183 replies to this topic

[Godswrath]

Caleb Lee, on 31 March 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

No... I'm saying that I am constantly paired with the following types of players as the other 4 on our teams:

1) Little to no damage, can't hit what they do shoot at.
2) Run in as singletons.
3) No cohesiveness when they are a team, i.e. Pugs
4) Tell you to F*** off if you give any directions whatsoever.
5) No patience or situational awareness.
6) STOCK mechs.
7) Run out of ammo with cheese builds like 6 AC2 Jaegermechs.

Yeah, it's been fun. Really... Wasn't this bad prior to ELO.

Ugh... Ive been there, mentioned one little thing at the beginning of match ("stick together guys") ....was then told "yes mother" and then when it fell apart...was told in the after chat "yeah sticking together really helped" ...I was almost shocked...almost..I felt like, really your going to complain about a tactic that generally is a good rule of thumb as apposed to everyone running all over the place?

[FerretGR]

Elfman, on 02 April 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

O come on ferret stop being so aggressive in defence of Elo and blaming people for what's a sucky system.

I'm sorry if you see my insistence that folks apply some common sense to their situation and stop jumping conclusions as aggressive.

I honestly don't think you're being paired with beginners as often as you say you are. I'm not. I think there's more psychology at work here than there is matchmaker error: folks tend to remember things that confirm their beliefs (confirmation bias), so they remember the blowouts and the losses and ignore the good close fights and the wins. It's human nature, I don't blame anyone for it, I'm just trying to get people to step back and to realize that's likely what's happening here.

The other factor here is the nature of this game. Sometimes folks die quickly. They come around a corner and there everyone is and they're focused and down before they can do any significant damage. They get headshot. They do something boneheaded (it happens to the best of us). All of these things (and a million other things) could account for a 100-damage game from an otherwise competent player. When this happens, the damage output of the other team is entirely focused on less folks, so the domino effect can happen and if folks aren't extra careful more than one player goes down quickly. Again, nature of the game, IMHO. You have little evidence that these folks are beginners or suck at the game beyond the single game you've played with them.

The simple fact is that this is not a "sucky system" from my perspective. I'm about 400 games in post-Elo and I'm at 51% win percentage. I'm meeting up with real competition (I've seen Yokaiko in a few games fwiw) and I'm having challenging, fun games for the most part. I'm just asking for people who claim something different to prove what they're seeing. I've seen no evidence. Given this, I'm just asking folks to stop making assumptions and jumping to conclusions about Elo being broken.

[Yokaiko]

FerretGR, on 02 April 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I honestly don't think you're being paired with beginners as often as you say you are.

Ok I killed three trial mechs yesterday morning alone I played from about 7am untill 9:30. I felt bad about it, but they had to go.

One more this morning, I only played about 4-5 games....again, only damn kill (out weighed 210 tons, I counted).

Edited by Yokaiko, 02 April 2013 - 10:39 AM.

[PPMcBiggs]

Yokaiko, on 02 April 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I'm convinced my experience ******* sucks, no more no less.

Everything else is being zerged, not having a light against 3 lights on a big map, having a 250+ ton weight mismatch on and on and on.

Christ the other day I was top damage 3 times ....in a ******* spider.

I can't tell you how many times I've been running around with another light and we killed two lights in the process of capping and THOSE WERE THE ONLY KILLS.

Over and over and over. It's ceased to be even slightly amusing.

Hell of they were even close games, I would be fine with that.

They aren't its *** stomp after *** stomp and if blows.

+1

My experience is almost exactly the same. I cannot count how many rounds lately have been a complete steamroll over my team. I am left at the top of the leaderboard for my team with more damage then the rest of team COMBINED. You cannot tell me those guys were even close to as good as me if they are getting 10% the damage I am.

Something is broke with Elo and it sucks for me.

Sometimes I will get on a win streak, but I can tell my luck has shifted to get me teamed up with better guys.

What gives elo? Spread the suck out.

[FerretGR]

Yokaiko, on 02 April 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

I'm convinced my experience ******* sucks, no more no less.

There's no reason from a statistics perspective that, based on Elo, anyone else would have an experience that differs from yours in any way.

