1089 replies to this topic

[TipsyMcSwaggart]

Another tsunami of response to this topic shows how deeply the community feels about this.

some of the following is edited for space I couldn't quote directly for some reason so Italics are the original my responses in non- italics.


The State of Guardian ECM:

. . .I couldn't comment on the state of ECM in the game until I had 2 additional counter measures implemented into the game.

Even if the countermeasures implemented are benign and have been shown to have a negligible effect on Guardian ECM ?

This was to avoid frustration in the community without having all features in place before I discussed the situation.

From the volume and tone of many responses, it does not appear this goal was accomplished.

Guardian ECM... is very close to where we want it to be.

This statement needs to be reconsidered for the same reasons as the last point. Although saying it is close does suggest you are willing to tweak in the future. which is quite promising.

ECM brought a whole new level of strategy and skill to the battlefield and is something that we've been striving to achieve instead of flat plane, long range combat.

True, it does prevent stand off arty-type lrm bombing and necessitates closing to visual range.

. . .as of February 15th, the new counters allow for multiple attack vectors against the system.

I Disagree. I do not understand how a continuously on passive all round area effect system, who shares its effects with up to 7 other mechs, (ECM) can be effectively countered by an active, direct line of sight, must hit to have effect, limitied time only and affects only one target systems. One of which generates heat and has ballistic trajectory properties.

I fail to see how this provides multiple attack vectors. LOS must be established, that is the only vector of attack. Even with NARC, TAG, and PPCs, you need to maintain LOS, you must hit the target, and manage heat generation. 3 things ECM mechs do not need to do.


With the increase of projectile speeds and reduction in hit-detection issues, you will notice that a lot more ballistic/laser shots are on target. There are even more and bigger improvements coming down the pipe very soon in terms of hit-detection.

We Thank you for this fix

These aspects . . . put ECM VERY close to where we want it to be; a very frightful piece of equipment that is powerful and versitile while at the same time has its weaknesses (3 health and soon to be hardpoint limited, see below).

As it stands now, ecm is the most powerful item in the mechbay. Nothing comes close to how it can single handedly change the outcome of a battle. It also costs considerably less than any of the modules. not to mention, the need to farm up and unlock the module slots, and buy them.

It remains to be seen if the weaknesses will balance out its benefits.

As mentioned above, the ECM really only affects 2 weapon systems.

It also effects the sensors of every enemy mech on the battlefield preventing lock on with any weapon system, missiles or not.

. . .the benefits that it brought to the table would help stagger the ranges in which combat takes place.

This is true, but you cannot deny the blowback that has occurred. A large group in the community disagree with many of the points that have been made in this response.

Putting a PPC shot on an ECM equipped Mech makes them very vulnerable for 4 seconds... but not only that, you have also put a lot of damage into that Mech.

4 seconds is not a lot of time to put a lot of damage into any mech, therefore i dispute your assertion they are very vulnerable.

The “Advanced Sensor Range” module allows you to get a lock on an ECM Mech at a longer distance

I disagree. If both mechs are moving even @ 60% speed, the extended range can be closed before ECM takes effect. This point is true in select situations only, not in all matches and engagements.

That said, there are two things suggested by the community that struck a chord and we will be looking into implementing soon:
ECM should have a dedicated hardpoint (tonnage/space does not change). That way ECM will always be in a known location on a Mech and can be directly targeted by attackers.
ECM should not cut out friendly signatures on the battlefield. Friendly Mechs should always be identifiable and not obscure team play.

Thank you for taking our feedback into consideration while moving forward. I hope you will continue to do so with all further patches.

Thanks for your time.

Edited by TipsyMcSwaggart, 03 April 2013 - 06:02 PM.

