I see nothing competitive about a being dropped into a big FFA=FREE FOR ALL and the only real factors is how well your ECM works. Lets look at the 3L factor again or the new POPTARD phenomenon.
-FFA is not one of the available game modes.
-There are ways to deal with ECM, Raven's, and poptarts.
-That pic you posted is very fitting. Your statement is filled with fear and superstition and has no true content.
competitive this game never 1. It's not popular enough 2. It's a game where one person can kill the whole enemy team
3. It's not skill based 4. many more reasons
Your statements appear to contradict each other.
Not skilled based.
One person can kill the whole enemy team.
If one person can kill a whole enemy team and everyone has access to the same equipment (which they do; save for brand new players running trials); then it has to be skill (user decisions) making that difference.
Skill matters a great deal. I can tell very quickly when I am up against skilled opponents or not. Just by the way they move across the map. I'll tell you guys what. I'll let you in on the "BIG SECRET". The thing that the really good players and teams don't like to talk about very much on the forums:
Tactics Matters
Yea. The really good teams are just happy to let everyone prattle on about weapon stats and chase "Flavors of the Month". Let all these guys keep the idea in their head that all they have to do is find the right weapon config and they will be gold. That this game can be won on a spread sheet.
All that does count to an extent. But knowing how to actually move your mech around the field, coordinating with your team, and being able to predict your opponents counts for so much more. I can field an entire 8 man team in hunchbacks with AC/5s and LRM10 launchers (to pick to "bad" weapons on a sub-optimum chassis) against an entire cheese build team and win if half or more of that cheese build team turns to chase the first hunchback they see on a flank. Or stumbles around the map crossing poor terrain and never committing to a tactical approach.
The problem this game has right now, is when you have 2 teams that get all of that above. Then build optimization comes into it. But even then, it is not THE single deciding factor.
Competitive play in games will always boil down to making the best possible choice given the game mechanics and core game play. it does not matter what type of computer game it is, because its not about the game, its about human nature. The game really does not matter, people will always seek whatever advantage they can. Just like in WoT, MWO will basically boil down to min/max teams in Clan Wars, with specific mechs and loadouts being the only thing used.
For the player who asked why people do not play in the tournaments now, the fact is simple. Many people want MWO to be more then what it can potentially be. Right now its a fun stompy robot game, but a large group of people who like the IP want to actually play in a a BT/MW universe, with more then just pew pew shooting. People want to be the Merc company, or feel loyalty to specific houses, we want to see an epic universe unfold, for us to run around stomping each other to death in. Sadly that will never happen, as the most we will see is a static web browser map coupled with what we have now, ala world of tanks. To be honest, this is why i think MWO will most likely fail, to many groups want to many different things.
Last but not least there is no such thing as esports, it does not exist except in the minds of individuals who think that pressing a key on a keyboard, or having some minimal reflex action enables a hobby or pastime to be called a sport. sports actually revolve around doing something more then eating a pizza and drinking a case of monster while you fight to the death in some electronic non reality . The naming is currently nothing more then a marketing ploy, and like always the lemmings rush in to try to validate what they like to do as something more then what it actually is.
Last but not least there is no such thing as esports, it does not exist except in the minds of individuals who think that pressing a key on a keyboard, or having some minimal reflex action enables a hobby or pastime to be called a sport. sports actually revolve around doing something more then eating a pizza and drinking a case of monster while you fight to the death in some electronic non reality . The naming is currently nothing more then a marketing ploy, and like always the lemmings rush in to try to validate what they like to do as something more then what it actually is.
Says the guy who is completely unaware of the training, practice, and lifestyle of 90% of the top E-sports participants.
Every time I hear the word "competitive" and "MWO" in the same sentence (let alone the same paragraph) I shutter a little bit. The game has no real diversity in it's core playing mechanics, as MIN/MAX'ing is the defining line between victory and defeat. Here are some issues that make it so, and combined, kill all notion of a competitive game in the future. (PGI states most of them are "competitive" gamers, but their product says otherwise.)
The issues:
- weapon convergence -
When every equipped weapon, at any speed, and while in motion, manage to pin point area's for damage calculation regardless of range, you end up with high damage, low duration games. MAX'ing as we all know it in the game. You are punished for trying to "round out" builds, and rewarded for "boating". The only real counter to the said issue is another MAX'd player, with the opposite characteristics. I.E. PPC boat vs SRM boat. Arguably, both DO have defined "weaknesses" but the issue isn't IF you can kill these builds, it's HOW can you, the player, MAXIMIZE on the opponents "weaknesses". A well rounded mech (which in theory do very well, like the M4 carbine), say CN-9A will not stand a chance at any range vs. a SRM boat, concerning its far range "rounded" build isn't strong enough to kill or even soften the opponent at that given range, and most certainly will die when the opponent closes in (which he will).
PGI has "tried" to address this issue by doubling armor, making fights more "enjoyable" and making games longer... but In fact it did the opposite. Now "rounded" builds have absolutely NO chance to make ANY difference at ANY range in ANY way. Now mechs with said "weaknesses" are x2 more durable to a "rounded" mechs arsenal, meaning unless you are also packing the equivalent fire power, you wont be doing much in those 2 minutes of game play.
IF weapons had a more realistic convergence system in place, we could see how stock variants and trials can be VERY effective, even if used for competitive play, but alas convergence is "working as intended" with no competitive edge unless your MAX'ing.
- Equipment -
Like some of the biggest E-Sport games (Starcraft in paticular) you will notice upgrades and how they beifit you if invested apon (like the siege tanks siege mode). It isn't necessarily game breaking if you do not chose to invest in those tech upgrades, in particular because with every tech advance, your opponent can use his tech advances to effectively counter your tech. I'll stress again, you can still win WITHOUT these tech upgrades, because they have a equal counter-able property.
In MWO you have a few upgrades that are MANDATORY in order to be "competitive". Here are a few.
Endo-Steel Chassis - reduces tonnage to fix more fire power. Counter - WAS Repair-Re-arm, now NONE, it just gives you 100% obligation to invest in it, as there is no downside.
Double Heatsinks - as implied as is, makes engine HS VERY effective. Counter - WAS Repair-Re-Arm, now NONE. If you're a ballistics mech, you dont need anymore HS other than the ones provided by the engine, and if your boating PPC's you NEED DHS. With the "coolant-flush" now in play, you can max weapons slots, ENDO-STEEL, even FF armor, and rely on your flush to cool you off with out waisting tonnages on extra HS's, or space.
ECM - Beating a dead horse with this one, you know what it does. Counter - another ECM (PPC's do not counter ECM, as the effects do not last long enough to un-obsolete the weapon systems it disables just by being around, and TAG does not counter the way it cuts off your location to friendly units and it does not un-obsolete the weapon systems it disables). As with ECM it becomes a slug fest of AC and lasers. With the weapon convergence making it's real debut here, this is where the uncompetitive MAX'ing really shines. the only way to tip the scales of these MAX'ing wars is to posses MORE ECM in order to use the Weapon systems ECM nullifies. The REAL ISSUE is there is NOTHING other than another ECM that can equally counter this piece of equipment. making it must have for a competitive match, as it is the 1,000 ton weight on the scale of balance.
BAP, AMS, and the Command Console provide little to no benefit. A rock side can do a lot more than what these can provide. really.
- Arsenal -
Don't deny it. There are weapons in this game that actually HURT you more than HELP you.... its backwards, I know, making multiple chasis NOT USEABLE for competitive play. Like the 4 ballistic cicada. If MG's aren't worth mounting, switch them with AC2's.... now you you're only effectively using 2 of the 4 weapon slots granted, making it the weakest of your variants, it's not MAX'ing in anything, so competitively it is worthless.
In competitive play, everything must be viable in some way, shape or form, but in MWO, the line is few and far between. It's awful.... and I dont see a competitive future for a product as this.
The problem is that they made all the weapons fire too damn fast in MWO. Now there is no drawbacks to boating and alphaing because I can just wait 2 secs for me to shoot again. If the weapons had a reload time of 10 secs, people would be cycling the weapons more because you don't want to sit there for 10 secs waiting for your weapons to reload, also make long range weapons ineffective when close ranged. PPCs should do NO damage below 90 meters, not reduced damage from 90 to 0.
Look at the early preview video of this game. The weapons fired slower, they felt powerful, environment was cool, mechs moved slower. This game is not that.
Edited by Natasha Kerensky, 08 April 2013 - 07:49 AM.
Says the guy who is completely unaware of the training, practice, and lifestyle of 90% of the top E-sports participants.
I went to a Call of Duty "esports" event so my wife could play this weekend. I assure you, none of the kids there ever have done anything remotely resembling sports in their lifetime.
eta: and they all drank energy drinks and ate pizza and other fast food
Last but not least there is no such thing as esports, it does not exist except in the minds of individuals who think that pressing a key on a keyboard, or having some minimal reflex action enables a hobby or pastime to be called a sport. sports actually revolve around doing something more then eating a pizza and drinking a case of monster while you fight to the death in some electronic non reality . The naming is currently nothing more then a marketing ploy, and like always the lemmings rush in to try to validate what they like to do as something more then what it actually is.
I went to a Call of Duty "esports" event so my wife could play this weekend. I assure you, none of the kids there ever have done anything remotely resembling sports in their lifetime.
eta: and they all drank energy drinks and ate pizza and other fast food
Well your one piece of anecdotal evidence is certainly convincing... except I have no idea what "event" you went to, if it was local or amateur hour or what. Sc2, WoW Arena, Halo, and top tier esports player certainly don't fit your stereotypes, not if they're advancing.
Natasha Kerensky, on 08 April 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:
The problem is that they made all the weapons fire too damn fast in MWO. Now there is no drawbacks to boating and alphaing because I can just wait 2 secs for me to shoot again. If the weapons had a reload time of 10 secs, people would be cycling the weapons more because you don't want to sit there for 10 secs waiting for your weapons to reload, also make long range weapons ineffective when close ranged. PPCs should do NO damage below 90 meters, not reduced damage from 90 to 0.
Look at the early preview video of this game. The weapons fired slower, they felt powerful, environment was cool, mechs moved slower. This game is not that.
WOW, I wanna play THAT game!
Damn-- every time I allow myself to step outside of the PGI/MWO "bubble", PGI/MWO just looks more and more ****...
Specifically mentions racing, golf, and fishing. You're behind the times and the world is changing around you. E-sports are at least as athletic as these things, if only because of the coordination and muscle memory.
Anyway, back on topic. So what we can kinda conclude is that whilst competitive play is lacking generally, there are those that have set up third party systems to encourage meaningful, competitive play. And even then it is not too long until PGI show us their systems to encourage meaningful, competitive play.
More the case of you can but lead the horse to the water?
Specifically mentions racing, golf, and fishing. You're behind the times and the world is changing around you. E-sports are at least as athletic as these things, if only because of the coordination and muscle memory.
And they are no more a sport than drinking. For crying out loud I see Poker championships on ESPN!!! There is a difference between competitive and sport. it's like comparing McDonald's to 5 star gourmet dining.
How about we stop arguing dictionary definitions and focus on what people actually want out of the competitive scene instead? Or maybe figure out if people even want one in the first place? Or maybe instead we can weigh down another useful and insightful thread with more blubbering than you'd find in a postnatal sperm whale.
Natasha Kerensky, on 08 April 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:
The problem is that they made all the weapons fire too damn fast in MWO. Now there is no drawbacks to boating and alphaing because I can just wait 2 secs for me to shoot again. If the weapons had a reload time of 10 secs, people would be cycling the weapons more because you don't want to sit there for 10 secs waiting for your weapons to reload, also make long range weapons ineffective when close ranged. PPCs should do NO damage below 90 meters, not reduced damage from 90 to 0.
Look at the early preview video of this game. The weapons fired slower, they felt powerful, environment was cool, mechs moved slower. This game is not that.
if they made cooldowns on weapons slower i can guarantee you that all you would see is HUGE alpha then the player would go back hide and w8 for recharge/cooldown
there would absolutely be no ehm : i fire here one lazor, then oh here fire 2 ppcs, then after 3-4 secs i trigger my SRMS...
hell no if my mech could afford it i would slam in 4 PPC... get in sight ALPHA go back and stay hidden for those 10 seconds
if you think increasing time would help it would do the exact oposite what you think
if they wanted weapons to chainfire... well only thing that now i can think of is make... ehm max mech heat treshhold hmmm 20 with no way to increase it and retain heat from weapons
but generally alphaing is best way to do ... go in take precise aim alpha and hide -> you will take fewer hits, you deal most dmg into one section and you will have time to prepare for next shot
Okay sure, but this is exactly what the competitive side of a game like mechwarrior will always become. I don't see any purpose to these complaints....? It's like complaining that in a game like Magic: the gathering people use the best combinations of cards to win instead of the ****** cards. That's just what it is, if you don't like it you should stick to single player.
Keep in mind that at times when Magic the Gathering had extremely narrow options for viable decks in competitive play the competitive scene suffered a very large drop in the number of players that entered tournament play until they addressed the problem. That drop in the number of players in the competitive scene affected sales for the game to the point where Wizards of the Coast was forced to really look at the issue and address the problem to turn around the drop in sales. The same thing does and will happen in any competitive environment. If it's too narrow and repetitive, it wears thin quickly. Players become bored and move on to something more varied, diverse and entertaining.
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KingCobra, on 08 April 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:
