1089 replies to this topic

[Skunk Wolf]

Wow, so the one equip-able piece of gear that makes all the other super expensive modules cry in shame at it's awesomeness is going to remain pretty much the same because they feel that it's where it should be.

...

Based on what data, assumptions and game-play experience?

I'm asking to see your homework.

Prove that giving everybody on your team within a radius complete radar stealth without giving away your position isn't something desired and pursued by every military for the last seventy years and trillions of dollars were invested in it.

All for a reasonable mech and a device that costs less than a PPC.

This confounds all logic.

[AlexEss]

Rain... Just wait until they lock the ECM in to one of your torsos instead... Now that will be fun. Actually i think most of them will have them locked in to L or R torso... Why do i think that. Because it is easy and quick.

Well any way that is all the scrying i care to do today... Does not matter if i am right or wrong... It would still be funny if they did it. (personally i'd love to have it in the arm of an atlas.. there is nothing easier in the world to shoot off then a arm... But i fear they will be locked in to the side torso slot... will be a pita to dig them out)

Edited by AlexEss, 03 April 2013 - 03:21 PM.

[Orbit Rain]

...the whole "advanced radar" thing doesn't jive when nobody uses LRM's anymore (like right now)

[Vassago Rain]

'

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 03:18 PM, said:

TT isn't really helpful for this discussion. Half the things ECM does in TT don't even make sense in the context of a Mechwarrior game.

But muh canon lore fluff CBT! That most of them never played.

AlexEss, on 03 April 2013 - 03:20 PM, said:

Rain... Just wait until they lock the ECM in to one of your torsos instead... Now that will be fun. Actually i think most of them will have them locked in to L or R torso... Why do i think that. Because it is easy and quick.

Well any way that is all the scrying i care to do today... Does not matter if i am right or wrong... It would still be funny if they did it. (personally i'd love to have it in the arm of an atlas.. there is nothing easier in the world to shoot off then a arm... But i fear they will be locked in to the side torso slot... will be a pita to dig them out)

Always expect the worst, and you won't be disappointed. They'll be in the legs and other weird places, because they know that's where you put critical gear like ammo.

This after half a year of having it work another way,

[Karyudo ds]

So the offset the super powered effect and low weight making in nearly mandatory on mechs able to take it it will now have to be installed to a specific spot. Should solve everything.

I'm not really convinced that will make a huge difference but it just seems like it should be less effective, not more fragile.

While BAP practically sits on a shelf being "uncool".

[Jungle Rhino]

You know vas you could always not take ecm in your DDC seeing as it sucks so hard and is going to fill up your leg bins...

[Asakara]

Bazukyuu, on 03 April 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

I want you to limit the number of ecm having a team by 2.
Rule below please.

• if Red team have 1 ecm, Blue team must have 0 or 1 ecm
  
• if Red team have 2 ecms, Blue team must have 1 or 2 ecms
  
• each team can't have 3 or more ecms

So if I am in a 4 man and all of us want to play D-DCs we can't?

I can see it now:
"Sorry Jim but you can not play your favorite mech like the rest of us as we already have 3 D-DCs..I know you earned the C-Bills and don't have any other mechs. Anyways just play a trial mech or drop from the group." LOL.

[Orzorn]

The worst issue with ECM has so far been Streaks, due to how it makes them very exclusive.

PPCs helped with that some (you see mechs taking PPCs and SSRMs. Works very well on the Trebuchet, for instance).

Honestly, though, removing ECM's ability to block allies from seeing it each other would be huge. ECM in pubs is very powerful because of that, as pubs don't communicate (or rather, can't, because you can't exactly type and move in a firefight. No built in VOIP makes pubs sad pandas).

As long as Vassago can still intercept, he'll be happy.

[Roadbeer]

I honestly don't see what the big deal is about it, but that's from my point of view. I'm almost always dropping in a group, whether it be 4 man or 8 man. Many times in the smaller groups, we don't even discuss bringing ECM because it's a non-factor to us.

Radar flicks
"We got ECM in the backfield"
"You got it?"
"Yeah"

And that's the last I worry about ECM unless I hear "He got me" then it becomes my problem. Which doesn't happen often.

So I honestly don't get what the BFD is about it.

Oh, and before anyone asks, my KDR and W/L are just fine, thanks.

[warp103]

Thontor, on 03 April 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Disagree, I don't think the CDA-3M or AS7-D-DC are the best variants. The biggest reason the 3L is the best Raven is the speed.

sorry but my D v DDC score says different . 1.01 kdr vs 2.98 kdr

as for ecm hmm my scores are all in the close to 3 kdr with ecm.I got **** after the cat nerf and got a 3l and it has 3x more kills to death versus all my non ecm mechs.

