2002 replies to this topic

[Exoth3rmic]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

This is one of our largest concerns. In fact, it's one of the reasons we don't just jam in more game modes.

I think, for me especially, this is somewhat missing the point. I don't actually like the current game mode setup - the original "placement holders" as they were described and whatever demographic i'm currently considered to be in I cannot personally see myself continuing to play them beyond release of CW - which obviously has to be a panacea.

With third person, there is often a very substantial proportion of the population that play games with 3rd person and then wish it wasn't there in the first place. Gears of war is a good example where people move around with 3rd person (because they have to) and then get the over the shoulder FPS esq view for actually shooting things. Lots of other titles etc have this sort of function from rainbow six (the bad ones), splinter cell etc etc.

Point being, if 3rd person isn't done flawlessly - simply having it will turn it in to a gimmick and possibly even a detraction in the long run. The demographic you yourself mention in posts above should have absoloutely no issue with actually playing in an FPS style.

I urge you to implement 3rd person as soon as you can, monitor the que with it in and then remove it entirely if a tiny % of players exist in the que. Or instead of having a "3rd person only" que have a "training" que which allows players with only X number of games or X number of XP to enter it and have the option for 3rd person keeping 3rd person out of the other ques.

I have serious doubts that there are that many people not yet playing MWO who will come to it for the long term with their wallet open simply because of 3rd person exists. I'm happy to have those doubts allayed by your accounts department - but otherwise I see a large number of man hours spent both in development and player testing for no actual gain in community satisfaction, long term community numbers or gameplay benefit.

[GalaxyBluestar]

implementaion on this needs to be made with caution.

not for the mechanics or the pleasure and displeasure of vets and newbies alike but simply...

wait till you have a strong enough playerbase before you split it down the middle. the current plan in the op is for these views to be seperate ques like game modes. nothing like cutting a line down the centre of your player base too early to ruin the whole thing.

so i'll wait and see, pgi have those numbers not me, so if they reckon they can double or tripple the total player base with this good luck to them. i'll stay mostly with the old grumpy vets in "sim" mode but i'll occasionally see how 3pv modes play out, i'll enjoy seeing my self destroy things and dodging what i can see coming for me around corners!

[chumppi]

I don't understand this... why? If 90% of the people playing the game and using the forums have before voted on polls that NO 3RD PERSON VIEW, WHY?

[Yami Kero]

I think a lot of what has been said covers all bases pretty well so I will keep it short.

Please don't split the community in "core players" and "non-MechWarrior players, non-core players".

Please don't allow 3p to become a crutch for new players.

As for constructive criticism:

Make 3p a training grounds feature only.

If you want 3p in the actual game, only allow it in regular matches that are segregated from 'normal' matches.

And, most importantly, don't allow 3p in any form of competitive gameplay.

PS: As a European I have no idea whom outside the US is refered to with the 3p preference statement. Most Europeans I play with and know like FPS. Rarely do I see anyone play Gears of Wars or one of its clones.

Edited by Yami Kero, 22 March 2013 - 02:05 AM.

[Schrottfrosch]

I think 3rd person is a good thing for the show, that means looking at your own paintjob and making videos and to see wether a mech is really behind a building (or other cover), or not. For beginners this might actually be a very good thing, especially in regard of practicing moving the mech, as the controls can be complicated for newcomers. Even the so called "professional gamer" dudes can profit from 3rd person, as they can study the behaviour of their mech in certain situations and can do better diagnostics on why they got killed, even though they thought, they were in full cover.

So I think it would be ok to have an arcade 3rd person mode.

However there should also be the "interwebs-robots are srs business" - mode. This one should be the mode for the "professional" and competitive gamers - which means CW-mode should be FPS-mode only.

PS: Just think about the epic videos you can create with 3rd person!

Edited by Schrottfrosch, 22 March 2013 - 01:48 AM.

[ryoma]

Remember the become a hero events? How will 3rd person effect events like that? I don't want to compete with people that have third person view.

I am personally against third person in all respects. The cockpit view of this game is one of the reasons I enjoy it so much, to have third person as even an option break my immersion.

