137 replies to this topic

[Noobzorz]

aniviron, on 10 April 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

I'll start running back to stop base caps when I stop consistently outdamaging atlases in my RVN-2X. C'mon heavies and assaults, don't have bad aim! Then it wouldn't be "my job" to run run around the map trying so I can sit still in multicolored rectangles.

ITT We have two rounds where we out damage a particularly bad Atlas and decide that role warfare is unimportant.

[Davers]

I was in a Conquest game on Alpine. It was down to 3 on 3. Instead of splitting up and holding the three closest bases, my team (all heavy+ mechs) blobbed up, went to the enemy team's starting point and instead of capping, spent their time trying to snipe their disconnected player. People would rather pad their KDR than win. Thats why people play heavy mechs and say it isn't their job to defend the base. They would rather brag about their damage and kills then brag about winning the game.

[Alistair Winter]

nabechewan, on 10 April 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Wait, really? You want to know why it isn't a good idea for the most heavily equipped mech in a round to leave the front line and sit around the base in the off chance a spider drops by?

Perhaps I exaggerated my point there. But I don't really like leaving the front line in my light mech on the off chance that our base isn't being capped by a couple of Raven 3Ls or Commandos with Streaks, and on the off chance that my PUG team mates are coming back to support me.

It's similar to how a lot of people will spearhead into the enemy to take advantage of a moment where the enemy is spread out and disorganized, only to find out that the rest of the team is still hiding behind the ridge. They inevitably die alone as the enemy consolidate their position, and then the dead player is upset that his team didn't help him.

If it's one thing I've learned from PUGing, then it's not counting on the fact that my team will play the way I want them to, or the way I need them to. I always count on my teammates to do whatever's best for them, and then I adjust my tactics accordingly.

It's also a matter of principle and liberty and not telling other people what to do, unless they're asking me to command them. Maybe the light mechs on my team have LRMs and large lasers, and are ill suited to a duel against enemy Streak-Ravens. Who am I to tell them to go after enemy lights? Maybe the heavy mechs on my team have gauss rifles and PPCs that are better suited for sniping. Who am I to demand that they join me when I charge into the enemy lines? Let other people play however they want.

[nabechewan]

Many times I've watched lights and mediums blow off calls to stop a basecap that only they can respond to. On more than one occasion I've had to take manners into my own hands and trudge all the way back, but my heavy fat-body is just not built for it. The worst is when you're in sight of the base but you just weren't fast enough. Meanwhile, a whole bevy of spiders/ravens/commandos are dancing around taking potshots at some Atlas on the other side of the map.

Edited by nabechewan, 10 April 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[Grayseven]

There is, however, a caveat here.

I just finished a Tourmaline assault where I took my light fast mech the long way around in an effort to determine the enemies location for the main body of heavies.

Much to my surprise I came across a pair of enemy Jagers and a Dragon coming from the opposite direction. I took a few pot shots and high-tailed it back to the main body, reporting that we had 3 heavies coming around for a base run.

Not one single mech came back to engage those mechs. They made it to the base and proceeded to capture it, although I died a valiant but meaningless death trying to prevent three heavies from taking the base all by my lonesome.

This wasn't so far into the advance that the entire team couldn't have RTB'd and confronted these three mechs and someone had the temerity to actually ask (while they were capping) if anyone was going back to base. If you are asking, you'd better be moving back yourself.

Yeah, fast mechs (and not just lights) should move to defend against other lights making a cap run but at the same time an orderly withdrawal by the rest of the team when there are more than just one mech back there means that a good hunk of their mechs can be dealt with while separated from the group and then the team can once again advance.

Unless the entire team is storming the enemy base (another fun tactic, especially when someone decides to defend) everyone should be mindful of what exactly is capturing home base. A light can play tag with another light, but when you get a few fast mediums or a Dragon or two dropping in, that light is going to need some help to guarantee success.

[Jman5]

Quote

Perhaps I exaggerated my point there. But I don't really like leaving the front line in my light mech on the off chance that our base isn't being capped by a couple of Raven 3Ls or Commandos with Streaks, and on the off chance that my PUG team mates are coming back to support me.

