1386 replies to this topic

[ohtochooseaname]

IMO, the best way to balance the machine gun is to make it so that criticals actually hit internal structure once everything else in that component is already destroyed. This would give them significant dps vs internal structure as well as internals, making them much more useful, and providing them with a unique niche.

[focuspark]

Does this mean the devs realize that Machine Guns suck or does it mean the devs are whispering "shut up and go away"?

That said, MG should not be reliant on the lame critical hit bonus thing they have now. Remove it. Make MG 1.2 DPS vs armor and 4.0 DPS vs internals (including components). Change done, useful, situational weapon worth putting on a mech.

[Orzorn]

Deathlike, on 09 April 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Challenge to PGI:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2206947

I presented a similar challenge to PGI in my thread (A refutation and a proposal). If PGI wants us to play the game and not play spreadsheet warrior, then I can easily say, as others have said, that machine guns perform even worse in game than on paper.

Its not fun to play and its absolutely ineffective.

[FireSlade]

What I would like to see is a slight buff to machine guns but only in the sense that it hurts unarmored sections. I would love the developers to open a discussion with the community like they did with the ecm topic and take the suggestions into consideration; yes I know that it seems like they just ignored us since they didn't make a single change to it, that we know of or can see. My suggestion to them would be to forget the TT machine gun, keeping it to that will never make it usable since we'll never see infantry or armored infantry. My second suggestion would be to increase the bullets travel velocity to something reasonable like 800+m/s. My third suggestion would be purely aesthetics, but I would like to see tracers that you can see so that you can actually see where the bullet stream is heading/hitting and the machine guns need new models to them to make them look less "wussy".


Current



New

Yes BattleTech has the Gatling Gun (look under brands)


Another suggestion but not necessarily towards the machine gun is to have the internal components actually have a negative impact when lets say an actuator is destroyed. Maybe after this the machine gun will be fine against a mech and not be a waste of space and tons.



P.S. I wish we had these

The 30mm Depleted Uranium GAU-8 Avenger Gatling Cannon

[RealityCheck]

First off, thank you Viterbi for restoring order in this topic as well as restoring my hope for this issue I so strongly advocate.

That being said, I am one of those die-hard Cicada 3C pilots. I absolutely love the mech. Here is my setup:

Machine Guns x4
Large Pulse Laser x1

~124 kph (with speed tweak)
Nearly maxed out armor

Obviously, the large pulser laser does all the "grunt" work. I've actually gotten a few kills with the mgs (thanks mostly to the Large Pulse Laser: CT kills). Also, I generally destory at least a couple components (although I must note that its the entire section going not the a individual component. Again this is the Large Pulse Laser at work here). I hope its apparent the machine guns are in the design as secondary weapons and the Large Pulse Laser being the primary weapon. The reason I advocate a buff to machine guns is so I can have a more worthwhile SECONDARY WEAPON.

Its as simple as that and hopefully a logical and polite arguement for a performance improvement.

RealityCheck

[LackofCertainty]

A lot of the earlier posts in this thread seem to be coming from the mentally unstable people that think an MG should do 10 DPS or something equally ridiculous, so I'll layout what I want for MG's:

.8 dps. (.08 damage per bullet)
slight nerf to the crit bonus (so that they remain about as effective at criting as they are now)
Ballistic max range falloff (currently MG's behave like energy weapons for range, so they only work out to 180m instead of 270m)
Slight reduction in spread (so they can be used effectively out to at least 90m)

Once components all get their tweaks for health, I think this will leave the MG as a fairly solid weapon rather than a waste of tonnage. Also, I would very strongly recommend that devs take another look at ammo bins only having a 10% chance to explode when destroyed via crit. The rarity of ammo explosions: makes crit seekers less usefull, makes CASE a waste of tonnage/space, and XL's a helluva lot more attractive than they already are.

Edited by LackofCertainty, 09 April 2013 - 09:45 AM.

[Alilua]

Machine guns need so much love it's not funny. Only thing that works for them is the firing sound.

