I ever fired at.

If it was doing 7 times intended damage as was claimed these numbers would be way higher. Obviously something occurred in the "studies" presented from the testing grounds, and the numbers were simply accepted without question or further testing in the actual game.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[Dimitry Matveyev]

Everywhere I look - I see treads about how rockets are OP! And the examples are LRM 60+ builds and splatcats. Ok, rockets are nerfed. Boats are dealing less damage (but enough, to destroy other mechs). But if you are not boating - you have to forget about rockets after this hotfix. Pair of LRM5 - useless. One LRM 10 - the same here, couple of SRM4 - again, nearly useless. SRM2 - just petards )). LRM without artemis - again, useless.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

So by your logic, every gun is useless when not stacked with itself? My 4SP with 2LL, 2ML, 2STR, should just drop everything because they're all useless when not stacked in a boat? You do know that you can stack guns with other guns, right? My 1X has an ER PPC+Gauss. Sure, 1 might not be much, but despite being different weapons, there's still 2 of them. Guns are not useless or OP based on quantity. They're useless or OP on their own merit. ECM is another example. Some people spew crap saying it's only OP when stacked up. No, it's OP entirely, in any quantity. Similarly, the BAP is trash, entirely, in any quantity.

[Squigles]

Simply going into my weapon stats page and dividing damage by hits gives a range of damage values per missile.

SRM 4: 2.67 per missile
SRM 6: 2.56 per missile
SSRM2: 3.65 per missile

These weapons have seen a good chunk of use post patch, so that's drug my averages down a good bit. When asked people in my (guild/company/corp/whatever) have reported values ranging from roughly 2.5 to 4.

These are averages, obviously there are low and high outliers that contributed to that average. I'm sure there were certain shot placements on certain mechs that WERE resulting in ludicrously high damage. Extremely compact mechs in particular were getting obliterated (hence the much higher average on streaks as those were often targeting lights).

Regardless, even after having the averages lowered by post patch nerf use it's obvious the weapons were doing more damage then intended. As it stands NOW they're basically putting up table top damage numbers, like almost every other weapon in MWO.

[Dimitry Matveyev]

Bluten, on 23 March 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

So by your logic, every gun is useless when not stacked with itself? My 4SP with 2LL, 2ML, 2STR, should just drop everything because they're all useless when not stacked in a boat? You do know that you can stack guns with other guns, right? My 1X has an ER PPC+Gauss. Sure, 1 might not be much, but despite being different weapons, there's still 2 of them. Guns are not useless or OP based on quantity. They're useless or OP on their own merit. ECM is another example. Some people spew crap saying it's only OP when stacked up. No, it's OP entirely, in any quantity. Similarly, the BAP is trash, entirely, in any quantity.

No, by my logic after the hotfix small launchers looks to nerfed. I compleatly agree with you - guns should stack with other guns and builds should be versatile. And before hotfix there was a point in adding a small launcher to your build for versatility. But with the damage lowered thereis no point in the wasting slots and tonns. For example - SRM4 deals 6 damage (yeah, I know, about spread damage). MPL deals the same damage to 1 point, has higher ROF and doesnt need ammo (which can be destroyed, btw). What would you choose to make your build more effective?

P.S. BAP should be buffed!

Edited by Dimitry Matveyev, 23 March 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[Squigles]

Dimitry Matveyev, on 23 March 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

No, by my logic after the hotfix small launchers looks to nerfed. I compleatly agree with you - guns should stack with other guns and builds should be versatile. And before hotfix there was a point in adding a small launcher to your build for versatility. But with the damage lowered thereis no point in the wasting slots and tonns. For example - SRM4 deals 6 damage (yeah, I know, about spread damage). MPL deals the same damage to 1 point, has higher ROF and doesnt need ammo (which can be destroyed, btw). What would you choose to make your build more effective?

P.S. BAP should be buffed!

Uhhhh...what?

Comparison of SRM 4 to Medium Pulse Laser.

Rate of Fire: No ROF advantage
Medium pulse laser = 3 second cooldown and .75 second beam duration. ROF = 3.75 seconds
SRM 4 = 3.75 second cooldown. ROF = 3.75

Damage: Advantage SRM 4
MPL = 6 damage
SRM 4 = 6 + Splash damage (average 2 points for an SRM 4)

Heat: Advantage SRM 4
MPL = 5 heat
SRM 4 = 3 heat

Same weight, same crits.

The advantage of the MPL is the ability to deal all it's damage to 1 point IF you can hold the target location, and it doesn't use ammo (although that doesn't do much for weight since you need more heatsinks). That being said the SRM 4 has the advantage in heat generation AND total damage output.

In short, not sure why you choose to compare an SRM 4 with a medium pulse laser and declare the SRM 4 is pointless.

[Dimitry Matveyev]

Squigles, on 23 March 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Uhhhh...what?

Comparison of SRM 4 to Medium Pulse Laser.