Yokaiko, on 02 April 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

Ok I killed three trial mechs yesterday morning alone I played from about 7am untill 9:30. I felt bad about it, but they had to go.

If you're consistently facing trial mechs, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? Both teams are being equally screwed if this is the case, so you can't blame the matchmaker for your loss.

Edited by FerretGR, 02 April 2013 - 10:40 AM.

[Yokaiko]

FerretGR, on 02 April 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:

There's no reason from a statistics perspective that, based on Elo, anyone else would have an experience that differs from yours in any way.




If you're consistently facing trial mechs, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? Both teams are being equally screwed if this is the case, so you can't blame the matchmaker for your loss.

Last 15 games, I've won 4.

If that is working as intended....there is a serious issue.

Edited by Yokaiko, 02 April 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[FerretGR]

If your W/L is still above .5 despite your losses, it's indeed working as intended.

[Caleb Lee]

FerretGR, on 01 April 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

Yes, everyone is always on the team full of newbies piloting mediums versus the team of organized pros with 3 assaults. If it was happening, shouldn't it occasionally happen to the other team?

It does happen though. I've had 4 man teams join our 4 man as well. I've played matches where it STARTED as a 5v8 match and rather than pull a mech or two from our team we enjoyed a +3 advantage when it was clear it wasn't 2x4-man on our side.

Put it this way... it's not any more FUN to be on the giving end than the receiving end if you are a competitor.

Back in high school I played 6 man football on the state championship team and somehow made it to the all-star game as well. In 6-man there's a rule where if you are ahead 45 points at half-time they call the game. We would routinely drive 3-5 hours to play a team, then after one quarter have to put our JV in and even then we'd still 45 teams from time to time.

It WASN'T FUN. This is what it feels like to me and I'm not enjoying it one way or another.

I LOVE the matches that end up with only a mech alive on ours or the others side where it came down to a single small/medium laser. Those are EPIC.

[Yokaiko]

FerretGR, on 02 April 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

If your W/L is still above .5 despite your losses, it's indeed working as intended.

Than **** this game.

I have 250 games, JUST in lights, there is no way, its still overseeded.

Edited by Yokaiko, 02 April 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

ProtoformX, on 31 March 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

No, evidently you're unable to read, or comprehend. He's stating that Elo is placing terrible/new trial mech players on his team to make up for his much higher Elo. Hardly fair imo.

It's hardly fair, but the alternitive is making you wait 30+ minutes for a single match.

PGI had to stop the bleeding somehow while they are busy with bug fixes.

[Yokaiko]

lockwoodx, on 02 April 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

PGI had to stop the bleeding somehow while they are busy with bug fixes.

Yeah, so where the **** are those.

Notice no missile changes today? As nice as it is being able to shrug off LRM, really?

Edited by Yokaiko, 02 April 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[MurnShaw]

Caleb, by matching less skilled players with you, the hope is eventually they will glean and learn skills from watching you play and become just as awesome as you are at this game. Obviously the only reason you're not being matched with great players like you is because there aren't enough of them in the game. This is a problem of supply and demand. You demand cream of the crop, but the supply is not there. The best solution is obviously to invest some time and train some newbies, bringing them to your bracket level.

You can instill capitalism into this game. Be the job creator, not the angry old white man screaming, "Dey took ma wiiiiiins!"

That'll show all of the socialists!

Caleb Lee, on 31 March 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

I am NOT soloing. PUG on public comms (Comstar NA) or with friends (when I win the most).

What I'd like to know, is since when is forcing someone to lose a good thing. Completely kills incentive to play.

This should have been an American game. At least they aren't socialist (yet).



It's not an equal force though. 4v8 can't win unless the other team does something really stupid. As a rule, the other half of our team routinely does less than one of us damage wise. Sometimes not even half.

[FerretGR]

Caleb Lee, on 02 April 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

It does happen though. I've had 4 man teams join our 4 man as well.

I'm not saying it never happens. This is an early stage of the implementation of the matchmaker, it's never going to be perfect and it certainly isn't right now. What I'm trying to counter is the idea that it's ALWAYS happening... that folks are always getting stuck with a team full of jokers while their opponents are always like your 6 man football squad.