Negative aspects of using them now are:
near imaginary damage to armor
near imaginary damage to internals
weight
use ammo
short range
slow projectile movement
line of sight weapon
continuous fire weapon

positives are:
make a neat sound
less weight than ac2

What can be done to fix them?
I suggest a simple damage increase, maybe even a bonus damage to the head region or internals. If both are implemented we could get a dynamic where lights can risk aiming for a headshot but have to put themselves in harms way by facing a mech head on. The general damage increase will make them feel like a weapon instead of a joke. Chances are people will miss and damage will be spread out. Give it a use to have the weight of the gun + the weight and risk of using ammo.

[Nihtgenga]

focuspark, on 09 April 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Does this mean the devs realize that Machine Guns suck or does it mean the devs are whispering "shut up and go away"?

Maybe both of it at the same time, at least a bit.

Face it: We're doing Beta, and PGI wants money out of the game. So, neither discussions about such balancing issues (can easily be done in the famous "last five minutes", as it doesn't need much time), nor perfect game balancing at all (they probably want to reserve a few very effective gadgets to refitting by MC only, similar to the hero mechs) is too high on the priority list of problems to be solved.
Do not misunderstand that as a simple "**** you, PGI"-rant. It is just a try to see the business project perspective, that they have to have in mind to get all this being commercially viable, not just fun. Calm down a bit, do not expect changes by the minute, and do not expect content, that will be all-out ultra-high-competitive without investing at least a few MC or massive grinds. Nothing to whine about, as long as they do not overstress it.

It for sure is worth for the devs to implement official surveys, as already put out as an idea for quick, consolidated, swear-word-free and condensed to the main point feedback. Additional suggestions can still be made and put into newer surveys. That would cook down all the long threads to the MG balancing to the "important three":
1. Why has it to be changed?
2. What has to be changed exactly?
3. Which other adjustments need to be made to keep it on-line with the rest of the concept?
Figures from the survey then show the "sweet spot" according to the community.

So, finally, my verdict on MG in MW:O...
1. MGs are currently useless, and do not contribute to gaming experience, so they are a waste of development time.
2. Buff it to a damage level, where it roughly conforms to the description in the universe (= small damage, but still enough to not be just neglected when being fired at with it). My gut feeling would suggest getting it to roughly 1 DPS.
3. Adjust the damage potential per ton of ammo to be in similar range like the other ballistics.

[Mechteric]

What if they got not only a crit bonus against internal components, but also a damage bonus against internal armor? Say 2x damage against internal structure only?

This way they'd still not be useful against armored components as intended, but would be more viable to crit seek AND destroy once past the armor.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 09 April 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[Deathlike]

CapperDeluxe, on 09 April 2013 - 09:52 AM, said:

What if they got not only a crit bonus against internal components, but also a damage bonus against internal armor? Say 2x damage against internal structure only?

This way they'd still not be useful against armored components as intended, but would be more viable to crit seek AND destroy once past the armor.

You are changing the weapon to be "mech finisher", but you'd still have to peel the layers of the armor to get there...

On a Spider-5K, your best weapon is a LL or a LPL. That would still take a while.

I could care less about the crit bonus... and care a lot more about being usable ALL of the time, when the situation comes up to use an MG.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 April 2013 - 09:57 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Just a random note - Hayashi is good people. He has also shown genuine interest in balancing the game and expressed dissatisfaction with the game balance. I believe his only motive here was really doing the moderator job for our benefit, not to hide the truth.

[Pale Jackal]

I stand by upping the machine gun DPS to 1.0, or maybe 0.8. Does the MG produce no heat? Yes, that's true, but would a 5 small laser Spider be that scary? No, and a 5 small laser Spider probably won't face serious heat issues either.

Keep in mind the machine gun has to be trained on target 100% of the time to achieve its 1.0 DPS, whereas the small laser does not.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Tickdoff Tank, on 09 April 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Will post again if I get a response.

Garth has sent me a PM, they are aware of our concerns. They have concerns of their own, and they are reasonable. I am hoping for an official response from them, possibly a Command Chair, in the future.

(Garth did NOT say that they are working on a CC post, that is MY hope, but I think it is a reasonable expectation)

[Mechteric]

Deathlike, on 09 April 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

You are changing the weapon to be "mech finisher", but you'd still have to peel the layers of the armor to get there...

On a Spider-5K, your best weapon is a LL or a LPL. That would still take a while.

I could care less about the crit bonus... and care a lot more about being usable ALL of the time, when the situation comes up to use an MG.

