1089 replies to this topic

[New Breed]

Let every mech equip it

[TyGeR STD]

Their have been a few good replys to this thread, I hate that it will appear to fall on deaf ears. My 2 complain about ECM is 1) the person useing ECM has the ability to use weapon systems that can not be used on them, namely SSRMs. I just level a Jenner F and Jenner K so I can master out my founders Jenner, doing this over the past 2 weeks I found myself fighting a number of raven 3Ls. The only time I felt that I had a chance against a 3L pilot was in my Jenner F with 6 Med lasers. And that would only be on a cold map. A Raven 3L with ECM would simply streak me to death. If I am useing my Jenner D or K, with Streaks then they are in this fight a useless weapon. If ECM is going to remove my ability to lock onto a mech with a weapon, it should remove their ability to lock onto me.

2) the fact that most every game has a rock, papper, scissors, concept, X counters Y, Y counters Z, and Z counters X, but with ECM, the only counter is another ECM. so now its a rock countering another rock. As ECM has a counter and disrupt mode, I think BAP should have the same type of system that will counter ECM.

Also I think that the fact that ECM has a bubble effect is a bit much, maybe factor in that ECM only works on the mech it is equiped unless that mech has a Command Console, then give it the bubble.

BUT, I think players will not complain AS MUCH, about ECM once knock downs are put back into the game. Then the Raven 3L will not be able to run into the middle of a hugh brawl and run around streaking down targets. If he does he will run the risk of getting knocked down, and promptly destoryed.

[Silentium]

I would like to see some numbers really. Maybe there should be a tourney or something, where your scores are related to having/not having ecm. Hell, we could even throw in group/solo scores on top of that.

lets get some data to argue over, it will be more fun than arguing over anecdotes and assurances. I am really interested in how the numbers shake out in the light circuit.

[Shadowsword8]

A long winded post that doesn't even explain why they gave ECM negligible requirements, despite the fact that it was the most argued thing about ECM.

I just lost all faith in PGI. If they can't admit that something in a "must-have" state is bad for the game, MWO is behond saving.

Enjoy the 150+€ I threw at you, PGI, because there will be no more of it from my part.

[Mao of DC]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 03 April 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

I like how he brought up BAP in a positive light. When it's really a total waste of tonnage, and chances are if you run one not only are YOU bad, but you internet robot is bad too

What?!? BAP is the awesome! I once thought like you, but I took the AMS off my Raven 3L and replaced it with BAP, you know for giggles. Well in that first match I was making this mech's life hell and he could hit me for crap. Then he shuts down and wouldn't you know it my Streaks were still locked on. All because of BAP Since then my Raven's damage output has increased quite a bit. The extra sensor range stacked with the advanced sensor module is a nice plus also.

[kuangmk11]

Make it so you can't fit an XL and ECM at the same time.

[Dexter Herbivore]

Royalewithcheese, on 03 April 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:

On the subject of the 3-L, Garth has been dropping hints that that particular variant may be nerfed.

...and THAT ladies and gentlemen, is the real solution to ECM. You can take it, but the variants that take it get gimped on the equipment they can carry. You lose firepower but gain a defensive bonus.

The assumption that most people seem to be making in this is that ECM means that you can't defeat a mech 1 vs 1 when in reality the dev team is likely balancing more around the 12 vs 12 or 8 vs 8 mechanic. You see an ECM, he'd better run because he SHOULD be getting focussed to take him out. You get caught in a duel with an ECM variant, it's your fault for getting out of range of your support.

[Ghogiel]

Noth, on 03 April 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

The fact that any mech that can mount it does without any hesitation or thought of replacing it with something else. If it was available to all mechs, pretty much every single mech in the game would run them. There would of course be outliers that wouldn't, but still the vast majority would.

working as intended.

[DocBach]

Mao of DC, on 03 April 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

What?!? BAP is the awesome! I once thought like you, but I took the AMS off my Raven 3L and replaced it with BAP, you know for giggles. Well in that first match I was making this mech's life hell and he could hit me for crap. Then he shuts down and wouldn't you know it my Streaks were still locked on. All because of BAP Since then my Raven's damage output has increased quite a bit. The extra sensor range stacked with the advanced sensor module is a nice plus also.

Part of the reason ECM is so overpowered is the fact that Beagle currently does very little beyond what you described. Information warfare is all denial of information, with very little additional tools to gain more information than what standard sensors can acquire. Beagle is suppose to be able to give a detailed readout of an enemy. Imagine being able to target the bad guy, then hit a key and see a readout that shows he only put 12 points of armor in his Atlas's legs and decided they'd be a great place to put all of his AC ammo? It's also suppose to allow us to detect non-hidden (read: not shutdown) units inside of a 120 meter bubble, regardless of line of sight. It's an active radar that can probe targets for information, yet all of its expanded uses have not been included in MWO, or given to modules instead.