[Ghost Rider LSOV]

Since the 3rd person is supposed to help with new players, I also agree with the people saying it would be useful in:
Training Grounds
Tutorial

Definitely not wanting it in any way of competitive gameplay.

[icey]

If 3PP has to happen for the game to survive, then so be it. At least make it a good 3PP implementation that doesnt kill the game. I don't know if its been suggested, but:

* make a 3PP that confers no advantage - does not render anything that isnt visible from 1PP at a max fov of 90 - mechs fade from sight when they go beside/behind you if your torso isnt pointed at them. no target boxes, no rear view mirror, no peeking around corners/over hills. zero advantage. this includes incoming missiles.

* zero freelook in 3PP. none. your camera is locked to torso always.

* if 3PP has zero advantage, then the segmentation of the game queues can be avoided.

at worst, you'll still have the advantage of being able to see environmental obstacles, which will make moving around objects easier, but you'll have the downside of having that little blindspot in front of your mech all the time as well, and the usual kludginess that 3PP does in every game when youre backed up against obstacles.

Edited by icey, 22 March 2013 - 02:29 AM.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

I think 3rd person will be a very welcome addition to the game. I am looking forward to getting some great screenshots.

It would be very useful to be able to swap between 1st and 3rd person view in games where 3rd is enabled. I can't see switching causing any great game-balance problems and would encourage players to explore both options rather than being locked into one for the entire match.

[CG Chicken Kn]

Something to consider.

Other than a portion of the experienced players who MAY use 3rd person, think about who would use it most.
New players coming from "simpler" games who have trouble with mech movement mechanics.
Console players who have played some of the terribad console versions of mech games.
Various others who think 3rd person will improve their game play.

Do any of the rabid fanbase/forum users consider any of these categories a threat on the battlefield?
Because I don't.
It's like playing a car racing sim in 3rd person view. Easier for people playing with a controller. (Debateable)
But not faster around the track by a country mile.

If PGI thinks this is a needed move on their part, so be it.
The stomping delivered to these users will change their minds about the usefulness of it.

I agree with those who said that one should not be able to switch between views in combat, as in once you hit launch with 3rd person selected, you are stuck with it for the duration. Being able to flip back and forth would yield a combat advantage, so that is not acceptable.

Bryan, you have a tough row to hoe here. Good luck, and let me know if you need more tinfoil....

Or since 3rd person requires a camera above and behind the mech in question, just have it drop with a 30 foot flag sticking up in the air. Camera has to go somewhere, it can't be invisible. That would be fair.

[Mao of DC]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

We would like to invite your constructive feedback on how you would like to see 3rd person executed.

Here is my constructive feedback for the 3rd person veiw issue. Mind you I don't want it in game at all. But that is my opinion not feedback.

The ONLY way for it to remain fair is to have it set up in a way that if you can't see it in 1st person you can't see it. I have some examples here.

If I am in 3rd person and parked in cover behind a hill I can't "look" over the hill and "see" the mechs moveing on the other side of the hill.

If I'm in cover behind a building I can't look around a corner and "see" if it is save to move out of cover.

If I am looking at the wonderful paint job on the front of my mech I can't "see" behind me.

Another bit of feedback IF you allow players to "see" as I have mentioned above:

Perpective changes mid-match must have a cooldown time. To prevent players from switching back and forth. Switch from 1st person to 3rd no problem you can't switch back for 5 secs and vice-versa. This goes hand and hand with my next points.

Don't allow weapon fire at all in 3rd person, or only allow an very limited range for them say 90m. Long range shots should be serverly hampered in 3rd person. If the reason you want to add 3rd person is so players can learn to pilot their mechs. Ok np now they can pilot their mech but not fight very effectively. After a while they will hopefully learn to not rely on 3rd person.

Any allowed weaopns fire should not be very accurate. In some cases this is a no brainer if you are in 3rd person and are trying to shoot at someone above you, your view gets blocked by you body.