But you pretty much already got your answer, they do not want the machine gun to be effective against armor because they don't want a 6 machine gun spider to destroy an Atlas' rear quickly without ever having to worry about heat to put a pause on the shooting. Thats why I think they should keep it that way, but give extra incentive on using it on locations that are on internals already since the current crit seeking behavior still isn't enough to justify it.

[Esplodin]

LackofCertainty, on 09 April 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

A lot of the earlier posts in this thread seem to be coming from the mentally unstable people that think an MG should do 10 DPS or something equally ridiculous, so I'll layout what I want for MG's:

Straw-man fallacy. Never have I seen anyone arguing for 10 DPS. Stop being ridiculous. I'm advocating for the largest DPS I've seen in any thread - 4, and I've not seen anyone argue for more.

LackofCertainty, on 09 April 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

.8 dps. (.08 damage per bullet)
slight nerf to the crit bonus (so that they remain about as effective at criting as they are now)
Ballistic max range falloff (currently MG's behave like energy weapons for range, so they only work out to 180m instead of 270m)
Slight reduction in spread (so they can be used effectively out to at least 90m)

Still useless and not worth loading.

LackofCertainty, on 09 April 2013 - 09:44 AM, said:

Once components all get their tweaks for health, I think this will leave the MG as a fairly solid weapon rather than a waste of tonnage. Also, I would very strongly recommend that devs take another look at ammo bins only having a 10% chance to explode when destroyed via crit. The rarity of ammo explosions: makes crit seekers less usefull, makes CASE a waste of tonnage/space, and XL's a helluva lot more attractive than they already are.

Sometime in the future we will also have cyber-organic organ replacement. That does not mean I can drink relentlessly and destroy my liver in the hopes that one day I can buy an e-liver. Buff the MG now. Crit seek can be tested when all items can be critted and losing an engine disables the mech, and that is not today.

Honestly the immense fear of a spray everywhere, constant on target to get DPS, close enough to smell your BO weapon is just silly. Any weapon system that can be IGNORED WHEN FIRED AT YOU is not one that is working as intended and needs major love. Show me one person that thinks they are fine and I'll show you an assault pilot who is traumatized by 3Ls (ironically that can't mount MG) or one that is exploiting the bug which makes them fire faster.

[DemonRaziel]

Upping the DPS to 0.6 is a bare minimum, though I would suggest going all the way to 0.8 (i.e. doubling the current DPS), if people really believe that the DPS of 1.0 some kind of OP madness.

And if you are under the impression that 180 damage per 1t of ammo is too much, feel free to reduce the ammo/ton to 1000 to set the damage/ton back to 80 - just don't make us shoot the enemy for ages until some observable damage is achieved. At least make it ages/2...

As it is now, this weapon is virtually useless, is a waste of space and tonnage for any build and invalidates low-tonnage balistic hard points heavy chassi.

My 2 CB...

[Bromineberry]

I think I'm the only person, who doesn't care even one bit about machine guns... There is just so much stuff that should get fixed first.

[Critical Fumble]

MustrumRidcully, on 09 April 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:

Just a random note - Hayashi is good people. He has also shown genuine interest in balancing the game and expressed dissatisfaction with the game balance. I believe his only motive here was really doing the moderator job for our benefit, not to hide the truth.

Hayashi posts in the meme thread, of course he's good people.

[Esplodin]

Tickdoff Tank, on 09 April 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

Garth has sent me a PM, they are aware of our concerns. They have concerns of their own, and they are reasonable. I am hoping for an official response from them, possibly a Command Chair, in the future.

(Garth did NOT say that they are working on a CC post, that is MY hope, but I think it is a reasonable expectation)

Sigh. I guess we can only wonder at the reasonable concerns, since you did not post them. They may be reasonable, but this is just supremely frustrating. The very least they could do is post something themselves.

[Orzorn]

Esplodin, on 09 April 2013 - 10:28 AM, said:

Sigh. I guess we can only wonder at the reasonable concerns, since you did not post them. They may be reasonable, but this is just supremely frustrating. The very least they could do is post something themselves.

I'm just not entirely sure what concerns related to buffing machine guns are reasonable. If the concern is that higher machine gun damage means their criting powers are too strong, then the answer is to simply reduce their crit abilities.