1386 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Well, as this is still the MG Feedback Thread (A new one would be idea, i think, but for fear that the moronic arguments about it being an infantry weapon would just be repeated uselessly) my thoughts of the changes after some use:

It's better than it was, but it's still garbage. Spread+low projective speed+need for 100% ToT result in far less than the advertised DPS, and the advertised DPS isn't good. It'll be months before the MG is looked at again though, I imagine. At least it's not as bad as it was, so those horrible MG variants are now just bad MG variants.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I still think the performance of a Machine Gun should match that of a Small Laser.

I've tried MG's a bit and I've seen others try them, and sure they can disable weapons and such, but I don't feel it's enough yet.

Lowering the ammo count per ton and then increasing the damage so that you can still do somewhere 150 to 160 damage per ton of MG ammo would be all that's needed at this point.

[SweetWarmIce]

I think Machine Guns should be buffed again to 0.1 damage per bullet and bring ammo per ton down to 1500. That's 150 damage per ton and 1 DPS per MG assuming perfect conditions. Spread and range stops them from being broken. Their crit-seeking is still redundant.

[stjobe]

SweetWarmIce, on 26 May 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

I think Machine Guns should be buffed again to 0.1 damage per bullet and bring ammo per ton down to 1500. That's 150 damage per ton and 1 DPS per MG assuming perfect conditions. Spread and range stops them from being broken. Their crit-seeking is still redundant.

0.1 damage might be enough - if the spread was removed. With the spread still in there, it likely needs 0.15 to 0.2 damage.

Spread reduces the effective DPS by roughly 25%, and the continuous-fire mechanic reduces it further by about 25%, meaning the theoretical DPS needs to be roughly double what you want the weapon to be able to produce in the field.

When the MG was 0.4 DPS on paper, I had an effective DPS of 0.2 (and the 50 or so people I polled averaged out to about 0.23), and now that the MG has 0.8 DPS on paper, I find my effective DPS is about 0.4.

[MustrumRidcully]

1) You're only playing a support role if your support is useful and gives your team an advantage compared to playing any other role. UNless you count helping the opponent by running an ineffective config as "support" (for them).
2) This thread is a balance thread and is in the wrong subforum.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sir Ratburge, on 25 May 2013 - 07:19 PM, said:

Sorry if its a bit late

The update to buff the damage and range of the machine guns although a good step forward (it shows the devs are at least reading the topics on the forums... but not the content)

The damage is still not enough, making the range of the weapon better also means the spread is more and the bullets are so damned slow you either end up missing or just pepper the target with lots of low damage shots... lowering the crits is also a terrible idea.

so essentially in a nutshell we still have a short range,wide spread/inaccurate, ammo chewing, low damage useless weapon that still doesn't even compare to a small laser <---- which has better accuracy,tight shots, range,damage and the added benefit of unlimited ammo which means lower tonnage.

Does it make sense?! I love the look and sound of the machine gun but its just useless. I really wouldnt mind if the accuracy and spread was so bad if the damage was at least decent.

you do realize the bullets are hitscan, yes? The visuals aren't, but the actual damage is.

[Lord of All]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 May 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

you do realize the bullets are hitscan, yes? The visuals aren't, but the actual damage is.

They're using hitscan for ballistics?

[Sephlock]

Don't worry guys, we'll get another insufficient tweak in a few months...

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord of All, on 27 May 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

They're using hitscan for ballistics?

only the MG. HAve done so since CB.

[FupDup]

Lord of All, on 27 May 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

They're using hitscan for ballistics?

Only MGs. Notice how MGs got HSR in the same patch that gave it to lasers, and thus earlier than normal ballistics?

[stjobe]

Lord of All, on 27 May 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

They're using hitscan for ballistics?

As the others have said, only the MG. It's easy enough to verify:
1. Drop in a MG-equipped 'mech in the training grounds.
2. Position yourself 200m from a target.
3. Fire your MGs at the target.
4. Notice that the target takes damage immediately, not after the 2 seconds that a 100m/s projectile would need to travel.

So basically, the MG is implemented as a laser with 10 damage ticks per second and zero cooldown.

[Kmieciu]

stjobe, on 27 May 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

As the others have said, only the MG. It's easy enough to verify:
1. Drop in a MG-equipped 'mech in the training grounds.
2. Position yourself 200m from a target.
3. Fire your MGs at the target.
4. Notice that the target takes damage immediately, not after the 2 seconds that a 100m/s projectile would need to travel.

So basically, the MG is implemented as a laser with 10 damage ticks per second and zero cooldown.

People who read patch notes thoroughly might have noticed that HSR phase 1 (Host State Rewind) affected lasers, machineguns and flamers, because they all use the same mechanics.