To paul even a gimped ecm {CDA-3M} is better the any non ecm mech. I havee talked to garth and I was under the thinking that the dev got it and more counters were coming .Well I have been suckered and I will never trust the dev team again. So to all get your best Ecm you may have some fun it not sorry sucker{my sons Ecm Raven} or my Craven will murder you.

Edited by warp103, 03 April 2013 - 03:30 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

My question, what is ECM? What is it's role?
Within MWO it was touted as a part of Information Warfare. Based on its name one would think it would have something to do with countering things within IW. Instead we got one device that solely represents IW. The battle is decided on whomever can rid this advantageous device from the other team. So the fix was to remove one of it's abilities that was in line with its purpose? I may disagree overall with this guy's point, but even we both can agree on the following:

saq, on 03 April 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Removing the ability for you to use ECM and hide an enemies position from their teammates is very counter-intuitive and removes one of the main points of ECM: information-warfare, one of the oft touted cornerstones of MWO game design. To throw that out would be (yet another) way of saying "Sorry players who are actually paying for and playing this game, we want to dumb it down so people who aren't playing might want to play!". This logic is folly as gamers don't want dumbed down games and have always desired games to be more complex and in-depth.

Why remove an ability of something it's supposed to be doing? If you're going to change it, remove the missile countering aspect. Instead, allow AMS to do its intended job. Stop having ECM cut people's radar down by 75% when BAP is supposed give the radar advantage. BAP can only boost radar by 25%, yet ECM can completely negate that bonus as well. Remove the stealth aspect of ECM. Instead let Stealth Armor and Null signature do their jobs when they come out. It's simple, stop ECM from doing the job of other technologies:

• Stop blocking missiles - Let AMS do it (if necessary buff AMS)
  
• Stop giving radar advantage - Let BAP do it (if necessary boost BAP's range)
  
• Stop producing stealth - Let stealth armor and null sig do it

Yes you've added counters for ECM. However just as the implementation of ECM, they too are a mistake:

• Drop TAG's range back down so it is again a scout's tool and not a self spotting tool for LRM boats
  
• Make PPC EMP effect all electronics, not ECM only.

This is just a mess, that will make further additions to the game problematic. What's going to happen once stealth armor or null shield is added? Is the plan not to add these technologies? What about Angel ECM? At this rate we have to have it throw the missiles back at the shooter to compete with the current ECM. I guess it wont make an appearance either. I guess we also have to accept the fact we will never get a hero mech with ECM. Why? Because, right or wrong, it will be marked as P2W. /end rant.

Thank you, Paul, for delivering your long awaited post. It was not the answer I was looking for. I still enjoy MWO, however that level of enjoyment has never been as high prior to the release of ECM. I hope that something in the future changes that.

[Vassago Rain]

Jungle Rhino, on 03 April 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

You know vas you could always not take ecm in your DDC seeing as it sucks so hard and is going to fill up your leg bins...

I'm gonna switch to poptarter if they go ruin my mechs after telling us this is how it's gonna work for half a year. You people don't get it.

I shouldn't be surprised, but I am.

It's been like half a year. We have specific roles for WARBOSS, and hunter-kill lights. My job is to bring ECM and support gear proper, and to assassinate the enemy commander. It's what I do.

PGI couldn't implement role warfare, but the community did on its own. Half a year of this, and now that's gonna go away, or get changed, because...? Because golds are bad, and can't switch to counter?

Oh, okay. Sounds like a great idea.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 03 April 2013 - 03:33 PM.

[Jman5]

Quote

ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play.

I agree with this sentiment. Many players already have enough trouble as is with map awareness. ECM shouldn't be making it harder than it already is.

[General Taskeen]

Well I'll probably be done with the game soon, I guess. Who wants my stuff? I don't got much stuff, just a bunch of record sheet mechs. I haven't even touched my premium time.

Adapting hasn't even been a problem for me, I can hit an ECM Mech just fine. The main problem is that I'm a competitive player that wants real balance for this game and I can see the glaring problem with it. ECM has been rife with abuse, its balance implementation and counters have been poorly thought out. What people don't realize is, is that this likely means that Streaks and the general lock-on missiles will stay exactly as they are. That is my prediction.

I have cited many times how much more ECM is balanced in other Mech titles, because they got it right. In fact, my idea was well received in the original feedback thread. You don't implement powerful pieces of gear in a F2P game, that's doing it wrong.

ECM, Streaks, MG's, Flamers, LB-X, SHS, DHS, Trial Mechs (Trail of Tears), Roll The Dice Jams™. I'm really tired of this s*it.