[StalaggtIKE]

Mawai, on 03 April 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

Every mech that uses ECM (except the Atlas) runs an XL engine. Coring any torso segment will shut down the ECM about as fast as trying to target the module ... so I don't think this change will have a significant impact except possibly against an Atlas D-DC

Which oddly is the mech I'm least afraid of. I'm more afraid of that flock of RVN-3L or that 2x20AC Jagger that can pop out of nowhere even though my buddy was looking right at him because he was under a magic bubble.

[Marcus Tanner]

I certainly hope we won't be in a situation where the devs honestly tell us that in order to beat ECM we just have to shoot the center torso. I don't even...

[Jonathan Paine]

I am surprised that the devs still dont see that ECM+STREAKS or (pre-nerf) LRMS = OP

Even if they ignore all the very well thought out suggestions by the community (Angel vs Guardian ECM for instance), removing the ability to use use weapons that require a lock on would go a long way. As for the PPC cure, mostly it made teams add one more ECM capable mech to the loadout. Easy to get the DDC, harder to get the commando hiding behind it.

Whatever.

[StalaggtIKE]

Mawai, on 03 April 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

The Raven 3L is the best light mech presently due to ECM. Since ECM Is not changing ... would it be possible to change the 3L? Perhaps by reducing its top speed to 125kph or so (with speed tweak factored in)?

The Raven chassis have already had their run of quirks implemented. I doubt they intend to change them further.

[StalaggtIKE]

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

And even in a DDC, the loss of ECM for 4 seconds is less relevant than the fact that somebody is repeatedly shooting you with PPCs.

Exactly. Even still, I'm not standing around in the open in my D-DC. The few times I do get hit by a PPC I was heading to cover anyway. Fact is it doesn't effect me. Four seconds doesn't even give the person enough time to see what I'm packing. Do I have a Guass rifle or an AC20? No worries, you'll find out after I've hit you.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 April 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[ExAstris]

I just deleted my shortcut to this website, my client, and all associated material. I haven't logged in for a month, so this is just the final nail in the coffin.

@PGI: Get over yourselves. Your version of the game isn't the one we want to play.

[hammerreborn]

ExAstris, on 03 April 2013 - 06:03 PM, said:

I just deleted my shortcut to this website, my client, and all associated material. I haven't logged in for a month, so this is just the final nail in the coffin.

@PGI: Get over yourselves. Your version of the game isn't the one we want to play.

Speak for yourself. And BYE!

[Mawai]

Well ... I have to say that I disagree with the developers on this one.

-Most matches are still won by the teams with the most ECM. The matchmaker does not seem to take ECM into account when forming matches ... could the matchmaker be changed to take this into account?

-Fast ECM mechs are more useful in any Conquest mode game - since they provide cover to the team and can cap without being targeted at long range (or even noticed until actually capping)

-Competitive play will continue to require ECM equipped mechs which limits the variety to 4 variants out of all the mechs available ... can anyone say boring?

-Folks playing PUG will likely feel more compelled to play ECM mechs since they are simply more effective and valuable to the team. Anything that makes the game more boring (limiting effective mech choices in this case) is likely to reduce revenues.


The announcement claims:

" With state rewind going into the game, it is VERY possible to take down any high-speed Mech as long as you have the aim because where you aim is going to be where you hit. ECM or not, high-speed Mechs are in for a world of hurt that they are currently not used to."

LOL ... so the plan is to nerf light mechs into unusability due to a "world of hurt that they are not currently used to" ... THIS is the fix to ECM? It may reduce the kamikaze light ECM pilots but honestly they have rarely been the problem.

I am looking forward to improved hit box detection against fast mechs ... this is the way the game should be ... you should not have a lag-shield ... on the other hand, if this change then makes light mechs unusable then additional balances may need to be put into place ... only time will tell. However, this is NOT a fix to ECM .. this is simply an expected fix to game play and won't affect the balance of light mechs within the class ... in any way. The Raven-3L will remain the most powerful and effective light mech available ... able to eliminate any other light mech in a 1:1 fight with equally skilled pilots.

Edited by Mawai, 03 April 2013 - 06:12 PM.

