Protection, on 26 March 2013 - 10:04 PM, said:
100% better meant better in every respect without a trade-off or drawback.
Inferior means not as well optimized.
Look, I get it, you like SHS for the sake of SHS, but your build could be replicated more efficiently with DHS.
This isn't interesting gameplay, this is static to me. I want a more interesting purpose for SHS. I feel that there should be a reason to see more variety among high level competitive mechs, and that changing how SHS work would be better.
This game doesn't care that DHS were rare or expensive. Almost every single player has them on almost every single one of their mechs. They are more common than dirt. Stock mechs barely exist, but AC/20 Catapults and Streak Ravens are front liners. The game should do more to vary gameplay with interesting choices, not leave us with just a boring "solve the heat math equation to optimize the build" system.
I still agree that DHS are better than SHS in almost every way. I'm just arguing the that they shouldn't be removed and cannon builds shouldn't be changed just because they fit into a universe that actually follows a more realistic progressive world than this game has in it at this time. Do I need to build it and type it in large print?
Also, things SHS are good at:
- cooling a mech down (they still do it, though not as well).
- being a crit buffer.
- raising you hear cap per heat sink.
- being cheap and standard (for those of us saying c-bills).
- having a lower repair cost, if that ever goes back into the game.
Your a beta tester, right? With lots of c-bills to apparently burn? Then test this. Make a mech with lots of hot weapons. Have one set up with standard heat sinks and another mech with double. Have the same heat cooling on each mech (SHS should have more individual sinks). Go into the training grounds and alpha till you overheat. Count the number of alphas before shutdown for each mech. Each should cool off at the same speed. SHS should be able to contain more heat before needing to shut down. Post results here.
Does DHS cool for less weight? That wasn't the question. This thread proposes the removal of SHS as they have no benefit, yet I just mentioned two benefits, small or not.
To place into new terms, DHS is good for DPS. SHS is good for burst damage and longer couplings between.
Now, if this thread was talking about ways to improve SHS to keep them competitive, then I think this discussion would be different. We'd be tossing around ideas on possible changes to the current system. As for this thread, it's title and its original post, it all asks for SHS to be removed, not for them to be reworked. See how that influences the discussion?
Atheus, on 26 March 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:
Another better stalker for you, since you're not happy with the first one (
though in reality you should just do this or
this). You drop some armor you'll likely rarely use, drop a ton of ammo you'll also probably rarely use, and drop 2 medium lasers for 2 large lasers which you definitely will use constantly. Generally the DHS rebuilds have strived not to change any weapons around, but this is one case where you have to get a little creative to figure out what you're going to do with that extra weight. I wouldn't personally run this mech right now, since LRM's are pathetic at the moment, but if you're a guy who likes lasers and LRMs, this is, in my humble opinion, a far stronger and more versatile mech to be piloting. You may put the large lasers in your arms or whatever, but the bottom line is you'll alpha harder, and shoot further like this.
It's a little moot, though. You're basing your resistance on the cost of DHS. That's not what this discussion is really about. Surely cost exists in the game as a consideration for those who are just playing moderately and constantly buying mechs, but that doesn't negate the argument that DHS are always better equipment for the purpose of dissipating heat. Your quirky ballistic only mechs are mechs I would personally never use. If you like them, well, great, but the heat sinks in them will dissipate more heat if they were doubles, giving you the option as a builder to not be cornered into using only ballistics just to avoid overheating issues. If DHS become the de facto standard, I don't agree that mechs should just be 1.5 million more expensive, but I also feel the massive fee for upgrading/downgrading heat sinks is a scam. The most I would agree to is an extra 500k on the cost of a mech with DHS, which I think anyone could be happy with if they all came with DHS, but if I had my druthers I'd just say go by the cost of the individual DHS, which is what... 6k each over the cost of SHS? Well, whatever.
The thrust of the thread is that SHS just plain suck when compared to DHS - and when it comes to stock and trial mech configurations, they suck very hard. That won't change unless someone changes something about this game - be it how stock mechs are designed, how SHS work, how DHS work, or any number of contributing factors. Until that happens, though, new players will continue to experience the game through the lens of how enjoyable it is in the worst equipment available put into a ridiculously bad configuration.
Personally, I wouldn't mind if they leave SHS in the game as a sort of antique. Just redesign all the stock mechs to use DHS, and stop pretending this is tabletop. People could still downgrade to SHS and experience the joys of piloting an inferior mech - sort of like driving an antique car, but for those not looking for a nostalgia trip, they won't get stuck behind the wheel of a
Model T in a race against
Audi R15's.
Inferior or not, this build (in the score board I posted up) took on 2 Atlases, an Awesome, a catapult, and a Centurion. Would have eaten another Cataphrat, but he got my last side torso before I could drill his exposed center torso. Ran to their base to cap and an Atlas killed the Cataphrat. Somehow I lived to tell the tale.
Could my build be improved upon? Yes. I don't believe I said it couldn't. I like it this way, and I see all the proposed changes to cost more than they are worth. Explain to me why I should buy these upgrades? What is 10 more tubes of LRMs worth? Are large lasers and there increase to heat going to be worth the extra cost and damage? Do I need the extra range of the large lasers when I have LRMs? For me, the balance of range and fire power in my Stalker works well. I rarely overheat. And if my information is correct, I have almost the same cooling as with DHS and yet have a much higher heat threshold.
Those builds are set up not needing to use DHS. The extra tons are in ammo. And I tossed them together real quick as a point. You can waste your c-bills on an unneeded upgrade if you wish on designs like those. That's your choice.
Once more, as no one seems to read this part, I'm not arguing if DHS are better. They are. They are suppose to be better. I just disagree with them being removed from the game. If you, as the original poster says but doesn't do, want to discuss ways to make SHS more competitive and discuss ways to change them, I'm all open to it. However, removing them I am completely against. I'm not arguing if something is worse than something else, I'm arguing that SHS should not be removed from the game.
Sifright, on 27 March 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:
I like how his entire argument boils down to.. "W-w-w-well okay! I might be building my mech really really badly b-b-b-b-but I still win matches and stuff!!"
Hahahaha, the resistance people have to using better mech builds and playing in their special awful snow flakes is hilarious.
also... what a tsuntsun.
W..w..well... LEARN TO READ. I don't just win matches, I'm in the top section of the charts just about every time. Could my mech be improved? Probably. If you could read instead of troll, you'd figure out that I'm saying that my build is effective, even if not "optimized" by your selfish standards.
My "resistance" is that I'm getting small improvements for a high cost. I don't have endless in game money. I also like a challenge. You are talking to someone who seems able to pilot the stock mechs without much problems. problems I also seem to be in the handful of people able to hit a target with blind fired LRMs (from responses I get on the forums whenever I mention doing it). Are DHS better? Once more YES. Are SHS useless? I've presented a couple of think a SHS are useful for, for even if it isn't that effective with those bonuses.
So, if the topic is being changed from "remove these useless SHS", and its going to move to "what can be changed to make choosing SHS worth it". I can discuss that. Proposing that SHS should be removed, I give a resounding No on that topic because they can still be used to a decent effect. (Are DHS still better? Yes.)
FupDup, on 27 March 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:
I'll use a famous phrase to describe why: "It's better to have and not need than to need and not have." The advantage might be negligible, but it is still an advantage that will never, ever hurt you (unless you're really short on spacebucks). It's ~200% heat efficiency that you didn't have before. It's like picking up somebody's lost dollar bill from the ground.
So it's best to make my Chevy metro into a hybrid car so I can get 0.5 mpg better over my already good 50mpg rating? I should spend thousands of dollars into a metro to produce a slightly better mpg gas rating? A car that is only worth maybe a thousand dollars?
Why waste the in game c-bills on upgrades you might not need then? I'd upgrade it if I feel it needs it later. My Jagermech needed DHS to function well with 2 AC20s. However, I saved up enough c-bills for the AC20s first, then got endo fir ammo needs. Then I got DHS in as it was running hot. If I chose to go with dual gauss, I would have probably skipped the DHS as by playing it I would fine that heat wasn't a concern. Even it I placed 2 med lasers in, I probably still wouldn't need DHS in that build, but I'd test it first and if it ran hot, then I'd get DHS in.
I just don't see the need for shoving DHS into everything if it doesn't really need it. Can and do most builds benefit from DHS? Sure. I'll give that. Does that mean we should remove SHS? Not even close.
As a final note:
- yes, DHS are better in almost every way.
- could my Stalker build (one of a very few still using SHS out of all the mechs I own) be improved by DHS? Most likely.
- should SHS be removed from the game? No.
- could SHS use some kind of a mechanic to make it a choice to stay with them? Sure, if someone was discussing it. I think they could make the heat cap more per sink, making them more useful for bursts of damage, but less useful for continued fire.
- are we discussing ways to make the different sinks useful in their own rights, or are we talking about removing SHS completely? If we are talking change, then the original post and title are way off subject and should be changed to match the desired conversation.
- my build was to prove that, though not as efficient as builds with DHS, a build can still be perfectly viable with SHS. It was not posted to in any way prove that SHS are better, when they don't cool as well.
- to say it again though, SHS are better at raising your heat threshold cap as it raises per individual sink.
- SHS can work well as a crit buffer, if you wanted or needed it. Is it great at this? Not really as it probably won't save you. Consider it like a very poor man's case, but instead of reducing damage from ammo explosions, it instead reduces the chance of the ammo taking the hit.
Have I made myself clear? Or should I say it one more time?
I KNOW DHS ARE BETTER THAN SHS IN JUST ABOUT EVERY WAY. I'M ONLY AGAINST THEM BEING REMOVED FROM THE GAME. They still do have some uses. Now, if we are instead talking about ways to change SHS, let's get talking about that instead. And don't tell me again that was the intent of this thread,because if so, I'm not seeing it being discussed yet...
10
I don't use That lab very often and made a novice user mistake. 
And when you introduce the concept of converting Dollars to MC, that relationship becomes even more direct.