Watch the capture rate if you want to know how many people are at your base. 1 mech, 1 mech with cap accel, and 2 mechs all have different capture rates. If you play a light, this is worth taking the time to understand because as you said, you don't want to show up and be surprised by a 2v1.

[Max Power]

Alistair Winter, on 10 April 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Perhaps I exaggerated my point there. But I don't really like leaving the front line in my light mech on the off chance that our base isn't being capped by a couple of Raven 3Ls or Commandos with Streaks, and on the off chance that my PUG team mates are coming back to support me.

It's similar to how a lot of people will spearhead into the enemy to take advantage of a moment where the enemy is spread out and disorganized, only to find out that the rest of the team is still hiding behind the ridge. They inevitably die alone as the enemy consolidate their position, and then the dead player is upset that his team didn't help him.

If it's one thing I've learned from PUGing, then it's not counting on the fact that my team will play the way I want them to, or the way I need them to. I always count on my teammates to do whatever's best for them, and then I adjust my tactics accordingly.

It's also a matter of principle and liberty and not telling other people what to do, unless they're asking me to command them. Maybe the light mechs on my team have LRMs and large lasers, and are ill suited to a duel against enemy Streak-Ravens. Who am I to tell them to go after enemy lights? Maybe the heavy mechs on my team have gauss rifles and PPCs that are better suited for sniping. Who am I to demand that they join me when I charge into the enemy lines? Let other people play however they want.

Yeah, pugs can be unreliable. The only thing you can do is communicate the situation and hope they respond. Of course, it would help if the chat log didn't fade out so quickly.

Also, no one is demanding anything of anyone. At least I am not. My point is, that fast mechs are best suited to defend against caps. Smart and/or team players in fast mechs will help defend. Hopefully their teammates are smart enough to help, if needed.

And no one is saying you should command anyone else to do anything, but you should communicate what needs to be done in chat. sometimes that can come off as a command. But really, "Fast mechs back to base pls" isn't a command. It's the logical course of action (unless capping theirs is more effective).

Win or lose, it sucks to have a good fight end early because of a cap.

[Trauglodyte]

Does the overall point of this thread boil down to the OP being angry that, while in a PUG full of unorganized players that may not be capable of carrying a thought and walking at the same time, s/he was the only person to RTB while said PUG idiots probably face hugged their targets so that they got more XP/cbills and hopefully padded theire stats? Cause that is what I'm gathering here.

And no, I'm not jaded.

[Jman5]

Trauglodyte, on 10 April 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

Does the overall point of this thread boil down to the OP being angry that, while in a PUG full of unorganized players that may not be capable of carrying a thought and walking at the same time, s/he was the only person to RTB while said PUG idiots probably face hugged their targets so that they got more XP/cbills and hopefully padded theire stats? Cause that is what I'm gathering here.

And no, I'm not jaded.

Even if you're entirely self-interested and greedy, you can often get more money and experience from going back to base, and receiving the defensive kill bonus on top of the money/exp you get from a normal kill.

The kill bonus is usually somewhere around 70-80 exp. defensive kill is 70-80exp + 150 exp. So when you kill something on your base it's like getting 3 kills for the price of 1. And this is ignoring all the experience and c-bills you gain from not letting the game end prematurely. Potentially even getting win rewards.

Edited by Jman5, 10 April 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

Well, its always been my experience that PUGers, for the most part, don't know their heads from their *****. With ELO being what it is, you never know if you've got a good group of experienced people that talk and focus or a bunch of Leeroy Jenkins types that wanna see pretty colors and don't care/know about heat and could give two ***** about helping with anything.

Truthfully, I used to be the Cicada that ran back to base. But I've grown tired of getting butchered cause I'm going back solo (nobody joins me) and there ends up being multiple lights all spamming their Streak buttons. not worth it

[Alistair Winter]

Jman5, on 10 April 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Watch the capture rate if you want to know how many people are at your base. 1 mech, 1 mech with cap accel, and 2 mechs all have different capture rates. If you play a light, this is worth taking the time to understand because as you said, you don't want to show up and be surprised by a 2v1.

