164 replies to this topic

[Sorter]

Fast question to guy who made this thread:

Have You ever played crowdfunded MMO game (with official "open beta" status) other than MWO ?

If yes:

What was Your experience with it ?

Edited by Sorter, 05 April 2013 - 01:25 AM.

[Hekalite]

Appogee, on 04 April 2013 - 11:58 PM, said:

Thank you for understanding my points.

As I said in my OP, I am going to spend money on this game (well, when the over-zealous payment gateway eventually lets me LOL). My post is intended to encourage addressing of long term bugs, just as would be done for the post-release game that this clearly is

Very good additional point. MW already has a steep learning curve. That plus ''where's my reticle gone'' and ''why does the minimap show I'm facing backwards'' are going to turn off new players doublequick.

Asking for long standing bugs to be addressed has nothing to do with the status of the game (beta or not). It's irrelevant because bugs should always be addressed asap. Except it's not really irrelevant, because the presence of long standing bugs in a beta are to be expected. That's why a developer will slap that label on something, to let you know what to expect if you use their product.

As for the technical issues themselves, I suggest you read this: http://mwomercs.com/...65#entry2182465

If you don't understand why QA is a difficult task then I can't help you (and that applies regardless of your personal experience with the subject). Fixing bugs is easy. It usually takes a few minutes or hours, finding them can take a long time. It really doesn't matter how many people demand that something be fixed right now, it won't make the work go any faster. Nor will putting more people on the task unless they happen to be the right people.

Edited by Hekalite, 05 April 2013 - 03:51 AM.

[Appogee]

Zaptruder, on 05 April 2013 - 12:54 AM, said:

I mean... are they not going to fix bugs if people don't complain? Well... I suppose if they don't know about them. But once it reaches a point where, yes, they are indeed aware of the problem... what else can be done to fix it faster? Hire more people? Aren't they doing that already?

But the unfortunate truth of that is, sometimes you can't even just throw cooks at the problem; too many cooks in a kitchen can ruin a dish and all that. In game development terms, it means that people need to be trained up to understand the codebase, which takes time, and it's a difficult thing to have everyone on exactly the same page when coding all the time - too many different solutions and perspectives ends up with developmental and design fragmentation, which in itself causes problems.

So... the game can only be improved at the rate at which it is been improved, regardless of how much angst there is or isn't on the forums.

I understand the logic of what you're saying, but I don't agree with it. SW projects have finite development resources. Those resources can be deployed against any number of objectives. In this instance, insufficient of the available resources and focus seems to be allocated to addressing two key QA challenges...fixing some longstanding bugs, and releasing patches which don't break the game for a critical mass of players.

So, the game can be fixed faster, if the head developers want it to be.

But I agree with you that threads in the forum probably make little difference to the development plan. The devs likely rarely read the forums. However, if enough paying customers express concern about longstanding bugs, then the developers may for commercial reasons focus more of their resources on resolving those concerns. (I noticed that the kerfuffle over Easter about the payment for Merc slots eventually tempted the head designer to at least issue a Tweet trying to set the record straight.)

But you know, all this is rationalisation. We are all in these forums because we like playing MWO and because we want to discuss aspects of it. Saying ''all threads are pointless'' is in inherently true. But personally I don't see any harm in us discussing a game we all enjoy.

Edited by Appogee, 05 April 2013 - 04:05 AM.

[Smokeyjedi]

priorities need to be addressed @ PGI, or this Beta will be more like a gamble or risk from failure to launch live on this current path. with no guarantee all this potential funding is going to definitely produce a solid stable platform for us mechwarriors to thrive on. the risk is rising constantly, the rewards not so much........unless ur blinded by the shiny mechs..........and MC fever.

[Lugh]

Ps leave their poor egos alone. If they didn't have the but it's beta, all they have is an absolutely horribly coded mess that they keep breaking more, taking what used to be a fun and sometimes frustrating experience and turning it into a nightmare.


PPS The game crashes have become so maddening for me I went back to EVE and you know how frustrating that game is....

[Barghest Whelp]

You know, I'm fine with the game being "beta" even though I don't really feel that the term is suitable for this game.

What I'm not fine with, is using the "beta" tag as an excuse for the product being sub par. Excuses don't fix any problems, and they certainly don't make anything any better. I sometimes get the feeling that people are just repeating the "it's only beta" mantra believing that as long as they keep repeating the same mantra everything is going to be fine.

The game has loads of problems. From balance issues to gamebreaking bugs (broken UI and map, I'm looking at you). If this game is in beta, then a much larger portion of dev resources should go towards fixing these bugs, rather than figuring out new ways to increase revenue. Most of the new content is simply put in place to increase revenue, and not really new content.

That being said, it actually due to this lack of content that my playtime has gone down drastically recently. We seriously need some better map objectives and also some form of metagame to make it interesting. The way things are right now this doesn't feel like mechwarrior at all to me. It's just a slow fps with mechs.

Basically, to me, this game is realeased, and I've gone through all the content. Hopefully it'll get more interesting with the next expansion.

[Joseph Mallan]

BlackWidow, on 04 April 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Ok fine. You can have it your way. Since it's open to every one and they can take payments from you let's not pretend. It's NOT beta.

But get this. It's a soft release of a game that is STILL IN ACTIVE DEVELOPMENT. Do you have a moniker for that? No you don't because they never really existed before the past few months.

So, come up with a new name of give me the 'official' one that is being used currently and will go with that and everyone can shut up about the WHOLE beta/non-beta crap.

Open Beta works for me. *shrug*

[Darwins Dog]

Barghest Whelp, on 05 April 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

You know, I'm fine with the game being "beta" even though I don't really feel that the term is suitable for this game.

What I'm not fine with, is using the "beta" tag as an excuse for the product being sub par. Excuses don't fix any problems, and they certainly don't make anything any better. I sometimes get the feeling that people are just repeating the "it's only beta" mantra believing that as long as they keep repeating the same mantra everything is going to be fine.

The game has loads of problems. From balance issues to gamebreaking bugs (broken UI and map, I'm looking at you). If this game is in beta, then a much larger portion of dev resources should go towards fixing these bugs, rather than figuring out new ways to increase revenue. Most of the new content is simply put in place to increase revenue, and not really new content.

That being said, it actually due to this lack of content that my playtime has gone down drastically recently. We seriously need some better map objectives and also some form of metagame to make it interesting. The way things are right now this doesn't feel like mechwarrior at all to me. It's just a slow fps with mechs.

Basically, to me, this game is realeased, and I've gone through all the content. Hopefully it'll get more interesting with the next expansion.

Is calling it a complete game going to fix the problems then? The beta tag isn't an excuse for the problems it's a heads up to potential players that things aren't finished. There's bugs and problems and things don't run smoothly yet. That's what they are conveying (or at least trying to) with the beta tag. I think that it turns into a mantra because a lot of people seem to forget that they aren't playing a polished game, and that they may have to wait for the changes that they want to see.

I think that the things like paint schemes and colors are there because they're relatively easy to do (and because they're made by artists and not coders), and as a bonus they make money. Also, a new chassis and hero mech every month and new maps seem a lot like new content to me. As to objectives and metagame, well recent interviews suggest that such things are on the way. If you come back in a month or two you may just like what you see.

[Syllogy]

[Jetfire]

MWO is not in Open Beta everyone! It is just an excuse, if they lanched the game today everything would change! Oh wait... no, PGI needs time, they just do. Sorry everyone.

[Roadbeer]

But we're still testing... stress/build, whatever.

I have a pile of semantics in my back yard if you really want to go **** over something.

[DKTuesday]

By most people's definition of beta, every single funded kickstarter game, with a working demo or beta, is fully released. Got it. Thanks.

[Viper69]

Roadbeer, on 05 April 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

But we're still testing... stress/build, whatever.

I have a pile of semantics in my back yard if you really want to go **** over something.

My point was we have no tools to be testers other than just hitting launch. Do you have any special tools at your disposal? Its far from semantics but we can agree to disagree I guess.

Edited by Viper69, 05 April 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[Roadbeer]

You have a client, perception, reasonable intelligence of how things are supposed to work, Feedback forums and a bug reporting form. Pretty much the same thing as I've had in every CB/OB I've ever participated in. I can only think of one or two that actually had an in game submission tool.

[Fooooo]

Viper69, on 05 April 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

My point was we have no tools to be testers other than just hitting launch. Do you have any special tools at your disposal? Its far from semantics but we can agree to disagree I guess.

Did WoT have any special tools at your disposal ?

Did WoW ?

Did PotBS ? (pirates of the burning sea)

Did PS2 ?

In fact, almost no beta I've ever been in had any special "tools" other than the occasional Survey upon login and a bug report form, either ingame or out of game. Whoop-de-do.


Also, more generally.....

If its not in beta, then how are they going to "launch" at the end of summer ?

It would make no sense to have a proper "release" if it were already.......released.....if you get me ?

Edited by Fooooo, 05 April 2013 - 07:19 AM.

[Riogar Daylighter]

The "it's beta" reason in my experience and what I have read on the forums is only to tone down the rage not a form of acceptance. It is open beta. Instead of raging and look like a 12 year old girl who needs a daily dose of drama that she makes up her own situations and meanings just to get attention from people just to start an argument send a support ticket instead.

[Sifright]

Fooooo, on 05 April 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

Did WoT have any special tools at your disposal ?

Did WoW ?

Did PotBS ? (pirates of the burning sea)

Did PS2 ?

In fact, almost no beta I've ever been in had any special "tools" other than the occasional Survey upon login and a bug report form, either ingame or out of game. Whoop-de-do.


Also, more generally.....

If its not in beta, then how are they going to "launch" at the end of summer ?

It would make no sense to have a proper "release" if it were already.......released.....if you get me ?

Define proper release.

They certainly aren't going to be sending packaged boxes with a disc of the game on it.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Unfortunately for your opinion it is still beta, and the good news is not for long! Now come off it.

[Sifright]

M4NTiC0R3X, on 05 April 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Unfortunately for your opinion it is still beta, and the good news is not for long! Now come off it.

Do you think the bugs will magically disappear when the tag gets removed?

Or will you then say "it's only just been released?"

Dismissing peoples complaints is not how you can help PGI dude.

[BlackWidow]

Odins Fist, on 04 April 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

Totally irrelevant to the debate.. try again



That is the real issue here, while I totally understand the position of the DEVs, and that they need more time to fully finish MWO, there is an unfortunate reality to this situation, and that is "How long to you think people are going to wait", and not because they don't like MWO, but because player retention is directly related to the attention span of online gamers. If consumers do not feel satisfied with a product, then they will not spend money on said product, that is the simple reality of the situation.. Everything else is semantics.

BINGO!

Which is one of the reason companies don't like to release products before the are ready (dozens of MMO's seem an obvious exception to this rule) and carefully control marketing releases as well. Pop too early and people will lose interest before product hits.

I for one though love MW and and very happy to be participating in the soft-release/beta instead of just drooling at tidbits and trailers for another year.

I also prepurchased Star Citizen and will hopefully start participating in their ALPHA client by the end of this year. I am curious if they will go through the exact same process as PGI has. ie. Forum meltdown due to people's inability to grasp the concept of playing a game while still in early development.

If so, I wonder if anyone will even bother to look back here and say "Oh, sorry. It wasn't just you PGI. Apparently this is just a new type of game release method and we were too stupid to realize/appreciate it."

Doubt it.