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

One poster mentioned something that I thought was more than fair. List some of the ideas we've been toying with in order for it to work. These are just SOME of the ideas we've been discussing:

• Camera is locked horizontally to the torso. This is not a peek around corners mode.
  
• Camera is locked vertically to the torso, you can only look up and down as far as your torso can.
  
• When approaching cover (to rocks/building etc), the camera pulls IN so FoV is greatly reduced when standing close to something.
  
• 3rd Person is not a free-cam.
  
• HUD will be significantly reduced if not completely removed.
  
• LOS targetting is NOT affected by 3rd person. If you cannot target it from 1st person, you cannot target it in 3rd.
  
• ONLY the targeted enemy (Press R) can be identified in 3rd person... all other HUD indicators are turned off.

Again, these are a few of the ideas we're working on. Please keep that in mind when posting.

I guess they read and liked my feedback. This is farly close to what I had in mind.

Edited by Mao of DC, 24 March 2013 - 02:42 AM.

[Sol Fin]

Personally I don't like 3rd person view, since it reduces immersion into the game. You don't feel like you're driving a 80ton fat shooting brick

On the other hand I can understand while people like more arcade-style/easy-mode play, which is encouraged by 3rd person play.

I think 3rd-person view will give a decent advantage to player like additional field of view, looking behind the cover and, what is important - no "cockpit shake".

What I do think is that it is important to implement some BIG feature for old fans too, since latest additions and announcements were directed against olf-school fans and promises that were made during closed beta. Clans and/or CW come in mind.

[Goldfish]

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Try not to view this as Community Warfare vs 3rd person. They don't compete for development time. We are actively working on CW right now. 3rd person has one person assigned to it... me.

I'm not trying to sound like i'm doing CW vs 3PV, I was just trying to say the best way to bring in a larger fan base is to take a different path, a lot of people will be angry, and even feel betrayed if 3PV gets added. I love this game and want to see it succeed just as much as you do. I cannot see anyway to balance 3PV without causing friction between the community and causing issues with the balance of the game, it would break a lot just to add a few new players..

[Mishatron]

Would it be feasible to implement some kind of "fog of war" type effect for third-person users? i.e., prevent them from being able to see anything apart from terrain that isn't actually in their 'mech's field of view. You could apply some kind of haze or greyscale filter to areas that are out of view to make it clear that there *could* be enemies there which aren't visible. I'm not sure how much of an FPS hit that would be, but I assume it is similar to masking-out the cockpit from vision mode filters, which I understand is in the works.

While I realise this could be slightly confusing to new players, it would allow them to manoeuvre more easily by being aware of their position relative to the landscape, without allowing them to peek around corners or look behind them without turning.

As I understand it, the main reason for needing 3rd-person is to make it easier for players to control their mech, and especially to understand the different orientation of legs/torso. The main objection to it is that it gives players a potential advantage by allowing them to see things which are out of view for 1st-person players. I think this system would offer the best of both worlds.

[EmyLightsaber]

I think a compromise would be if you use 3rd person, you should not be able to use AMS, ECM, or BAP. You also would show up on the entire enemy team's radar at all times when using 3rd person.

[CG Chicken Kn]

Oh and to add to my idea that the camera for 3rd person has to be mounted somewhere, and not just some magical floating god view, make the mast it is mounted on targetable.

That would be fair.

[DirePhoenix]

chumppi, on 22 March 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

I don't understand this... why? If 90% of the people playing the game and using the forums have before voted on polls that NO 3RD PERSON VIEW, WHY?

Your data is in error. The "90%" figure that everyone spouts is from a poll where there were 5100 total participants. 90% if those participants selected the "I am against Third Person View" option, and 10% selected the "I am for Third Person View" option.

However, if you look at the total members figure at the bottom of the main forum page, you will see that there are at least 450,000 members. On top of that, we have confirmation that this figure is not even counting all of MWO's playerbase. So roughly 90% of at most 10% of the playerbase "voted" (polls are not actual votes, you're not voting on anything when you participate in polls like these) against Third Person View. In other words, out of the ~450,000 forum users, 1% were pro-third person, 9% were con-third person, and 90% did not participate at all. And keep in mind that's just the number of people that even show up on the forums.

[TexAce]

Hm

interesting topic. My opinion: Too many pitfalls, mostly because the MWO userbase is too small I fear.

Save yourself a lot of trouble and release 3P only in Training Grounds. Make Training Ground mendatory for new players somehow so they know it exists and that they need to use it as their first go-to.

If at all, make the 3P view an option (yes, switchable in-game) for as long as you are a "cadet". Meaning in your 20-some first games, you can turn it on and off as you desire, but after you are done with being a cadet (you can pronounce this kinda big in the game) you have no 3P any more. No more crutches.

This is a great compromise. You get the best of two worlds. The newbies have an easier start and everyone else is happy.

Your only problem right now is, that you have no training sequence where you learn everything about your mech with a guide, like even the most simplistic FPS have at the begging of the game. If you add this, you don't have to bother with 3P and its many pitfalls.

Also a while back I had another idea but the TT-harcorers smashed it:

Make 3P an module, weighting 1 ton. It should be a camera-drone that flies behind you and can be seen by your enemies. Meaning it can be shot down!
It would give you an advantage as long as you have it but you have to trade tons for it.

Bryan Ekman, on 21 March 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:

Yes we agree, 3rd person is not the entire solution, only part of it. Resources are already working primarily on those exact features. Not one single person is working on 3rd person.

THAT makes me very otpimistic. You will realize that this is the only thing you need. And not 3P.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no 3P hater, I only played MW4 and because how much I liked it I play MWO.
And I really would like to see my mech sometimes, because they look so cool, especially with paints and camo but I think 3P has just too many flaws for such a user-base.

Edited by TexAss, 22 March 2013 - 03:33 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

RocketDog, on 22 March 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

If you don't want to play 3rd or mixed 3rd/1st person, just play in 1st-person-only matches. That's what I'm going to do. What I'm not going to do is to try and force people to play their game the way I want to play it because that would be stupid.

Splitting the community is a dumb idea... and should NOT be done as it hurts the game more than helping it.

[AndyHill]

What's the right place to say that separating US and EU players should never happen and that there are ways to keep them together while still allowing for regional game servers across the world?

Anyway, as far as the 3rd person mode goes, just don't. There is no way of making it equal to 1st person and separating the 3rd and 1st persons will end up splitting the player base. The 3rd persons will not graduate to 1st person and you will end up balancing stuff for two different playing modes at the same time. I know it's tempting to go for the WoT audience, but based on my experience the biggest reason for my WoTing buddies who haven't switched over to MWO (like I have) has been the pace of the game, 3rd person is not an issue. They might actually even prefer 1st person, but to them, MWO is far too fast-paced. Of course they're not a good sample of the player base, but then again the idea of 3rd person view magically helping people grasp the concept of piloting a 'mech is an assumption with not too much foundation in facts and I would like to point out that there are

1) other reasons for the WoT/CoD/etc. crowd not wanting to switch over to MWO
2) probably more effective ways of easing the learning curve

1st person mode might actually be one of the selling factors of MWO. Also please consider this:

'Mechs are cool to us, the people who voted a massive NO to 3rd person view. For the large public and namely many of the WoT crowd they are "kiddy scifi stuff come play with real tanks with us etc." -stuff. Now if 3rd person is implemented and manages to reduce the 1st person pool enough, you might not only fail to raise interest in the just-like-MWO-but-with-real-tanks crowd, but also alienate the we-love-stompy-robots crowd.

Here's a simple idea: add an optional HUD arrow pointing to the direction your feet are going and maybe even show the real-time path just like modern cars' rear view camera does when offering reversing assistance for the less experienced drivers. Look it up, it's existing technology that works pretty well for a similar purpose everywhere around the world every day.

Ok I actually looked it up for you; how could a 3rd person view be more helpful than this: if you're trying to help people visualize the direction their 'mech is going?

Edited by AndyHill, 22 March 2013 - 03:38 AM.