I think low population is very likely a cause of bad matches. I play at high population times, so I accept that I'll inevitably see less of it than others. I'm simply pointing out that nobody is being targeted by the matchmaker "because their Elo is too high" or for any other reason.

If the matchmaker is screwing up, it's doing it for everyone, not just you or your 4-man, so stop blaming it for your losses. Statistically, you're rolling as much as you're being rolled. If you're not, your Elo is too high and that will right itself.

I hear where you're coming from, though, facerolls are no fun no matter which side you're on. Hopefully the matchmaker in "tweaking pass 1" gets better at evenly matching teams once the players have been selected.

Edited by FerretGR, 02 April 2013 - 10:55 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

MadPanda, on 31 March 2013 - 07:28 PM, said:

Well who was the commander? If the spot was open, you should have taken it and replied to him with your new yellow text; "Yes I am your commander, son."

Yeeeaaahhh... (See, I'm very incredulous you even think that)

See, the typical anti-social, "I'll never go into a pre-made" pants on head ****** runs out does what ever the **** he wants, getting himself and sometimes one or two others of his team killed through some stupid dumb *** bone head manuever.

One thing that PGI should abso-*******-lutely do is mark the pre-made teams on each side. After the match, each team member of each pre-made on both sides should be indicated by Pre-A, Pre-B, Pre-C, and so on, so that you can see, "Oh my side had 2, 3 man pre-mades, and 2 pugs, and the other team had 1 4 man pre-made, and 4 pugs..."

Why PGI insists on maintaining all the 'mystery' of what the heck is going on in your drops and games escapes me other than the fact they don't want to be called on some 'unfavorable' tweaking...

[Yokaiko]

Dimento Graven, on 02 April 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

One thing that PGI should abso-*******-lutely do is mark the pre-made teams on each side. After the match,

After the match absolutely. Otherwise you would see four drops as soon as each match started.

Remember when the drop zones started you facing in the wrong direction. How many games did it make it 15 seconds into the game and you saw two names pop up from running straight out of bounds and not noticing XXX has killed XXX.

Yeah, never underestimate the derp.

[Caleb Lee]

Yokaiko, on 02 April 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

After the match absolutely. Otherwise you would see four drops as soon as each match started.

Remember when the drop zones started you facing in the wrong direction. How many games did it make it 15 seconds into the game and you saw two names pop up from running straight out of bounds and not noticing XXX has killed XXX.

Yeah, never underestimate the derp.

Most of those were bots though farming exp/cbills. At least those are gone for the most part now. Some were derps as you said.

I would like to see people's Elo score at the end of the match. Would be VERY informative and not take much in the way of coding.

Showing who's a pre-made would be nice as well on your own team, as well as a way to cycle lock through friendlies to see what they have equipped. Then post pre-made info at the end of the match for all to see.

All of those ideas would help quell some of the arguments on here once someone ran analysis.

Who knows, it would at least in my case make me sit back and assess whether it was me or Elo giving me the shaft that round.

I just wish we had replay where the game saved the match, i.e. WarThunder. I've been shot down by friendlies before and rather than jump on them in game watched the replay after. A good number of those were 'accidents' and shooting from a long ways away with a 37mm cannon or I simply cross their line of fire at an angle that wasn't visible to me, and I don't look like a complete jerk for jumping all down their case.

Edited by Caleb Lee, 02 April 2013 - 11:10 AM.

[Yokaiko]

Oh who am I ******** I just bought a big pink mech.

.....total lack of will power.

[Glythe]

Hekalite, on 02 April 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:

It's almost impossible to have a constructive discussion on this subject because everyone's experience with the system will depend on their skill level and their play style. I personally find the system to be abysmal at finding a fun and fair match during peak hours, but it's not too bad in the morning. I've been dropping solo 99% of the time since my group evaporated. During prime time, it seems like the system almost always puts you on one side or the other of a stomp.