Rate of Fire: No ROF advantage

Ok, I can see my mistake about ROF. Partialy I would agree about damage. But you have to be realy close to land all missiles in one torso part. Bigger distance - lower chance to hit 1 mech part. And that doesn't depends on your skill. But with MPL you have to hold the target location only 0.75 sec - not to much. With SRM4 risks are higher (close range, ammo), but reward is not good enough.

[ElLocoMarko]

Wow! Painted Wolf is really raging on SRMs and seems to have ignored a few things. He goes on and on about gauss rifle damage.... let's look into that with a bit less emotion.

So in the old world SRM and streaks were doing 2.5 to the part they hit plus anything within 4 meters including back armor which is how it got ended up multiplying damage on tiny mechs (because lots of locations fell within that 4m radius). But damage is now 1.5 and the radius is 1.3 meters and there is an immediate 0.4 multiplier on splash which is also scaled based on distance from point of impact. So,do we still think the 15 damage splash bug is running amuk? No.

And I'll vouch for that. In the pre-patch days light mechs would turn into roman candles if you were even half on target with a batch of SRM. In my post hot-fix matches plenty of lights have survived a full face splat (though they might smoke a bit). The scaling is working. It's still a 55 point alpha so they will probably lose a body part but no healthy mech is getting one-shotted.

So please take Painted Wolf's comments with a grain of salt knowing there is a lot of emotion there and trust me just a little because I run the splat and have a very good feel for it. Post hotfix did remove the crazy damage multiplying that was going on and if you run something medium or up you will have more than ample time to kill your attacker even if it gets one surprise salvo in.

[PaintedWolf]

ElLocoMarko, on 23 March 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

Wow! Painted Wolf is really raging on SRMs and seems to have ignored a few things. He goes on and on about gauss rifle damage.... let's look into that with a bit less emotion.

So in the old world SRM and streaks were doing 2.5 to the part they hit plus anything within 4 meters including back armor which is how it got ended up multiplying damage on tiny mechs (because lots of locations fell within that 4m radius). But damage is now 1.5 and the radius is 1.3 meters and there is an immediate 0.4 multiplier on splash which is also scaled based on distance from point of impact. So,do we still think the 15 damage splash bug is running amuk? No.

And I'll vouch for that. In the pre-patch days light mechs would turn into roman candles if you were even half on target with a batch of SRM. In my post hot-fix matches plenty of lights have survived a full face splat (though they might smoke a bit). The scaling is working. It's still a 55 point alpha so they will probably lose a body part but no healthy mech is getting one-shotted.

So please take Painted Wolf's comments with a grain of salt knowing there is a lot of emotion there and trust me just a little because I run the splat and have a very good feel for it. Post hotfix did remove the crazy damage multiplying that was going on and if you run something medium or up you will have more than ample time to kill your attacker even if it gets one surprise salvo in.

Quote

Streak SRM damage is amplified by 420 460 to 620% 660%against the Commando. Each missile does roughly the same damage as a Gauss slug, and this is from a fire-and-forget weapon weighing (with ammo) 2.5 tons. I am not making these numbers up. Try it yourself.

Quote

Below I've pasted in my Splatcat stats. I've played in 45 matches, have 47 kills, and have inflicted a total of 15,178 dmg. Divide 15,178 by 47 and you get 322 dmg per mech destroyed. At 90 pts per volley, that's 3.5 volleys per mech.

If I were doing 7 times the stated damage (as some have falsely claimed), then I'd be killing every mech with a single volley, and would instead have a damage inflicted total (for 47 kills) of over 105,000 which you can see... I DON'T.



The stats you "deduced" on the training grounds, weren't accurate. If SRMs were doing the damage you claimed, then my 90 pt alpha would have been doing upwards of 600 damage and single-shot killing every mech I ever fired at.

If the numbers were so off, then the numbers over 45 matches would be skewed, not averaged to a expected damage per match. This nerf was just made to appease a bunch of losers.

Just like if at the end of a game where the unexpected team wins and the hosts go "OMG the last round scores counted for NEGATIVE POINTS so the team we expected to win should win!"

[PaintedWolf]

Quote

I've played in 45 matches, have 47 kills, and have inflicted a total of 15,178 dmg. Divide 15,178 by 47 and you get 322 dmg per mech destroyed. At 90 pts per volley, that's 3.5 volleys per mech.

That seems about right doesn't it?

3.5 volleys per Mech is how much is takes a Mech with 6 SRM 6s to kill an Assault on TT. So just because a small group cannot handle being out-competed they get to change the rules whenever they want.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 03:01 PM.

[Dimitry Matveyev]

Thontor, on 23 March 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Just did some testing.. against a stock AS7-D ... single Medium Pulse Laser vs SRM4 (no artemis) at 180m... aiming dead center of the front center torso.
Good research here
Even at the edge of the Medium Pulse Laser's optimum range, the SRMs barely take more shots than the Medium Pulse Laser... they would kill the Atlas even quicker if you were closer than the 180m this was tested at.

Yes, on the testing ground SRM4 and MPL are very similar, agreed, but in the battle, where AS7-D is not just standing, but walking and firing back it would be more risky to get closer, a bigger chance to miss (I know, this works for MPL too), a chance to run out of ammo and a chance to get ammo destroyed.