135 replies to this topic

[Little Nemo]

Slaytronic, on 07 April 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

then lets go on to world of tanks which this game steals much from

Your reference had no valid influence. All this is, is a matter of opinion from the OP. He doesn't agree that people that can shoot should be able to use Gauss/AC20 etc.

I think he wants to see LRMs, small lasers and AC2's on every mech.

[Duncan Fisher]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Every time I hear the word "competitive" and "MWO" in the same sentence (let alone the same paragraph) I shutter a little bit. The game has no real diversity in it's core playing mechanics, as MIN/MAX'ing is the defining line between victory and defeat. Here are some issues that make it so, and combined, kill all notion of a competitive game in the future. (PGI states most of them are "competitive" gamers, but their product says otherwise.)

In competitive play, everything must be viable in some way, shape or form, but in MWO, the line is few and far between. It's awful.... and I dont see a competitive future for a product as this.

Hold on a minute, since when does 'competitive' necessitate 'diversity?'

To take your example of Starcraft, there are plenty of different strategies, but only a few are actually used in competitive play. There are units that see almost zero use at the top level depending on the current state of the 'meta.'

Whether or not a game can be competitive is based almost exclusively on the nature of the gameplay itself. All I see here is a thinly veiled attempt to complain about how strong builds make weak builds obsolete.

[RockWolf]

First off you can't make everyone happy. The notion of being competitive is just being able to adapt. One day SRMs where the go to for short range builds now its lasers and Ac20s. People who adapt succeed. During the days after the leg hit detection was changed and LRM would decimate anything, I left my CTF-3D aside for a Catapult with 3 medium pulses and 2 LRM 15s with jumpjets. I adapted and scored big. 1700 big.


The only thing that I hate the most after haxs is lag shield. Everyone can agree that a good net-code and having every shot on target register is the most important thing. After that it is just balancing. IMO standard heat sinks should have been introduced after the clans invade, most stock builds don't use doubles anyway. Imagine... you can't run gauss because it explodes all the time, but you run too hot for PPCS. What a nice place to be. Then when the clan arrive, we get face stomped.
I am not even actually worried about clanners. Unless running cool with 6 ER large lasers on Timber wolves is possible, my 3D will be able to take on most Clan mechs just fine.

All I wanted to say, someone somewhere isn't going to be happy and we can all agree that fixing the basic principles( shooting and moving) should be the first thing on their list.


Just join a clan that does RHOD or the Marik Campaign and eat, breathe and die competitively .

[Mackman]

Duncan Fisher, on 07 April 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

Hold on a minute, since when does 'competitive' necessitate 'diversity?'

To take your example of Starcraft, there are plenty of different strategies, but only a few are actually used in competitive play. There are units that see almost zero use at the top level depending on the current state of the 'meta.'

Whether or not a game can be competitive is based almost exclusively on the nature of the gameplay itself. All I see here is a thinly veiled attempt to complain about how strong builds make weak builds obsolete.

I was going to post, but this basically says everything I wanted to say. OP basically just listed a few things he doesn't like about MWO, and then claimed (without any evidence at all) that those things make it "not competitive."

[jakucha]

Matches would be incredibly short if they didn't double armor. It wouldn't hold up well. As for weapons, I think we'll be able to make greater strides towards balance for the ones that need it after netcode is more stable through and through. No point in trying to hammer all the weapon stats out when they don't always hit when they should.

[Zyllos]

You can still modify weapon convergence to balance out alpha strikes and chain firing without adding cone-of-fire.

Weapon Convergence is Leading to Game Imbalance
Balancing Weapon Fire Styles

[Dudeman3k]

Skinny Pete, on 07 April 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Your reference had no valid influence. All this is, is a matter of opinion from the OP. He doesn't agree that people that can shoot should be able to use Gauss/AC20 etc.

I think he wants to see LRMs, small lasers and AC2's on every mech.

no, I dont really care if people mount dual 20... the problem is that in that 6 Ballistic Jagarmech, your only using 2 of those weapon slots to MAX your dmg potential.... and then you proceed to use that very same build on all other variants. I listed 3 things that will make it a very uncompetitive for one very good reason. when all teams start to look like AC20, ECM PPC boats, all you will expect to see are the same tactics with the same builds. It wouldn't even be fun to watch becuase you already know the key elements required to win a MWO competition.

I would LOVE to see MG's being used, not because it would be cheese, but because that variant allows for for it. 2 LL's and 4 MG's just in case you start running hot, and not be horribly gimped because they're not AC2's.

I would LOVE to see jenners equipped with 2 flamers and not get laughed at because he delves in and out of battle targeting ammo in a mech and suppress those nasty PPC users.

I would love to see BAP being equipped on some mechs to Identify it's opponents ECM carries.

But in all. I would LOVE to see overall balance.

there needs to be a give and take in-order for balance to be achieved. If your moving fast, your shooting will be a bit off. give and take. why else is their a throttle? why do tanks slow to sustainable speeds before engaging the enemy? why do you zero a rifle before you qualify? why do lay prone before you fire? convergence. And a lot of the balancing issues we have, i feel, can be solved if they fix the pin-point dmg as long as you see them.

for instance.

Benefit for LRMs.:

Able to move at max speeds and shoot with no penalty to convergence.

Cons:

Low damage, inaccurate regardless of motion.

Benefits of Lasers:

easier to control while in motion, can spread dmg even when at high speeds

Cons:

in motion, pin-point damage is difficult to achieve, heat

Ballistic benefits:

Pin-point damage on contact, low heat

Cons:

very difficult to maintain aim at high-speeds, ammo, ammo exposions

its simple really. So "rounding out" your build, you can take advantage of ALL aspects with convergence. and achieve perfect yin/yang. making MWO an ideal competitive game.

[Mackman]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

its simple really. So "rounding out" your build, you can take advantage of ALL aspects with convergence. and achieve perfect yin/yang. making MWO an ideal competitive game.

The problem with your argument is that you're not saying why being forced to build a "balanced" mech should lead to MWO being "an ideal competitive game." You're not actually making an argument: You're just asserting things that aren't obviously true.

For instance, look at League of Legends. If you try to "round out" your character there, you're going to do absolutely horribly. You're going to fail miserably in every aspect of the game. Yet it remains an extremely competitive game, with literally millions tuning in to watch the Season 2 championships.

Is MWO the same as LoL? Obviously not. But this still demonstrates that you actually need to make an argument:

Why is a team of 8 (or 12, soon) balanced mechs fighting another team of 12 balanced mechs both more enjoyable to play and more enjoyable to watch (which is a pretty good definition of competitive play), than 12 specialized mechs fighting another 12 specialized mechs?

That's the question you need to answer. And heck: Maybe you can answer it, at least to the satisfaction of the people who already agree with you. But the thing is, most people on these forums disagree with you. You need to convince us.

[Dudeman3k]

Mackman, on 07 April 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

The problem with your argument is that you're not saying why being forced to build a "balanced" mech should lead to MWO being "an ideal competitive game." You're not actually making an argument: You're just asserting things that aren't obviously true.

For instance, look at League of Legends. If you try to "round out" your character there, you're going to do absolutely horribly. You're going to fail miserably in every aspect of the game. Yet it remains an extremely competitive game, with literally millions tuning in to watch the Season 2 championships.

Is MWO the same as LoL? Obviously not. But this still demonstrates that you actually need to make an argument:

Why is a team of 8 (or 12, soon) balanced mechs fighting another team of 12 balanced mechs both more enjoyable to play and more enjoyable to watch (which is a pretty good definition of competitive play), than 12 specialized mechs fighting another 12 specialized mechs?

That's the question you need to answer. And heck: Maybe you can answer it, at least to the satisfaction of the people who already agree with you. But the thing is, most people on these forums disagree with you. You need to convince us.

In season 1, MAXing was a big issue Riot had with the ladder. It's now season 3, and you achieve much more by "balancing" your build than Maxing out dmg potential.

for instance. in season one, you would opt to set your rune pages with ALL spell pen, or ALL armor Pen, or ALL AtK. it was an issue addressed many times, and they fix it by lowering (or increasing) the values of some of the more / less desirable runes. Now, the leaders in the ladder have runes set with a mixture of critt chance, resistance, and HP or Atk and armor... LoL as is now, is VERY balanced, it's why it is such a heavy contender in the E-Sport genre. MWO is effected by the heavy MIN/MAX because of its convergence issue. and thats a balance issue... and with balance issues, you dont have a competitive game.

[DCLXVI]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

PGI has "tried" to address this issue by doubling armor

they need to hire a game designer to get in there. like, lets fix the ultra by making it jam and the ppc by making it randomly miss its crosshair, jesus. who did they buy these files from and why didn't they pay the extra to mod the files! you need more than access to weapon properties alone to fix this [redacted]. pgi! its in the game! no pun intended snicker snicker

Edited by Dakkath, 08 April 2013 - 06:31 AM.
Bypassing Language filter

[Mackman]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

In season 1, MAXing was a big issue Riot had with the ladder. It's now season 3, and you achieve much more by "balancing" your build than Maxing out dmg potential.

for instance. in season one, you would opt to set your rune pages with ALL spell pen, or ALL armor Pen, or ALL AtK. it was an issue addressed many times, and they fix it by lowering (or increasing) the values of some of the more / less desirable runes. Now, the leaders in the ladder have runes set with a mixture of critt chance, resistance, and HP or Atk and armor... LoL as is now, is VERY balanced, it's why it is such a heavy contender in the E-Sport genre. MWO is effected by the heavy MIN/MAX because of its convergence issue. and thats a balance issue... and with balance issues, you dont have a competitive game.

They messed with the Runes because they wanted to provide more choices. But instead of looking at things that give you tiny advantages, like maybe ten AP or Armor Pen, why aren't you looking at items?

If LoL was "balanced" in the way that you seem to be using balance, each character would be best used with a mix of Ability Power, Attack Damage, Health, and Magic Resistance/Armor. That isn't the case. Your argument from Runes says almost nothing.

[MadcatX]

One thing I think could be added to the list is the lack of a unit or lance ranking system in-game. A part of competitive play is having a mechanic that can compare your group/units stats with all the others.

[Aym]

OMG thank you for the good laugh! I'm sure next time I'm watching some football the running plays and passing plays and punts and field goals will feature generic, "rounded" offensive lines. Yup, same number of people on the line of scrimmage, backfield, regardless of what the team is trying to do.

While I'm at it, I'm looking forward to the next Starcraft tournament because since that is competitive play and you have so eloquently pointed out that well rounded builds are the heart of any competitive scene, I will expect generic well rounded build orders from every player. Better get a Hydra Den AND a Spire guys you wouldn't want to specialize too much or it's "uncompetitive" according to the OP. Also you have no understanding of Starcraft. No one but NO ONE made seige tanks w/out researchign seige (also seige is default now, no more researching it, but you're only a couple of months out of date there) UNLESS you were going for an ALL-IN timing attack which, btw, is contrary to your whole argument.

Also, this just in, Cent 9-A are NOT competitively piloted as SRM boats, they're balanced builds. Heads up to all you Cent pilots out there who may have mistaken your 3 SRM-6's and 2 MLas for a close range loadout...

[Dudeman3k]

Aym, on 07 April 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

OMG thank you for the good laugh! I'm sure next time I'm watching some football the running plays and passing plays and punts and field goals will feature generic, "rounded" offensive lines. Yup, same number of people on the line of scrimmage, backfield, regardless of what the team is trying to do.

While I'm at it, I'm looking forward to the next Starcraft tournament because since that is competitive play and you have so eloquently pointed out that well rounded builds are the heart of any competitive scene, I will expect generic well rounded build orders from every player. Better get a Hydra Den AND a Spire guys you wouldn't want to specialize too much or it's "uncompetitive" according to the OP. Also you have no understanding of Starcraft. No one but NO ONE made seige tanks w/out researchign seige (also seige is default now, no more researching it, but you're only a couple of months out of date there) UNLESS you were going for an ALL-IN timing attack which, btw, is contrary to your whole argument.

Also, this just in, Cent 9-A are NOT competitively piloted as SRM boats, they're balanced builds. Heads up to all you Cent pilots out there who may have mistaken your 3 SRM-6's and 2 MLas for a close range loadout...

lol, right, you build stalkers, zealots, sentries, void rays and phoenixs... but WAIT!!!! thats a balanced army isn't it?! amazing.

As it stands NOW, being competitive in MWO is MIN/MAXing. that clearly isnt the case with SC2, or LoL. You actually go a long way having a unit capable of shooting air and ground units in SC, as being a Tank/support in LoL. In MWO if you don't boat and take advantage of the pin-point convergence, your not being competitive. If your not doing over 40 DMG per alpha ina single location, your not being competitive. Thats the issue. And thats why there is no over-all competitive level with MWO.

Edited by Dudeman3k, 07 April 2013 - 05:44 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

As it stands NOW, being competitive in MWO is MIN/MAXing.

What does "min-maxing" mean in the context of a game without ability scores?

[Aym]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

lol, right, you build stalkers, zealots, sentries, void rays and phoenixs... but WAIT!!!! thats a balanced army isn't it?! amazing.

As it stands NOW, being competitive in MWO is MIN/MAXing. that clearly isnt the case with SC2, or LoL. You actually go a long way having a unit capable of shooting air and ground units in SC, as being a Tank/support in LoL. In MWO if you don't boat and take advantage of the pin-point convergence, your not being competitive. If your not doing over 40 DMG per alpha ina single location, your not being competitive. Thats the issue. And thats why there is no over-all competitive level with MWO.

What? When EVER did someone build those units in a competitive game? Marine Marauder Medivac is not rounded, Zealot/Archon is not rounded, in fact Zealot Archon is a very powerful VERY short ranged build that kind of points out where your idea of "rounded = competitive" is just wrong.

[Dudeman3k]

Royalewithcheese, on 07 April 2013 - 05:53 PM, said:

What does "min-maxing" mean in the context of a game without ability scores?

using the current no penalty weapon convergence as a means of "ability score". You have a Trebuchet, but remove the LRM's to place SRM's in the slots becuase it helps your pin point alpha strike.

[Mackman]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

lol, right, you build stalkers, zealots, sentries, void rays and phoenixs... but WAIT!!!! thats a balanced army isn't it?! amazing.

As it stands NOW, being competitive in MWO is MIN/MAXing. that clearly isnt the case with SC2, or LoL. You actually go a long way having a unit capable of shooting air and ground units in SC, as being a Tank/support in LoL. In MWO if you don't boat and take advantage of the pin-point convergence, your not being competitive. If your not doing over 40 DMG per alpha ina single location, your not being competitive. Thats the issue. And thats why there is no over-all competitive level with MWO.

No, it is clearly the case with LoL. LoL is all about Min/Maxing, because it's built into the characters themselves. They're meant to be min-maxed by virtue of how their abilities scale.

However, you do have a point with SC2. It's much more challenging to control a mixed army and make maximum use of it, as well as being absolutely awe-inspiring to watch. With that in mind, if PGI does somehow make mixed loadouts more effective, I probably won't complain: As long as it's not done with any arbitrary stupidness.

[torgian]

I am forced to both agree and disagree with you.

For instance, I have found that with good teamwork ability (and a bit of luck) a team full of pugs can still overtake the enemy.

I have also had a good time with my mechs, and I keep them mostly balanced. Example: One of my cataphracts has two PPCs, two medium lasers, and an ac10. Another as two large pulses, two medium pulses, and an ac 10.

My trebuchet has an er-ppc, four medium lasers, and an srm6 (along with jump jets) and yes, this mech does tend to run hot.

I have done well in all of those mechs. I'm not the most damage dealing type, but I do get my kills and am able to contribute well.

However, I agree that the game has kind of devolved into a min/max brawl with very little REAL competition. The close games where victory or loss is a slim margin on both sides are rare.

The only way I can see this changing are when leagues come about where they have restrictions on loadouts and stuff. But I doubt that will happen in the near future, if at all, due to the company's plan with this game.

[Royalewithcheese]

Dudeman3k, on 07 April 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

using the current no penalty weapon convergence as a means of "ability score". You have a Trebuchet, but remove the LRM's to place SRM's in the slots becuase it helps your pin point alpha strike.

And what would a build that isn't "min-maxed" be, in your mind?