Anyone who thinks the system is "working" right now is delusional. While it isn't totally broken, it does need to be heavily tuned. Fortunately, the devs have stated they will continue to adjust the system. Unfortunately, they move at a slugs pace.

Why did your group evaporate? I bet it was because they are weighted too high by the match maker and you can't get a fair match with friends. In effect all this Elo change did was eliminate the advantage of 4 man grouping. It is harder to get pugs to listen but thankfully I get into a lot of games where the people cooperate. Since the Elo changes I've NEVER gotten such strong groups playing with a premade than 7 random strangers. That's F'd up. Bear in mind one of the people I play with would always deal about 3x his life total in damage before he went down as a medium in 8 man games. I can easily do the same in an Atlas. The bottom line is that I have to beat less skilled enemies when I play alone so I win more. This is because the group modifier to weight is absurd.

No weight matching is worst MM yet. I guarantee I'll slay any team you put forth on assault with 6 assaults and 2 lights (or meds) while you have some strange setup that might not even have an assault mech and only 2 lights (or less). And of course there is the conquest setup you occasionally see where one team has 4 lights and 2-3 mediums. That team always wins unless they are stupid and try to kill the assaults like they could a few patches ago before server side rewind was implemented.

There is no way you're going to "adjust" how good I am in an Atlas to put me into an equal weight as an equally skilled medium. If we both always hit with our weapons I have more health (how much can you block with your arms) and can deal more damage (more weapons). There is no way to balance an assault mech except with another assault mech. The same goes for ECM as you cannot have 5+ ECM on one side vs none (this is why I guarantee you lose the match up I propose) .

Edited by Glythe, 02 April 2013 - 12:19 PM.

[Caleb Lee]

Glythe, on 02 April 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Why did your group evaporate? I bet it was because they are weighted too high by the match maker and you can't get a fair match with friends. In effect all this Elo change did was eliminate the advantage of 4 man grouping. It is harder to get pugs to listen but thankfully I get into a lot of games where the people cooperate. Since the Elo changes I've NEVER gotten such strong groups playing with a premade than 7 random strangers. That's F'd up. Bear in mind one of the people I play with would always deal about 3x his life total in damage before he went down as a medium in 8 man games. I can easily do the same in an Atlas. The bottom line is that I have to beat less skilled enemies when I play alone so I win more. This is because the group modifier to weight is absurd.

No weight matching is worst MM yet. I guarantee I'll slay any team you put forth on assault with 6 assaults and 2 lights (or meds) while you have some strange setup that might not even have an assault mech and only 2 lights (or less). And of course there is the conquest setup you occasionally see where one team has 4 lights and 2-3 mediums. That team always wins unless they are stupid and try to kill the assaults like they could a few patches ago before server side rewind was implemented.

There is no way you're going to "adjust" how good I am in an Atlas to put me into an equal weight as an equally skilled medium. If we both always hit with our weapons I have more health (how much can you block with your arms) and can deal more damage (more weapons). There is no way to balance an assault mech except with another assault mech. The same goes for ECM as you cannot have 5+ ECM on one side vs none (this is why I guarantee you lose the match up I propose) .

I agree, the modifier for groups is absurd. It's been mostly wins tonight and with only a few good fights.

The rest have been rolls one way or another and odd bugs.

What's even more foolish is when groups like Perpetually Angry Uber League pull worse crap than beginners and do nothing but insult your attempts then standby and let you lose. Then when you call them on it have their dev friends for the TS server threaten you.

[MischiefSC]

Yokaiko, on 02 April 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Last 15 games, I've won 4.

If that is working as intended....there is a serious issue.

How about the last 150?

You'll have swings in any 20 game match. I get batches of a dozen losses in a row sometimes. It's frustrating. Come back to it later. My win/loss is still over 1.0 though.

As has been stated by the devs teams are built around a target Elo. What that means is that if the 'target' Elo is, say, 1500 it'll put 16 people with as close to 1500 Elo with the most closely balanced mech weights that it can. If there's a premade team with 2 people, one with an Elo of 2000 and one with an Elo of 1000 they might get pulled because they are an average of 1500. That is the only time you'll see averages.

You are going to drop in games full of people with the same Elo as you.