I do know that. Of course, you can still be surprised if there's a Cicada and a Dragon capping, and the Cicada got their first. You're halfway to base, and now it's 2 vs 1. Do you still go to base, or do you wait for backup?

And ultimately, one important controversy in this thread is that there's a number of players who feel that it doesn't matter if it's 2 vs 1 or 4 vs 1. It's the duty of the light player to sacrifice himself for the good of the team, in order to slow down the enemy cap and buy time for the heavier mechs. So it doesn't matter what kind of resistance you're expecting - if you're a light mech, you need to RTB regardless.

Max Power, on 10 April 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

Yeah, pugs can be unreliable. The only thing you can do is communicate the situation and hope they respond. Of course, it would help if the chat log didn't fade out so quickly.
Also, no one is demanding anything of anyone. At least I am not. My point is, that fast mechs are best suited to defend against caps. Smart and/or team players in fast mechs will help defend. Hopefully their teammates are smart enough to help, if needed.
And no one is saying you should command anyone else to do anything, but you should communicate what needs to be done in chat. sometimes that can come off as a command. But really, "Fast mechs back to base pls" isn't a command. It's the logical course of action (unless capping theirs is more effective).
Win or lose, it sucks to have a good fight end early because of a cap.

A very reasonable response, even though I feel different about your last point. I don't mind losing by cap as much as having to chase enemy cappers.

People complain about the fact that so few players use light mechs and medium mechs (see other threads), or that certain equipment isn't being used (see TAG or NARC threads) or that light and medium mechs aren't used correctly (as in this thread). It's all because of the way the game is designed.
If it was more fun to defend base, more people would do it.
If it was more fun to use light mechs to scout and use TAG & NARC, more people would do that.
If it was more fun to use flamers and MGs to cripple enemy mechs instead of destroying them, people would do that.

Part of the problem is that when it's not effective (e.g. NARC or MGs), then it's not fun. Another part of the problem is that when you're not rewarded properly (i.e. you are paid more for destroying an arm than for crippling the components), then it's not fun. But a major part of the problem is that when it's not really stimulating and doesn't offer the same challenge as an actual fight (such as running around an oil rig while enemy mechs are shooting at you, trying to stay alive on the square as long as possible), then it becomes a chore. And people play this game to have fun.

[Zen Hachetaki]

Trauglodyte, on 10 April 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Well, its always been my experience that PUGers, for the most part, don't know their heads from their *****. With ELO being what it is, you never know if you've got a good group of experienced people that talk and focus or a bunch of Leeroy Jenkins types that wanna see pretty colors and don't care/know about heat and could give two ***** about helping with anything.

Truthfully, I used to be the Cicada that ran back to base. But I've grown tired of getting butchered cause I'm going back solo (nobody joins me) and there ends up being multiple lights all spamming their Streak buttons. not worth it

Have to agree here - many, many times I get back and fight 2 - 3 off for 30 sec to even a minute and then realize no one else came... I will flicker the targets so folks can perhaps notice how many I am taking on - or even garble something in chat "help"
- usually nothing. It can be very frustrating to be that guy and either we lose anyway, or on the off chance we win there is no recognition - especially in the form of XP/Cbills as I am usually trying to be on base more than kill (particularly against 2 or more).

If I seem to have a good Pug group (ie lots of banter/talk/apparent intelligence) I certainly still do, but if it is a lost cause then I just plan which mech I will take on my next drop...

[Jman5]

Trauglodyte, on 10 April 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Well, its always been my experience that PUGers, for the most part, don't know their heads from their *****. With ELO being what it is, you never know if you've got a good group of experienced people that talk and focus or a bunch of Leeroy Jenkins types that wanna see pretty colors and don't care/know about heat and could give two ***** about helping with anything.

Truthfully, I used to be the Cicada that ran back to base. But I've grown tired of getting butchered cause I'm going back solo (nobody joins me) and there ends up being multiple lights all spamming their Streak buttons. not worth it

While I understand the frustration of not having a team that listens, I tend to look at it from the perspective of: "I might as well go back." Think about it. If there are multiple lights then they will cap win in about a minute or less. Will you most definitely make enough money/experience in that tiny window of opportunity that you wouldn't make running back to base and putting the hurt (however futile) on those cappers? On the flip side you have the opportunity to make a comeback, save the base,and make mad bank on those defensive kill bonuses.

