1089 replies to this topic

[ObsidianSpectre]

AMS and ECM are both 1.5 tons needing two crit slots. Is there any serious build where you'd say 'drop ECM, use an AMS instead?' If not, I don't see how PGI can claim ECM is balanced.

[Cycleboy]

ObsidianSpectre, on 10 April 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

AMS and ECM are both 1.5 tons needing two crit slots. Is there any serious build where you'd say 'drop ECM, use an AMS instead?' If not, I don't see how PGI can claim ECM is balanced.

Moreover... if you have ECM, is it even worth taking AMS at all? Or do you consider yourself LRM immune just from the ECM?

[Urdnot Mau]

Cycleboy, on 10 April 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Moreover... if you have ECM, is it even worth taking AMS at all? Or do you consider yourself LRM immune just from the ECM?

In my 3L i actually have AMS. I think that ECM doesn't grant ever lasting imunity to homing missiles, since it's possible someone on the other team can have TAG or Adv. Sensor. Also, if someone fires Streaks at 200m + AMS helps. I had the free tonnage so i thought "hey! why not?"

[Yokaiko]

DocBach, on 10 April 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

C3 is suppose to be countered by ECM. Like critical fumble pointed out, the problem with ECM isn't its debuffing nature, its the fact that not only does it debuff, it buffs the user with radar and missile immunity.

The missile immunity is what tosses it out of balance.

[DocBach]

If it was toned down to a debuff to the lock on time to increase lock time the same amount of time beagle decreases it, there would be a bit more balance.

[Karr285]

Whats even more ludicrous is not only does ECM make you immune to lock on, once you actually tag somebody with ECM you are hit with ECM Intended purpose that it takes even longer to lock on then a mech without ECM coverage. So ECM literally does Guardian and Angel mechanics.

And can we really just go back the matter at hand it is 3050 in this game I would love a devs explanation as to how we have Angel in 3050, cuz at this point we may as well just go get MRM, the rest of the ER lasers, Uac family Streak family etc, cuz whats the damn point a timeline if you are just going to cherry pick crap from the future.

Oh and as a cherry on the top for future references

Clan Systems

In the Clans, the Guardian ECM suite was used as the basis for an improved ECM Suite. This system can be found in every Clan's touman. They weigh a single ton, and can be mounted on nearly anything.

[AgroAlba]

Space Odin, on 09 April 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

I'd just like to point out there's 41 pages almost entirely comprised of people with negative opinions about the state of ECM.

ECM is not "polarizing content" unless you mean polarizing between the developers and the community, because the community unanimously dislikes ECM. The only people who like it are the people who use it and even they admit it's broken.

The most unhappy usually cry the loudest, and expend the most energy in doing so... thus 41 pages.

Also, 41 pages (even the generous assumption that each post is from a different individual) does not the whole MWO community make.

Edited by AgroAntirrhopus, 10 April 2013 - 12:21 PM.

[Vapor Trail]

AgroAntirrhopus, on 10 April 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

The most unhappy usually cry the loudest, and expend the most energy in doing so... thus 41 pages.

Also, 41 pages (even the generous assumption that each post is from a different individual) does not the whole MWO community make.

I'd quibble with the term unanimously. But that's only because of the definition.

There seems to be a strong, if not overwhelming, majority of that opinion. ECM, as implemented, is quite a bit stronger than it was in tabletop. Which is quite the understatement to start with.

[BD Magnum]

Quote

Guardian ECM, like all features in the game, is very close to where we want it to be.

This is not what I was hoping to read.

While i like what ECM is trying to do for gameplay, I really don't like that it's done at the expense of any semblence of balance among mech chassis and variants.

[Critical Fumble]

DocBach, on 10 April 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

C3 is suppose to be countered by ECM. Like critical fumble pointed out, the problem with ECM isn't its debuffing nature, its the fact that not only does it debuff, it buffs the user with radar and missile immunity.

I was more getting at the destruction of any risk/reward balance in the support gear.

For instance, with BAP you're rewarded with some sensor buffs, but risk being neutralized by ECM and effectively being out 1.5 tons. Meanwhile, ECM is effectively all reward. With the cannon elements you risk that the other side has no support gear or that your ECM will be ECCMed (though that would also have the effect of neutralize someone else's ECM) and are rewarded by jamming various gear items. But adding on the missile denial, sensor obstruction, and info sharing block, you add in rewards that have no matching risk. While you can take it down to some extent, that fact that those extra effects are there applies a second nerf to the things it counters because it makes ECM more prevalent. As near as I can tell, the only thing that makes them undesirable is boredom from the small number of chassis that can carry it.

Not that I'm in love with TT's EW risk/reward system. Its more a dice roll about what is or is not on the field rather than any player technique. Ammo, though, is a great example of a good risk/reward setup. You need ammo to do damage with some weapons, but if you miss or don't manage to use all of it, you've wasted that tonnage. You also have to worry about it exploding and killing you. It would be nice if the MW:O system was more about soft counters or active use of gear items, because the current system is more about who has what rather than who is good at what.

[zztophat]

ForestGnome, on 10 April 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Just make a BAP actually tell the pilot that the BAP is being jammed by an ECM.

That's the one part of the BAP that is missing. It would completely balance out ECM. You wouldn't get target info on the carrier, but you'll at least get a warning that your BAP is being jammed by an EMS in a general direction.

This actually makes a lot of sense because in reality when you broadcast a powerful jamming signal everyone knows it. They may not be able to tell exactly where it is coming from, due the fact that it is jamming but that much electronics noise being shot in to the air is not something that would go unnoticed. I have always thought that using BAP to counter ECM should highlight any ECM broadcasting mechs while it does it, as job one for electronic warfare is find out out where the enemies electronic warfare is coming from and a system of advanced sensors should be able to sort through noise and locate the source, the process however would require a bit of time.

[Peiper]

Actually, in reality, ECM does a bunch of stuff.

Actually, in this video game, ECM does a bunch of stuff. The difference is in the reality of warfare, every side looks to find an advantage over the other despite fairness. In a game, we look for balance so that every player can employ a variety of tactics and mechs to make a difference and to win in different ways. Players, by nature, will look for every advantage they can get and it is up to the game designers to make a game where there is no one clear way to gain an advantage over another that cannot be countered.

The development and implementation of ECM has been an antithesis of the basic laws of game design. It is imbalanced game designs that relegate even the coolest looking games to the trash-heap. If a game rule or mechanic allows for one player to dominate over the other by simply employing a certain tactic or piece of hardware, then that part of the game is broken and must be fixed.

We've seen this in the limiting of engine sizes to prevent the 9 medium laser hunchback speedsters, the fixing of the head hit boxes, missile pathing, projectile speeds, host-state rewind, temporary removal of collisions, temporary nerfing of missiles until they figure out how to distribute damage properly, and so on. Yet ECM (even with the upcoming changes) is still an area cloaking device that covers multiple mechs and can be compounded so that if one ECM mech is being countered, another can continue to produce the cloaking field. This cloaking field allows for units, large and small, to move around on the map without being seen to get into medium/close ranges, and it allows for light mechs to move among enemy mechs to blind their sensors even when they're trying to counter with TAG and the like. The best counter to ECM is more ECM, and only certain mechs carry it, encouraging people to play only those certain four mechs over others they might want to play. If ECM were given to every chassis, that would help because it would level the playing field (and EVERYONE would take it, proving what a game-changer it is), but ECM would still have the fundamental problem of being an area cloaking device.

The fact is, ECM is a game-changing piece of equipment that doesn't belong in the battletech universe, and instead of continuing to try to justify it's existence, it should be removed. The Guardian ECM Suite should be reintroduced as simply a counter to other types of electronics. It should not affect the passive sensors (radar) of other mechs. The countering of BAP, Artemis, TAG, and NARC is WELL WORTH 1.5 tons. The cloaking function has to go.

If the designers want to reintroduce cloaking, there could be other equipment, appropriately weighted and balanced that could have these effects - at the cost of speed, firepower, armor or a combination thereof. Scouts could perhaps get this kind of gear, and command mechs could get gear that would counter the cloaking fields within a certain radius. That would allow for scouts to sneak around and do their jobs, and command mechs to be somewhat immune so they could do their role of commanding lances and such.

PGI, there are SO MANY alternatives. You've already proved you're willing to **** canon to make ECM into something else, so why not just change things around and instead of making ECM broken, introduce gear that does similar stuff at a balanced cost? WHY are you so stubborn as to admit that ECM as it is is FUBAR? MOST people think ECM is FUBAR. However, MOST people would be willing to consider individual or area cloaking devices IF there was an appropriate cost involved and IF there were appropriate counters that could be taken. Even the classic battletech crowd, who you keep snubbing, would consider it, as long as the stuff introduced was balanced, fair, and appropriate to the spirit of the game you are attempting to reinvent.

But, come on, just give it up already, before the players give up on you. I beg you on behalf of all the players that used to play all the time and now only come around to 'check in' once in awhile in order to see if the game has been fixed yet. Yeah, they want community warfare, but the guys I talk with want the game balanced NOW and the new features LATER, because all the new features in the world will still suck if they aren't backed up by a solid, balanced foundation. We don't all agree on what exactly should be changed, but we do all agree that it needs to be balanced NOW before the game launches.

Both PGI and the players want the same thing, but PGI is stuck in a self-destructive paradigm. We keep saying, and you keep ignoring the fact that ECM/Cloaking Device is FUBAR. Admit it, throw it out, redesign it and move on before we move on without you...

Edited by Peiper, 11 April 2013 - 03:06 AM.

[MiJaMu]

Right now the only effective counter to an ECM atlas is another ECM atlas. However, I have dropped into one too many PUG matches where not one, but TWO ECM atlases were on the same team (dropping together, maybe?) while the other team had none. Those matches usually end quickly as they are severely unbalanced in favor of the ECM team.

Enter the PPC. It does reveal atlases, but I would like to see it do a little more.

How about this:
1. Whenever you are struck by PPC, it causes feedback and disrupts your own sensors/HUD for a short time. This change could be applied to all ECM mechs, but would affect the Atlases most since they are easier to hit with PPC fire. Think of it as a potential penalty or risk that comes with equipping ECM.

2. Then if an enemy with PPC keeps knocking out your sensors, you should be able to turn your ECM off and prevent the feedback from occurring. The choice then becomes between having ECM or working sensors.

I know this is not canon. But since PGI has already strayed from the TT implementation of ECM, why not?

[RJGatling]

How about allowing us to choose if we enter games where ecm is allowed?

[Deathlike]

Hammacher Schlemmer, on 11 April 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

How about allowing us to choose if we enter games where ecm is allowed?

No. You either have to balance ECM, or you have to change MM to factor in ECM. Your request is like those who don't want to play certain maps... you must play what you are dealt with.

[Twisted Power]

Hammacher Schlemmer, on 11 April 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

How about allowing us to choose if we enter games where ecm is allowed?

Like they are going to do with 3rd person view? Yea..... not going to work at all.

[Gopblin2]

Making PPCs switch ECM off for MUCH longer than 4 seconds would also be a (very small) step in the right direction.

I mean, what does 4 seconds give ya? The chance to glimpse where everything is for one second, or the chance to launch missiles but not land them?

If PPC hits disabled the Jesus Box for like 40 seconds, the devs could talk about them as an ECM counter without us laughing.

Of course, that would still only counter D-DCs, as competent light mechs are very hard to hit due to the currently bugged state of the game.

Best wishes,
Daniel

Edited by Gopblin2, 11 April 2013 - 11:41 AM.

[Nick Carlile]

I still just don't understand why PGI won't just balance their weapons such that ECM doesn't need to be a hard counter to LRM's.

[Gopblin2]

They did. LRMs now do pitiful damage even if the enemy doesn't move fast, use cover or AMS.

The problem is that Jesus Box is still in the game, which combined with nerfs makes missiles completely obsolete and generally screws mech balance.

Best wishes,
Daniel.

[RJGatling]

Deathlike, on 11 April 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

No. You either have to balance ECM, or you have to change MM to factor in ECM. Your request is like those who don't want to play certain maps... you must play what you are dealt with.

I understand what you're saying about maps and I fully agree with that. You have to have a balanced build to deal with cold and hot maps alike, short and long range as well. However, this isn't a build balance issue as many have stated before. The only way to truly nullify the advantages of ecm are to play with it yourself. In addition, those who don't use it are arguably at a large disadvantage. I would love to see the metrics of mechs with and without ecm equipped.

Edited by Hammacher Schlemmer, 11 April 2013 - 02:59 PM.