[MuadXDib]

Past, on 03 April 2013 - 05:41 PM, said:

When do we find out where the hardpoints will be? I only have 1 ecm mech the Atlas DDC with the ECM in the centre torso if i have to move it from there due to the build having no free critical slots left it would likely break the build by making me place caseless ammo in stupid spots or possibly make my dual lbx-10's no longer fit.

really not sure if serious here

[DocBach]

I'm almost speechless but I can't say I'm surprised.

ECM might be where you want it to be, but if you look at the player base it's nowhere near what we as paying customers want!

...unless you are Hammerreborn. You've made one dude happy and thousands more disappointed.

Right now with splash damage removed, missiles are almost perfectly balanced. ECM completely blocking them still makes them worthless, and several chassis have absolutely no defense against it (missile boats who can't bring TAG). The electronics ECM is suppose to block are still useless, I've never heard of someone taking ECM to block out that dastardly Beagle Active Probe.

The complete radar stealth is even more potent with the reduction of Thermals (which was a great job, the new vision modes are great). Make it so if you are in my line of sight I can target you. Don't let me identify my enemy, but let me track him and at least get a target designation. Make him have to work for complete stealth by using cover and concealment; ECM is not Stealth, there is Stealth in Battletech and I say again ECM is not it.

TL:DR

Get rid of ECM's complete defeat of radar locks. Let it hide information, not completely deny it!

Edited by DocBach, 03 April 2013 - 06:10 PM.

[Kreisel]

hammerreborn, on 03 April 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

The point is to hit the mech more than once with ppcs....Do people just stop firing them after hitting?

Beside heat management concerns and the fact they are shooting back at you, this is only really helpful against targets like the D-DC. Good luck hitting a Raven, Commando, Spider or Cicada with more than a PPC blast every 3 seconds or so. Besides... most people Alpha their PPC shots, because it puts more damage on a single location at once, and lets you get back behind cover. The Time doesn't stack, it resets. Even two hits maybe only buys you 6 seconds.

Short answer YES, people do OFTEN stop firing after 1 shot or rather they space those shots out enough that ECM comes back on between them.

[StalaggtIKE]

Mawai, on 03 April 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

The announcement claims:

" With state rewind going into the game, it is VERY possible to take down any high-speed Mech as long as you have the aim because where you aim is going to be where you hit. ECM or not, high-speed Mechs are in for a world of hurt that they are currently not used to."

LOL ... so the plan is to nerf light mechs into unusability due to a "world of hurt that they are not currently used to" ... THIS is the fix to ECM? It may reduce the kamikaze ***** light ECM pilots but honestly they have rarely been the problem.

I am looking forward to improved hit box detection against fast mechs ... this is the way the game should be ... you should not have a lag-shield ... on the other hand, if this change then makes light mechs unusable then additional balances may need to be put into place ... only time will tell. However, this is NOT a fix to ECM .. this is simply an expected fix to game play and won't affect the balance of light mechs within the class ... in any way. The Raven-3L will remain the most powerful and effective light mech available ... able to eliminate any other light mech in a 1:1 fight with equally skilled pilots.

Yes. As you said lag shield is something that should have been addressed regardless of ECM. Silly how it get's lumped in as a "fix." I can't wait for knockdowns to be brought back.

Edit: Now I remember why the only light I pilot is a RVN-3L. And why I would never buy another light.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 03 April 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[Jakob Knight]

It's disappointing that, despite the countless feedback posts and suggestions, it seems the devs still don't understand the largest problem with ECM.

That is, that it renders LRMs all but useless for indirect fire, just about the main use for the weapon and about the only reason anyone mounts them instead of SRMs. LRMs have a ton of disadvantages without ECM on the field to counter their ability to hit far away and indirectly, and adding ECM only removed the advantages of the system without altering the disadvantages. The supposed 'counters' do little to change this, as they are all direct-fire options, and thus useless to a mech trying to support its team by indirect means.

Also, the idea that a PPC does massive damage is rather odd, considering it does splash damage most of the time, and hits lighter than most ballistic weapons overall. Also, as the PPC has to hit the ECM -generating- unit, which can't be identified unless in so close that the PPC might as well not be a long-ranged weapon, it does nothing to counter ECM -protected- mechs, limiting it's use greatly in this role.

That they say ECM is very close to where they want it to be sinks my hopes this was an oversight to almost nothing. It seems this was, indeed, their plan when they introduced ECM, and they will never accept any option that restores LRMs to indirect support weapons. A pity, as it just makes the battlefield a more one-dimensional operations environment, where combat is exclusively the purview of brawlers and direct fire units.

[Reyals Frontrunner]

Really looking forward to seeing friendlies. That was the biggest problem I had with ECM. Especially when 1 team is outnumbered with 6 ECM mechs.... and friendlies would over extend and not know where there help is.

[Fedifensor]

Rule #1 - The counter for a system should not be THE SAME SYSTEM.

Corellary #1 - A good counter for a system is its opposite (*cough* Beagle Active Probe *cough*)

Rule #2 - If a system is a "must-have", to the point where people will take otherwise inferior mechs to get it, then it's unbalanced.

Corellary #2 - Mechs without that system as an option become the inferior mechs.

Rule #3 - The primary counter for a system should not be the weapon that is the hardest to hit with against the majority of mechs that carry that system.

Corellary #3 - It is good to have multiple possible counters to a system...but a counter that only works in a limited fashion for a small window of time isn't a real counter.

Rule #4 - Any mech that can only mount a type of weapon that is neutralized by a single system is not a practical choice (*cough* Catapult A1 *cough*).

Corellary #4 - When one system dominates the battlefield, players will turn to the weapons most likely to be useful against the mechs that carry it (*cough* Lasers *cough*)


This problem could be seen coming from a mile away, and it's still not being addressed. I left after it first became apparent, came back for Double XP weekend, and realized it's just as bad as before. See you in a few months - maybe you've have come to your senses by then.

[Iron Hyena]

BlueSanta, on 03 April 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

Are you kidding? All those replies you got and that's all? Still a piece of equipment that I will always equip to a mech that can carry it.

ECM is not supposed to affect missile locks.
ECM is not supposed to affect TAG.
ECM shouldn't stack.
ECM shouldn't prevent Streaks from being dumb-fired.
That 20m or whatever window you can target an ECM mech is useless in the battlefield.

However, at least you decided on one change that always should have been in place--ECM does not cut you off from friendlies.

You can do better than this after FIVE MONTHS.

Also, I like the idea of letting every mech equip it for one day, one week, two weeks, and see what happens to your metrics. Bet you would poop yourselves.

***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****.

Then when they actually do a change that everyone asked for?

You whine that its not good enough.

Its just never enough for you is it?

[Veylis]

Quit playing a few months ago disgusted with ECM. Decided to check the form every 30 days or so for the ECM nerf. Guess this game is on the final trash bin for me. These changes as usual do nothign to address the game ruining experience of ECM. What a shame.

PPC counters ECM....do you even hear yourself saying this?

[DocBach]

Veylis, on 03 April 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Quit playing a few months ago disgusted with ECM. Decided to check the form every 30 days or so for the ECM nerf. Guess this game is on the final trash bin for me. These changes as usual do nothign to address the game ruining experience of ECM. What a shame.

PPC counters ECM....do you even hear yourself saying this?

Wait, you mean a weapon system that weighs almost four times as much as a passive system, requires accuracy to use, and generates some of the highest heat in the game isn't a proper counter for a system that just needs to be installed to completely cripple radar, communications, and missile weapons?

[Sybreed]

JUST REMEMBERED SOMETHING

Did the devs forget about the 8-man team they faced that consisted only of 3Ls and D-DCs? I think they wanted to prove a point...