In my opinion the only downside is your KDR drops. But who cares about an easily abusable number only you see?

Edited by Jman5, 10 April 2013 - 01:46 PM.

[Parmeggido]

A win is worth so much more, I can't understand why you wouldn't want to return to base. Defensive kills, extra c-bills + xp, and salvage. those three things alone often come out to more than 45k c-bills, in fact, salvage alone in my experience is often more than 40k on its own, and you're telling me you get more ignoring the base warning and losing?

[Noobzorz]

Grayseven, on 10 April 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

An important note that playing teamwork is a two way street.

I feel your pain. It ******* kills me when people don't read chat and I'm SCREAMING in all caps at the dude to get back on the base because there are two mechs capping ours and it is 3 kilometers away and all he has to do is stand in place and we will win. I think it's incredibly selfish not to communicate with your team. This is part of the reason I support deathmatch: it would cause massive scrub atrophy and a general improvement in player quality in assault and conquest.

Anyway, I don't condone that kind of self absorbed ******** anymore than I condone lights and mediums just deciding that it isn't their responsibility to cap or defend caps. In the last match I played, our RVN-2X went off to join the brawl (read: massacre) and I trundled back to base in my atlas to defend against the raven, meaning that we were down to a few pixels by the time I got there and since I am not a selfish *****, I got to camp it for the remaining five minutes of the match until he came back to try again and got torched.


Selfish play is selfish no matter who is doing it, and I think a MOBA style karma system that includes not communicating with your team as unacceptable behavior would be really, really great.

[MonkeyCheese]

Just play conquest, no insta loss from instacappers, at least you get time to have a good fight.

[Deathlike]

This thread again...

A lot of this has to be "natural" or even "learned".

The simplest expectation for anyone being base capped is to make sure many if not all of the lights are returning to base. It helps to recognize the speed of the capping, so you can determine the # of mechs you have to deal with, but it could just be a "trap".

At least one fast mech needs to disengage and respond to the threat... it's better when there is two involved, but you don't want to pull all fast mechs (especially if that's the overall composition of the team)... just enough to buy time. Not all caps are strictly to cap.. it's just the distraction that requires a response.

If you are NOT a fast mech, once in a while, you need to help assist, especially if you are told that additional help is needed, because the mechs that are capping are "not fast mechs". If you are a "man" up in the kill stats AND you are not exactly in active combat, you should try to get going ASAP. This should apply to heavies/mediums and the occasional fast Awesome. There's no realistic expectation that an Atlas can properly respond to the threat... you want the Atlas to stay on the front lines.

When you do have the man advantage... ANY mech that is going @ 65-70kph or faster SHOULD help go respond to the threat. If you're slow and the battlefield has cleared, you're probably 50+% of the way to the enemy cap, AND you should go cap.

These are the simple rules of thumb when it comes to dealing with base capping. There is no hard and fast rule, but it helps that light mechs (or the fastest mechs) scout and deal with the situation as appropriate. If you're stuck with no good options on Alpine, then go camp your own base then. There's no shame in recognizing that not everything will go according to plan.

Also, it bears mentioning... TAKE NOTE of what mechs are fielded. I don't consider a Raven-2X or 4X the same as a 3L, so make adjustments according to what you see on the field.

I'm not a fan of people failing to do their job. If you try do it, noone will think less of you. You can play however you want, but don't be the one whining if you don't partake in being part of a team and proceed to lose.

[hammerreborn]

When assaults aren't useless meat shields ill consider doing more work than I already do. When I constantly call out enemy locations, traps, create diversions and cap, while they stand around being ******** and ignoring it all they can kiss my ***.

The amount of matches I've lost after I've called out a light cap rush, mechs sneaking behind them from cave, etc, and watched my team do nothing is probably exactly the amount of matches I've lost total.

Yesterday I went long way in alpine and started base cap (we were upper base). An awesome was near base and attacked me. I put him down fast, got back on cap. A cicada then went after me, and also died. