673 replies to this topic

[PaintedWolf]

ElLocoMarko, on 23 March 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

And I'll vouch for that. In the pre-patch days light mechs would turn into roman candles if you were even half on target with a batch of SRM. In my post hot-fix matches plenty of lights have survived a full face splat (though they might smoke a bit). The scaling is working. It's still a 55 point alpha so they will probably lose a body part but no healthy mech is getting one-shotted.

So please take Painted Wolf's comments with a grain of salt knowing there is a lot of emotion there and trust me just a little because I run the splat and have a very good feel for it. Post hotfix did remove the crazy damage multiplying that was going on and if you run something medium or up you will have more than ample time to kill your attacker even if it gets one surprise salvo in.

Let's consider what was removed from TT to pre-emptively nerf SRMs- Pilot K/O, TACs, knock down, random location hits.

SRMs are even stronger in TT design then in MWO, but because some people could not "emotionally handle" their design strategies being wrong the entire game has to be engineered just for them. It's like the end of a basketball game and the refs randomly announcing 3 pointers only count as 1 point. They already had a lot going for them unfairly, and they still lost, and now they have to get even more? Why even pretend it was a competition at all at this point, just say the winner was already decided 100% before hand!

And if anyone wants to dispute this I am more then willing to play them in a MegaMek game, which goes by TT rules, where I can show quite easily that an SRM-6 boat with 6SRM6s can destroy an Assault Mech in 3-4 volleys. The game was already rigged for the other side, and they lost, so it had to be extra-rigged after the game was over.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 03:23 PM.

[ElLocoMarko]

I loved assassinating mechs in the pre-Jaggermech patch splatcat. 1 alpha for lights, 2 for mediums, 4 for assault. But it didn't feel terribly fair to my opponents - especially the mediums. The math says it should happen.... put perhaps out of fairness it shouldn't. I'd love them to get a boost in damage because I enjoy the quick violent kills. If it was my call I'd go half-way between the nerf and the Jan-Feb levels with a proportionate drop in heat. But PGI doesn't really care about us suggesting new values and always just go with what their testing suggests... and then it hits the wild!

[PaintedWolf]

ElLocoMarko, on 23 March 2013 - 03:47 PM, said:

I loved assassinating mechs in the pre-Jaggermech patch splatcat. 1 alpha for lights, 2 for mediums, 4 for assault. But it didn't feel terribly fair to my opponents - especially the mediums. The math says it should happen.... put perhaps out of fairness it shouldn't. I'd love them to get a boost in damage because I enjoy the quick violent kills. If it was my call I'd go half-way between the nerf and the Jan-Feb levels with a proportionate drop in heat. But PGI doesn't really care about us suggesting new values and always just go with what their testing suggests... and then it hits the wild!

So because the build works, even if it follows the rules, it needs to be nerfed.

[Ialdabaoth]

Suggestion for SRMs:

Set the SRM damage to 2.0, set the splash radius back to 4.0, but have SRMs deal splash damage *ONLY* to breached sections.

SRMs in the tabletop have always been a "critseeker" weapon; this would give them the same role in MWO.

[PaintedWolf]

Ialdabaoth, on 23 March 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Suggestion for SRMs:

Set the SRM damage to 2.0, set the splash radius back to 4.0, but have SRMs deal splash damage *ONLY* to breached sections.

SRMs in the tabletop have always been a "critseeker" weapon; this would give them the same role in MWO.

SRMs would then be doing same damage as TT with no chance of TAC or pilot K/O. Why do SRMs have to be nerfed that bad for generalists to be competitive?

[Spades Kincaid]

There's a pretty serious problem right now that needs fixing before even worrying about the damage numbers on LRM's.

That is, they aren't hitting anything moving worth a damn. Unless it's an assault mech, any movement that isn't -towards- the missles makes them drop very low in their flight before reaching the mech. Resulting in either a few leg hits (and alot of missed missles) or hitting the ground. And it's not just lights or speedy mediums. But even heavies cause this to happen very often.

I had it happening on practically every salvo last night in a match on Caustic. Was a big brawl going on between the teams outside of Epsilon. So I was able to sit just outside the scrum and launch away with perfect locks and no cover intervening. The majority of my salvo's were targeting 2 Cat's and a Jager on their team. Heavies. And almost every single one of them dipped down to leg level before it reached the mech, doing perhaps a little leg damage or mostly splattering the ground near their feet.

I ran through 6 tons of ammo....and did under 200 total dmg for the match. Ranges varied from 300-800m.