Edited by General Taskeen, 03 April 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[BlackBeltJones]

Rofl, on 03 April 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

I'll probably get a warning on the forums for this, but are you some kind of super *****? Did you eat a **** ton of stupid sauce as a child? Maybe dropped on your head?

I know you want ECM to be amazing, as a DDC pilot. But, for 1 second, pretend you didn't have a DDC. Pretend you have 0 mechs with ECM. Would it still be OK? I suggest you try forming an 8 man and NOT taking ECM once.

It will not wipe out everyones mech collections. I have 1 mech that uses ECM, a raven 3L, and even if there was a hardpoint lock (which I agree is dumb), it would not ruin that mech, no matter where it was. I can build a good mech around silly hardpoint layouts. There's more pressing mech customization to worry about than this.

Step back and examine it from the outside. The whole reason I got a 3L was to see if it was as crazy OP as it sounds. It is. Even with the changes to the 3L, it still is. this is coming from running mostly non 8 man teams, mind you, where the majority of the game is played. In 8 mans, it's not AS big of a deal, but still important.

ECM does too many things for its size (Guardian, Angel, NSS, denies things it shouldn't). There is no true counter to it but itself; it's still an arms race.

THANK YOU for this. VR is loco.

[Gwaihir]

Thontor, on 03 April 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

That's funny. My KDR in my RS is a lot higher than in my DDC. YMMV

Well, the RS is better than the DDC, so.

[The Cheese]

I think that HSR for projectiles needs to be implemented before this feedback session happens if you want us to seriously accept PPCs as a reliable counter for ECM.

[hammerreborn]

The Cheese, on 03 April 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

I think that HSR for projectiles needs to be implemented before this feedback session happens if you want us to seriously accept PPCs as a reliable counter for ECM.

You mean the one coming out this month? And if you can't hit a 3L at this point...

Edited by hammerreborn, 03 April 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[Xerionox]

Why is an advanced module necessary to counter a common piece of equipment you see nearly every game? That is not balaced. It helps as it should, but not an effective counter. It shouldn't be a requirement. It is advanced and expensive equipment given to warriors who prove themselves.

How does a weapon that only gives a few seconds to get a lock which only gives a window for one volley of missles an effective counter? I find many times after a PPC hit I can't lock on, as it still seems ECM is countering my ability to lock on. It takes too long to lock and fire missles unless you have 2+ ppcs. The same goes for TAG. Tag should allow me to target an ecm mech as effective as a normal mech. LRM users are required to have ppcs on their team, or are completely screwed by 1 mech, with 1.5 tons of equipment. Thats broken. No other piece of equipment is a hard counter to nearly an entire weapon group.

A 20m window of oppertunity to lock on is useless on the battlefield for LRMs, and Streaks. It needs to be bigger by default. No skill will allow you to effectively engage in that small window.

ECM just does too much for it's tonnage. AMS is useless for mechs that can equip it, cost the same tonnage but is less effective at missle defence than ecm. ECM should not be a hard counter to missles. You should be able to target ecm covered mechs, but locking on should take twice as long. It could also limit the range at which you can lock on. Advanced sensors or BAP should negate this.

BAP weighs the same amount but does no where near as much benefits. Yes anyone can equip it true. But only certain builds benefit from it. It's a niche item. The ECM should always be taken when ever possible, due to it's list of benefits.

ECM is the most effective counter to ECM. Who ever has the most ecm mechs on their team have the advantage. Counter ECM should counter all ECM in the area.

ECM current balance is broken and is far more obvious for LRM and streak users with no ECM on their team. It breaks some matches by itself. I'm a brawler by nature, so ECM is less of a problem for me most times. But it really puts me off using my LRM carriers knowing that a bad team match up can cause us to get instantly stomp to the ground because we just didn't have the right equipment selected. I.E no ecm, few ppcs. It's probably the reason you see people simply stuffing SRMs into chassis more suitable for LRMs.

I do like the hardpoint idea for the ECM. Learn where the ECM is shoot it. Good counter for the DDC and future heavy ECM carriers. Allies should be able to see there Teammate location on radar when they're teamate is covered in ECM. but I did like that ECM scrambled the enemies map when in range.

ECM is just too powerful. It should be one tool in an arsenal for stealth play. Other equipment released further down the timeline will have ECM effects, like Stealth Armour. Having multiple equipment to give you ECM's benefits makes sense, but it shouldn't all be in one package.

I hope more ideas are looked at, like the redoing of consumables after the feedback. Which was quick, and responsive to many concerns. Keep up the good work.

[Tekadept]

I was nearly going to make a comment. Then I realised how futile that would be..