1386 replies to this topic

[Terror Teddy]

ICEFANG13, on 09 April 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Did you know they work correctly in testing though? All the videos showing MGs at the most viable, and that's when it works the best, and it still just sucks doesn't it?

Hmm...could they want to wait until ballistic state rewind is in and collect data from that to see how the weapon works then? Perhaps we actually DO 80% less damage than we should - it sure as hell FEELS useless when i cant even fight another light mech.

[Xelah]

ICEFANG13, on 09 April 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

Did you know they work correctly in testing though? All the videos showing MGs at the most viable, and that's when it works the best, and it still just sucks doesn't it?

They're closer to working properly in testing grounds. You fire something like 9.08 shots per second.

[ICEFANG13]

Terror Teddy, on 09 April 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Hmm...could they want to wait until ballistic state rewind is in and collect data from that to see how the weapon works then? Perhaps we actually DO 80% less damage than we should - it sure as hell FEELS useless when i cant even fight another light mech.

Unlikely, I suspect they'd like us to shut up and accept it.

Xelah, on 09 April 2013 - 10:39 PM, said:

They're closer to working properly in testing grounds. You fire something like 9.08 shots per second.

Ah another 10% means those 60 long Atlas killing videos will only be 54 seconds now.

[Xelah]

ICEFANG13, on 09 April 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Ah another 10% means those 60 long Atlas killing videos will only be 54 seconds now.

works as intended.

[MadPanda]

I think this thread needs more pages and fast. PGI might think it's not that bad as we haven't even reached page 20 yet. So here's a troll bait for everyone:

I think MG's are fine.

[Critical Fumble]

MadPanda, on 09 April 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

I think MG's are fine.

Stockholm's syndrome. Working as intended.

[Th0rsten]

Please buff the mg and just drop this crit approach. It does NOT make the mg useful. There are plenty good posts that explain this. I just wanted to add my voice to the choire to increase the chance this won't be ignored...

[Kmieciu]

Terror Teddy, on 09 April 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Hmm...could they want to wait until ballistic state rewind is in and collect data from that to see how the weapon works then? Perhaps we actually DO 80% less damage than we should - it sure as hell FEELS useless when i cant even fight another light mech.

As far as I know the machineguns already use state rewind. The patch notes stated that the HSR works for lasers, machineguns and flamers. That would mean that those weapons do not have travel time, and the flying bullets we see are just a special effect. They all probably are treated as a beam weapon, but the machinegun "beam" is constant, and uses cone of fire.

The same is true for AMS: it has 2 DPS 90 range 200 max range and 100 speed, but only the range and DPS are taken into account while calculating the number of missiles destroyed. (for example 1 LRM has 1 HP so the AMS can destroy 4 LRM missiles before they hit the mech, up to 8 LRMs if the missiles are targeted at someone behind the AMS user). The AMS bullets don't actually interact with missiles, it's all calculated server side.

PS. How come nobody is arguing against the machinegun spread? I thought this is a skill based game, and you people did not like cone of fire?

Edited by Kmieciu, 10 April 2013 - 01:51 AM.

[stjobe]

Kmieciu, on 10 April 2013 - 01:37 AM, said:

The same is true for AMS: it has 2 DPS 90 range 200 max range and 100 speed

It's sad when the AMS has 5 times the DPS of the regular MG.

Edit: Actually, the AMS (according to smurfy-net, who datamines the game files) has a damage of 2.0 and a rate of fire of 30... Way, way, way more than the regular MG (0.04 damage and a RoF of 10).

Edited by stjobe, 10 April 2013 - 02:03 AM.

[Kmieciu]

As I've already said in one of the closed threads:

Because of the spread, at 90 meter range the bullets hit at least 3 components while fighting against another light mech. Using 4 machineguns it takes 40 seconds to destroy a stock Commando on testing grounds (16 armor 16 internals). While aiming at the center torso, you destroy the side torsos first.

In comparison, 4 Small Lasers destroy the same Commando in about 5 seconds (3 salvos = 36 pinpoint damage). In testing grounds there is a bug that makes the lasers start their recharge as soon as they start firing, when in online mode the recharge starts when the beam stops. So, in an online game it would take 6.75 seconds. (2 full cycles + 1 beam).

So while fighting small mechs @ 90 meters 1 Small laser is equal to 6 machineguns. In a fight between a Jenner with 6 Small Lasers and a hypothetical light mech armed with 36 machineguns I put my money on the Jenner, because the pilot only has to aim for 0.75 seconds and then it can dodge and torso twist for 2.25 seconds, while the other mech has to constantly aim at the Jenner. Not to mention that 18 tonnes of weapons would make a light mech rather slow.

I realize small lasers spread damage due to movement, but a skilled player can put the whole 0.75 beam on the same location. No amount of skill can overcome the machine gun spread against other light mechs.

Edited by Kmieciu, 10 April 2013 - 05:56 AM.

[Dremster]

Some of you seem to have the wrong idea on how to aim machine guns. They are hitscan you don't need to lead with them, just ignore the stream of bullets and keep the reticle on target.

[Harmin]

stjobe, on 09 April 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Looking forward to more reports from your 5K adventures. It'll be interesting to see if it'll be as painful as mine were.

I did a handful more games last night. Right now my spider adventures are ....

11 games played, 5 won, 6 lost.
3 kills 4 deaths

One game I was stupidly running way ahead of my team thinking I could harrass the enemy from their far outside flank. Naturally my 133kph spider was eaten by 150kph ravens. Stupid me.