At -least- 4 tons of it was all at the heavies. The rest at a Hunchback and a Jenner (just because I had no other target when he arrived first). With 4+ tons of ideal salvos at heavy mechs I should have done considerably more damage.


Pretty useless if LRM's are not properly striking almost any moving target unless its moving in about a 45 degree arc toward you. Or at Assault speeds. Or standing still....

As someone else posted, LRM's seem to have developed a foot fetish. It was both sadly amusing and discouraging to watch. There's no telling how well they actually might be doing damage until their flightpath/flightspeed is fixed so that they can track to the torso of all but the speediest mechs no matter which direction they are moving.

[PaintedWolf]

LRMs do 0.7 damage per missile....and the damage is spread, and they have minimum range, AND they have less range then Gauss Rifles or PPCs. AND they can be blocked by ECM and AMS. Right now LRMs are useless for a number of reasons.

[Spades Kincaid]

That may well be true, I agree generally. (They do more than .7 per missle with splash. Exactly what will vary. A problem in itself.)

If they aren't hitting a locked enemy in open ground properly, it makes the rest of that moot until they are. Which was the point.

[ICEFANG13]

I don't even know why we want splash? What a balance nightmare.

I've made the comparison between Medium Pulse and SRM-4 in my head too. Now they do the same damage, and DPS, and Med Pulse is twice as hot, but requires no ammo, and will do all of its damage to a single spot. I'm sorry, but the Medium Pulse laser is pretty bad and is only good because the Medium Laser is so amazing, but I would rather take a Medium Pulse (probably just a Medium though) over an SRM-4.

I loved SRMs before the nerf, using them on Stalkers and Atlas, at point blank, there was some splash (Jenner-D, 2SRM-4s, not a splat), but hardly any. Why would I want to bring a weapon system that not only requires a lot more skill to hit its targets, but will spread its damage around and then do some worthless splash damage.

Sure the damage of the SRM-4 WILL be more, because of splash, but stripping a mech completely? That's for losers who like to die. I hit a mech front, it goes yellow everywhere. Why in the world would I want to bring a weapon that is random? Just take the splash out and up the damage to be the same. Currently, SRMs are less skill requiring than they were. True, splash means that smaller mechs (me even), would blow up with a random shot, but currently, its like aim at center, fire.

I put a lot of effort into aiming and using SRM-8 like that. Its hard to hit mediums and lights and I not only hit them, but focused the fire in the same spot at range, while moving 152.7 KPH, and sometimes flying, and sometimes I missed. Now, its spread all over. I can't use them to get kills anymore.

I'm not biased at all, I agree, needed a nerf, but at the skill and ammo and weight and lack of focus fire, a Medium Pulse is starting to look a lot better isn't it? Players don't want to bring random weapon systems (current SRMs, do the damage, randomly and spread out), and 8 mans didn't use LRMs already, and we nerf them?

I know its temporary, but nerfing the damage is usually poor design. A Splat can kill in 3 to 4 shots now (THIS DOES MATTER) but in comparison to Hunch-4SP with 2 6s, or a Jenner-D with 2 4s, or any other mech that doesn't carry a ton (maybe about 9 tons haha!), it hurts them far more.

Here is a more humorous comparison for your fancy. I agree, the MG is worthless, the SRM-2 is lacking extremely (currently and before), but the Small Laser is a good weapon system.

Lets compare:

SRM2-1 ton, 1 slot, 3 damage, PLUS spread, DPS .86, HPS .57, effective range, eehhh probably 200 meters for a good pilot, 270 max.

Small Laser-.5 ton, 1 slot, 3 damage, DPS 1, HPS .67, 90m-180m

To me, that's really clear who wins there. The Small Laser, while doing less, is doing it all to one spot (true, it can spread, but at .75 seconds, its not a lot). It has more DPS, and not a lot more HPS. Its much easier to use.

Ok, so that comparison, the Small looks better to me, but then you have one more factor:
The SRM-2 requires ammo, and needs at least 1.

I'm sorry, but I just can't believe anyone brings less than SRM-18 on a mech anymore. Why would you want to spread it out all over when you could just do it to one spot and kill the mech?

Lastly, you know how people say the Raven-3L doesn't dominate anymore? Why is that? I agree its good, but it hasn't changed. SSRMs need some attention too, different than SRMs, but to bring the same SRMs, is no different. Its only because the Raven can't herp derp and let the SSRMs kill mechs alone anymore. The true king? I'm gonna guess the 6 Med Laser Jenner now.

Just remember. A Raven could use about 2-3 tons of ammo, and thats good-plenty, now to do the same, you need like 5 tons? They will run out. Ammo depletion matters on mechs that carry a balanced loadout, but not on the ones that pack 10 tons of SRM ammo (like a Splat), who cares if it goes through ammo like crazy, it has it, and it will blow you up.

[MischiefSC]

I like the damage values.

My suggestions:

LRMs: - A bit of a speed buff. You no longer need to be able to dodge them to avoid death, they're more in line with other weapons. They do however need more shots/ton. I would also say remove the 'missile launch' warning and replace it with one when someone has a lock on you. Thus you can spook people with the lock without wasting ammo. It's also more in line with weapon lock vs warning technology.

SRMs: - I'd say give them a small damage buff. Not much but something. They're the only weapon some mechs (like the A1, C4) really have to fight with. LRMs are a support weapon. SRMs make a good boom for the buck but at present are a tad light. That or a buff to shots/ton. Due to spread and accuracy they are essentially a 130m or less weapon with damage (due to spread) declining out to 270. That's the best way to look at them. Because they are the primary (or an primary) weapon on a lot of mechs they need a bit of a buff (not much) to fill that role.

[PaintedWolf]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

I like the damage values.

My suggestions:

LRMs: - A bit of a speed buff. You no longer need to be able to dodge them to avoid death, they're more in line with other weapons. They do however need more shots/ton. I would also say remove the 'missile launch' warning and replace it with one when someone has a lock on you. Thus you can spook people with the lock without wasting ammo. It's also more in line with weapon lock vs warning technology.

0.7 damage per missile? That's less then table top, and damage is spread, and they have min. range. WTF even have them?

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

SRMs: - I'd say give them a small damage buff. Not much but something. They're the only weapon some mechs (like the A1, C4) really have to fight with. LRMs are a support weapon. SRMs make a good boom for the buck but at present are a tad light. That or a buff to shots/ton. Due to spread and accuracy they are essentially a 130m or less weapon with damage (due to spread) declining out to 270. That's the best way to look at them. Because they are the primary (or an primary) weapon on a lot of mechs they need a bit of a buff (not much) to fill that role.

If that happens nobody is gonna use them at all. Sorry, but just cause a design works does not mean a weapon should nerfed. That's basically the entire rationale X Player made a very good, creative design...X Player MUST be nerfed!

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 05:53 PM.

[Galenit]

PaintedWolf, on 23 March 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

Sorry, but just cause a design works does not mean a weapon should nerfed. That's basically the entire rationale X Player made a very good, creative design...X Player MUST be nerfed!

If a design is outperforming other designs and if a great chunk of the players use it, its a sign for a failure in the balancing and should be corrected. This can be done by weakening (nerfing) the overperforming design or pushing the others.

For lrms prepatch damage without the splashbug was ok, they just had to push ams as counter for it.

And they have to find a solution for heavy boating,
like increasing heat for more then 1 weapons of 1 type (means energy, ballistic or missile) if not chainfired.
As example take 3 lrm launchers, chainfiring them generate normal heat, firing all 3 the same time generate 0+1+2=3 heat more then normal. A A1 firing an alpha will generate 0+1+2+3+4+5=15 more heat then normal.
Hope you understand what i mean, its not easy to explain in a not native language .....

---------------------------------------------------------
For the devs, my impressions after the fix:

LRM damage is a little weak, bring it up to 1 for a missile or increase flightspeed to 150m/s. Maybe more splashradius with the 0.7damage will be ok too and making lrms more like they should be.

But buff ams too:
Increasing the range or damage and making it more effective against srm/ssrm will do something in balancing them too. Just look on your numbers, there is nearly no ams anymore. Give the players an argument to put it on their mechs.

Edited by Galenit, 23 March 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[PaintedWolf]

Galenit, on 23 March 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

If a design is outperforming other designs and if a great chunk of the players use it, its a sign for a failure in the balancing and should be corrected. This can be done by weakening (nerfing) the overperforming design or pushing the others.

It depends on the circumstances. The SRMs are a brawler weapon, the reason they work is because people run right into them or they enter battle in the thick of it. People keep running into them, hoping to take them down directly and complain when they lose. That's like running my Cicada point blank into a Jagermech carrying double AC-20s and qq'ing when I get cored in 2-3 salvos.

And then the devs actually nerfing ac/20s as a consequence. The other reason is teamwork was prevailing instead of 1 on 1 fights and team-games favor specialization.

Specialist builds are also more fun.

Edited by PaintedWolf, 23 March 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[Galenit]

PaintedWolf, on 23 March 2013 - 06:31 PM, said:

It depends on the circumstances. The SRMs are a brawler weapon, the reason they work is because people run right into them or they enter battle in the thick of it.

Specialist builds are also more fun.

You are right with what you say.
But when there is a point where most people use one system over another because its so much better then there is something going the wrong way. Pack as much of x as you can is a sign for bad balancing ... until:
Perfect balancing comes when packing as much x as you can is equal to packing as much y as you can is equal to packing x+y+z.
The tt rules are near this point, but the conversation to mwo give them a lot of work. Changing armorvalues and weaponcooldowns away from then 10sec., letting the player not the dice arm and removing a lot of random stuff creates a complete new base for balancing ....

Edited by Galenit, 23 March 2013 - 06:59 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

I don't even know why we want splash?

Go ahead and ask someone who thinks splash is a good idea why they think it's a good idea. Go on, I dare you. You'll be trapped in a circular logic loop that will melt your brain.

The fix for all of this is easy. Set the missiles to TT values, remove splash damage, call it a day. If you want to get fancy, then make streaks require a relock after every volley. Tadaa, done.

Edited by TOGSolid, 23 March 2013 - 08:21 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Thontor, on 23 March 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

They have to change the grouping too... LRMs should not be focusing on the center torso like they do

Well yeah, but that kinda goes without saying. If they can make streaks lock on to different sections of the mech then I'm curious why they can't make LRMs do the same thing. Give each LRM a random chance to lock on to a different section of the mech and let em rip.

[Wesxander]

Pre upgrade I did 750 tops damage with LRM assault suport with 2 LRM 20 and 2 LRM's 5 with artemis created a Longbow from the original battle tech. Tag self equipped as teamates refuse to use R in most games.

Upgrade did 1750 damage with LRM's stopped playing my LRM mechs. Was way over powered no strat required or planning.

Hot fix Patch lucky if I do 250 damage now with LRM's.

Incidently since the new patches my light mech now gets stuck in buildings far worse than before as well.

If this continues to now favor mech slug fest short range mech I will simplys top playing easy as that.

Someone want explain how a hunchback gets 4 volley of LRm with tag lock on him thats 50 LRM's with 4 rounds landing and he walks away not even red con armor or a single weapons stripped off ?

Oldboard game battle tech he might be survivng some but highly unlikely. Mech walks 3 range 7 hexes away from a still LRm carrier with tag with artemis. Results would be a stripped leg and arm and hurting torso area on average.

Anyone who says LRMS are working correctly now needs to play the minature game and understand where this game came from. When medium mech can walk out infront of a longbow and not get stripped of armor its laughing at the purpose of LRM's.

Before you say skill about battle tech your turning this game into first person shooter favoring fast reflexs over strats and thinking.

[ICEFANG13]

TOGSolid, on 23 March 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

Go ahead and ask someone who thinks splash is a good idea why they think it's a good idea. Go on, I dare you. You'll be trapped in a circular logic loop that will melt your brain.

The fix for all of this is easy. Set the missiles to TT values, remove splash damage, call it a day. If you want to get fancy, then make streaks require a relock after every volley. Tadaa, done.

Someone gets it, random weapons are a lot less fun than consistent weapons.

PS of course LRMs should not all hit the center. I hope PGI does a good job with the real fix.

[Mjolnir]

Thontor, on 23 March 2013 - 08:48 PM, said:

All these people giving low end of match damage numbers for LRMs... I rarely used LRMs before this hotfix, and have used them more than ever since then to test them out and be able to give feedback on the changes on both the giving and receiving ends... And I'm just not seeing damage numbers that low...

I've pugged with a AS7-D-DC with 2 ERLL + 3 Art-LRM15
and a TBT-3C with only 2 Art-LRM15 +TAG

And 250 damage is probably on the low end of the damage I've gotten, and that was on River City with the Atlas... Not a great map for LRMs

Take it from someone who's been boating LRMs on his Awesome since the game was available - it's much, much worse now. Enough that I'm going to stop playing until they fix LRMs.

Your experience is an outlier. You openly admit to little experience with LRMs. Why would we reliably add that to the conversation?

[Shibas]

I think the new changes are working out pretty good. Though I would like to see the LRM damage be increased slightly; They seem like they should be doing slightly more damage then they are.

LRM
(0.7) + (0.7 * 0.4) = 0.98

SRM
(1.5) + (1.5 * 0.4) = 2.1
I see what you did there...TableTop.

I would like to see LRM damage get put up to 0.8. That should help it a bit and making it closer to the SRM damage ratio.

(0.8) + (0.8 * 0.4) = 1.12
Just slightly more than 1 and SRM being slightly more than 2.