ECM on the other hand has had all of its uses retained, as well as a third use that in the board game was its own function rolled all into one. Missile lock negation (not total defeat as we currently have) is suppose to be possible with a third ECM mode called Ghost Target mode, in which missiles get a +1 penalty to hit an enemy target in the board game. The fluff reason is the targeting computer has to cycle through false sensor readings flooding the sensors, which could be implemented in the real-time game by a bunch of fake targets the pilot has to cycle through to find what he wants to actually shoot at, as well as an increased lock on time for missiles, rather than a complete and total lockout. Ghost target mode was countered by Beagle Active Probe, which is great balance. Both are 1.5 ton passive systems, but both can counter each other's effects in different modes. You don't need to hit a Beagle Active Probe 'Mech with a PPC to negate it, so why is that our counter for ECM?

Lastly, the information denied by ECM is still too much. It should have little effect on standard sensors if in the line of sight of a spotting 'Mech. Shroud information like the Mech type and damage readout and what its load out is, and make it block a buffed Beagle's ability to get its readout, but don't deny target locks and spotting completely, especially with how thermals now function.

Ghogiel, on 03 April 2013 - 09:36 PM, said:

working as intended.

Sure, if the designers of this game intended ECM to be the entire fulcrum in which their game and all tactics in it are balanced around.

[Eric Generic]

How's about we make ECM weigh 7 tons and limit it to spiders and cicadas? (excluding the X-5)

Maybe just make it fry everybody's electronics instead of only hostiles?

[Dr Killinger]

It's been said before, but ECM is 2 slots, 1.5 tons, takes ZERO skill or effort to use, and yet makes you invisible to radar and immune to guided missiles.

The counters? PPCs, which are 7 tons, and can take a very carefully placed shot to hit if the ECM carrier is a light.

TAG? You need to basically keep your crosshairs trained on the fool. Easier said that done, and opens you up to massive incoming fire.

The best counter? Take your own ECM. Skill and effort required? Absolutely zero.

This is why ECM is a must in competitive teams. It does way too much for it's size, and is out of balance with it's counters. This is why we're seeing ECM-compatible variants to the exclusion of almost all others of the same chassis, and it's why missiles are so difficult to balance.

If there were 4 heroes in DOTA that make you immune them and all nearby friendlies immune to all ranged auto-attacks and made them not show up on the minimap, do you think any competitive team would not consist almost entirely of them?

It's just a broken piece of equipment in my opinion. Yes, you can play around it, but as a piece of game balance, it's really, really not very good at all, and requires serious attention.

My earlier reply in this thread was nonsense, I've decided. If I could redesign ECM from the ground up, I'd fashion it as a means for scouts to carry out scouting runs:
1) slows missile locks for user and enemies targetting him or nearby allies (not block it entirely)
2) prevents targeting the ECM user (not his teammates), but still allows missile lock
3) stops Betty announcing when the ECM user targets enemies (Warning: Targeted)

Then add the ability for BAP-equipped mechs to be able to target nearby ECM users and reducing lock-on time (although not to sans-ECM levels).

BAP will also improve lock-on time for the ECM user himself. Make him pay for using those Streaks!

Edited by Dr Killinger, 03 April 2013 - 09:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

Why does ECM's cover range not require LOS? Everything else in the game requires this, but not ECM?

Why does ECM have not any actual negative? BAP has no negative, but it provides no overall value that could be "replaced" via most of the modules which costs no tonnage (of course, it takes up a module slot, but those things are almost a non-issue in something like the 3L or D-DC).

Why does 2 ECM work better than 1 ECM? Soft counters like the PPC cannot hit all the ECM targets AT THE SAME TIME.

Why does ECM negate enemy streaks, but not its own? It doesn't even matter what the mech is on the other side that has streaks.. it's already ahead of the game.

Why does Advance Sensors and/or BAP increase the range oh so slightly so people can streak between 180 and 270m? You guys do realize light mechs tend to move a lot, and usually come at you or away from you to stop that from happening...

If the only solution to ECM is "low signal" when the ECM mech is within your range, is that the only cue we should be getting? Usually by then, it's too late to do anything....

It doesn't seem to matter what logic is used to explain ECM's power outside of being more powerful than the ECM mech and/or BE the ECM mech. Sometimes the logic fails miserably.