Another death occured was when I was the last mech standing with everybody converging on me. Nothing can be done there.

I did get a machine gun kill, but it wasn't a solo kill.

I have half the basics unlocked so far. I'll try to get anchor turn unlocked next evening.

-Armin

[skamage]

Find it weird their argument is always that the MG would be OP because of its no heat generation. It's terrible now without the heat generation, but here is a novel idea....up the numbers on its dps and if it is OP then wait for it.....give it heat like every other weapon in the game.

[Solkar]

A ballistic weapon should have SOME benefit compared to the corresponding energy weapon since its limitation is ammo.

(Gauss vs. PPC... low ammo and heavier, compared to unlimited shots and hotter)
(ACs vs. Lasers... these are mostly balanced, ammo, range, weight, rate of fire, crit slots, and heat)

The basically balanced weapons above mean you can succeed with either set and people actually have choices.


Now look at machine guns vs. small lasers (the two weapons in that weight and range class.)

MG is half a ton, PLUS 1 ton of ammo and does 0.03 damage per shot
Small Laser is half a ton and does 3 damage per shot... 100 times greater!

Yes, MGs fire faster than small lasers, but not 100 times faster. Yes, MGs crit more, but not 100 times more. Small lasers are so far above MGs that IF people had a choice they would always take small lasers (hard points don't always give a choice.)

**Increase MG damage to 0.5 damage per shot and since you can fire them faster than small **lasers you will have very similar damage outputs, but be balanced due to no heat, but limited **ammo.

[xenoglyph]

skamage, on 10 April 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

Find it weird their argument is always that the MG would be OP because of its no heat generation. It's terrible now without the heat generation, but here is a novel idea....up the numbers on its dps and if it is OP then wait for it.....give it heat like every other weapon in the game.

this.

[DemonRaziel]

Solkar, on 10 April 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

A ballistic weapon should have SOME benefit compared to the corresponding energy weapon since its limitation is ammo.

...

Now look at machine guns vs. small lasers (the two weapons in that weight and range class.)

MG is half a ton, PLUS 1 ton of ammo and does 0.03 damage per shot
Small Laser is half a ton and does 3 damage per shot... 100 times greater!

Yes, MGs fire faster than small lasers, but not 100 times faster. Yes, MGs crit more, but not 100 times more. Small lasers are so far above MGs that IF people had a choice they would always take small lasers (hard points don't always give a choice.)

I am getting the impression that they balanced MGs with Flamers in mind.

Harmin, on 10 April 2013 - 03:51 AM, said:

I did a handful more games last night. Right now my spider adventures are ....

11 games played, 5 won, 6 lost.
3 kills 4 deaths

One game I was stupidly running way ahead of my team thinking I could harrass the enemy from their far outside flank. Naturally my 133kph spider was eaten by 150kph ravens. Stupid me.

Another death occured was when I was the last mech standing with everybody converging on me. Nothing can be done there.

I did get a machine gun kill, but it wasn't a solo kill.

I have half the basics unlocked so far. I'll try to get anchor turn unlocked next evening.

-Armin

From what I am reading here, you are not trying to break your keyboard on your head and eat your mouse after every match, therefore I assume you are getting a lot more enjoyment from playing the 5K than I did some time ago.

[Kmieciu]

People overlook the fact that a fully upgraded Jenner-F with 6 small lasers has can fire for 95 seconds before overheating.

In 95 seconds a mech with 6 machineguns uses 6*10*95= 5700 bullets.

And with 4 Small Lasers and 17 DHS it will never overheat (heat generation: 2.67 heat/s heat dissipation: 3.43 heat/s)

Edited by Kmieciu, 10 April 2013 - 05:07 AM.

[Losvar]

Throwing rocks at mechs, is actually more effective than MGs are right now, same goes for flamers.

[ErimXul]

I would love for my 5K to be something other than a 5V with an ERLL, less jjs, and tickle guns. And I would love the mg to be something more meaningful to the enemy than something to ignore or an easy kill. I can get kills and do damage with the little guy but almost all I do is from the ERLL.

Damage breakdown:
At 49 matches and 55.69% accuracy my damage per match per machine gun is at a huge 9.2, that is 36.8 for all 4.
At 93 matches and 92.13% accuracy my damage per match per 1 ERLL(only own 1) 142.3

That is almost 4 times the damage for only 1 ton more than my 4 mg and 2 tons of ammo. Something seems off about that. Even accounting for accuracy it would still be at be at least double damage for 1 ton more and lets face it, heat isn't an issue with double heatsinks and only 1 ERLL! Also, I am pretty sure that beam wasn't on target the entire 92.13% of the time, showing again a huge disparity between weaponry for comparable weight, heat and I'll leave range out of it.

edit: first post btw, had to say something about mgs.

Edited by ErimXul, 10 April 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

When you simple increase the damage of the machine gun...the moment will come when some people start to complain that they are OP - because some kids are running a Cicada with MachineGuns and Flammers or the JagerMech etc.

Because i read the comparison with the small laser... make the machine gun similar.
0.5sec burst fire. after the burst "weapon" cooling time.
The 2 medium laser over a single large laser have trade 1dmg for 1heat. The large weight compensates for range.
So the machine gun does 0 heat and cause 1-1.5 dmg less than the laser.
finished