HSR phase 2 affected PPCs, autocannons, LBX10, but not the SRMs (what's the difference between LBX and SRM mechanics?)

Anyway - back to machineguns. I've seen SDR-5K and SDR-5D working as a team. 5D had 3 MPL, 5K had 4 MGs and an AMS. They both survived a match: 5K did about 30 damage (3 assists) while 5D did 300 (3 kills).

Machineguns need tighter spread and more bullets per second (or more damage per bullet & less ammo per tonne). If I remember correctly, changing the ammo per tonne for autocannons caused a widespread mechlab corruption during closed beta, and required a full wipe. So it's better not to mess with it and just tweak the DPS.

[stjobe]

Kmieciu, on 28 May 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

(what's the difference between LBX and SRM mechanics?)

Splash damage. That, and/or flight paths (missiles have different flight paths than the ballistic trajectories)

And yes, the MG and Flamers are implemented as energy weapons, and the PPC is implemented as a ballistic weapon.

I have no idea why they decided to implement the MG as an energy weapon; but I can guess. Either they had trouble with the rate of fire, or they thought it would save them time to piggyback the MG on the energy weapon code.

[Pinselborste]

MGs, Flamers and the LBX need a redesign.

the MG for example could work like a small autocanon without spread, with the projectile speed of the AC2 and working as a ballistic instead of a laser, with 0.25 damage, 0.25 cooldown and 600 ammo per ton would.

that would cause it to have the same damage per ammo ton as the other ballistics, it would be less bullets per second wich means the server will get stressed less, and it would make have the same dps as a small laser and you would be able to actually use those 1 dps.

[Bagheera]

So, the new MGs, not much better than the old MGs unless you can boat them. And even boating them they are pretty marginal. The problem is with the core concept. PGI wants them to be "crit seekers," but because of the current state of things, it is vastly more effective to just blast an exposed section into oblivion with your high damage weapons than it is to spam MG bullets into them hopping for crit damage.

Always. Try it for yourself. Grab a ballistic mech, mount 1 large caliber weapon and a bunch of machine guns. Then alternate. Try using just MGs on an enemy with exposed internals, then use your large caliber weapon. You'll see what I mean.

Also, conceptually, the MG suffers the same problem that every weapon that emphasizes DPS has in this game. (and I have been saying since closed beta that DPA is the number you want in MW:O, not DPS, one only has to look at the number of "high alpha is ruining my day" threads to understand what I mean) MGs, like an array of AC2s require that you maintain a constant facing to your opponent for a long period of time. So Fire/Twist/Fire/Twist is not an option. We all know what this means tactically.

So the MG is in a strange place in current MW:O mechanics. I'm not sure how to resolve the machine gun issue. I have this feeling it's just destined to be a troll weapon.

Also, 6MGs really aren't that mighty at all.

Edited by Bagheera, 28 May 2013 - 07:12 AM.

[Naimes]

As ineffectual as they are I cant deny the visceral feeling of firing them especially in mass

[Deathlike]

Oh goody.. finally Garth "cares" about something months too late:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2394592

The man cannot argue balance to save his life (see PPC+Coolant references and MG being "as powerful" as a medium laser as being OP somehow).

Edited by Deathlike, 28 May 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[Chopsaw]

I just killed a Trebuchet 90% by myself with 6 MG's and 2 ER LS's....It took all 4K of my MG ammo and I was nearly cored at the end of it, but I got 'im!

[Ingvay]

I have a 4 MG spider and when the rest of the team is fully engaged I can get a kill or two from unloading into enemy mechs backs. Wish MG still did a little bit more damage, but they have their place.

[HammerSwarm]

I did some math in my spread sheets. using the current machine gun stats.
My machine gun with 1 ton of ammo in theoretical PGI conditions had the following stats

Min DPS: 0.80
Max DPS: 3.69
Min/200s: 160.00
Max/200s: 737.24 (probably 750 being the target damage in a much larger sample size than 10,000)

That is at 10 shots per second, I calculated max as what you would do vs. internal components

A medium laser in comparisson


DPS: 1.25
Damage/200s: 250

It's not as terrible as it once was.

The 3 ML Spider 5D without ECS being a factor does 3.75 D/S, Where as a Spider 5k with 4mg and 1 ML does 4.45 up to ~16.

This would be great if not for the limiting factors of the machine gun.

• Remove the cone of fire completely
  
• Reduce the rate of fire to 5 shots/second and double the damage stats (half the ammo)
  
• Remove the hit scan element and make it a proper ballistic with a rational projectile speed.

Then a bump from .16 to .2 would ice it and make up for being ammo dependent, 100% ToT, and shorter in range.

You're getting close PGI we just need a little more to get us all the way there.