[Ghogiel]

DocBach, on 03 April 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

Sure, if the designers of this game intended ECM to be the entire fulcrum in which their game and all tactics in it are balanced around.

ECM is not the entire fulcrum of this game.

[Deathlike]

Ghogiel, on 03 April 2013 - 10:03 PM, said:

ECM is not the entire fulcrum of this game.

It actually is, and will be in serious play.

[Ghogiel]

Deathlike, on 03 April 2013 - 10:07 PM, said:

It actually is, and will be in serious play.

No it isn't, not even in serious play. SSRMs are usually only found on the 3L and no one uses LRMs anyway.

If you can't roflstomp the 7 DDC & 1 3L teams in 8mans, try harder.

[Peiper]

Ghogiel, on 03 April 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:

No it isn't, not even in serious play. SSRMs are usually only found on the 3L and no one uses LRMs anyway.

If you can't roflstomp the 7 DDC & 1 3L teams in 8mans, try harder.

Listen to yourself...

SSRM's are found on raven 3L's BECAUSE they have ECM and can't be countered except by the same...

No one uses LRM's because of ECM.

If you CAN roflstomp with several D-DC's and 3L's, WHY would you play anything else in competitive play?

[Brilig]

If you want to make mechs sneakier that's fine. There are ways to do it without making LRMs, and SSRMs nearly useless. It would be nice to have a real counter to ECM aside from the useless ones we have now. (TAG is ok.)

The only current hard counter is to bring more or as much ECM as the enemy and charge into the 180 meter bubble. The rest of the counters are nearly useless.

If I remember right with advanced sensor module 2 you can get a target lock on an enemy mech between 180-250 meters. That leaves you with a laughably tiny zone in which you can bring LRMs, or SSRMs to bear against an ECM equipped mech. 70 meter lockable zone with 2 modules? Great "counter."

The extra PPC utility is better than nothing, but it is just as much of a joke. Make sure you can hit the enemy mech at least once every 4 seconds for the entire flight time of your missiles after you lock on.

TAG works alright, but even it has the issue of having to keep a target painted for the entire missile flight.

LRMs already have all the same drawbacks the other weapons do (cover/LOS) plus a long time till target impact that requires you to be locked on the entire time. Granted they have an advantage of being able to be fired from cover if someone else will maintain a lock for you. Still you have no guaranteed hits unless the target is caught a ways away from cover. People usually have plenty of time to doge missiles between the incoming missile message and when the missiles actually hit.

ECM would be alright if you could equip something that would give you a real counter to it aside from more ECM capable mechs. Give BAP that utility. It does not have to be a hard counter. Give it a real zone in which it will allow people to target, lock on, and share information about an ECM mech. Say 180 meters to 380 meters. Enemy mechs can still hide until they are very close. And missile equipped support mechs can still have a chance to do their job once contact has been made with the enemy.

A 200 meter wide zone that you have to take special equipment to get is an example of a useful counter. We need something that doesn't nerf ECM, but gives non ECM mechs that are missile heavy a chance to be useful to the team.

[JeepStuff]

The most effective counter to ECM's was blue thermal vision. I'm glad for the new vision modes, but when you did that, you simultaneously gave ECM a huge buff when it needed a slight nerf. Not a huge nerf, in my opinion, but a bit.

I'm with the rest of the community that PPC's are a lousy "counter". I also think knowing the location of the ECM on the mech is mostly useless in practice, unless it's in an arm where it can be blown off easily. If it's in the torso, then "meh".

But making the rest of your team visible in the presence of ECM is HUGE HUGE HUGE for pugs. So well done on that. I'm not sure if that will completely balance the ECM, but it should help a lot. We'll see how it all plays out.

[Ghogiel]

Peiper, on 03 April 2013 - 10:15 PM, said:

Listen to yourself...

SSRM's are found on raven 3L's BECAUSE they have ECM and can't be countered except by the same...

No one uses LRM's because of ECM.

If you CAN roflstomp with several D-DC's and 3L's, WHY would you play anything else in competitive play?

duh, ECM jams locks inside 180m as intended.

No one ever really consistently used LRMs in competitive games since forever. even before ECM existed.

And yeah, exactly, Why would you change set ups that can roflstomp the 7 DDC and 3L setups, no reason to switch to using a similar one?

Edited by Ghogiel, 03 April 2013 - 10:21 PM.

[Uncleclint]

ECM should´ve been implemented in a Rock-Paper-Scissors way, maybe with an additional option for Spock-Lizard but right now all i can see is a rock (being the ECM) and some scissors (PPC, Adv.Sensors).

This is not working well.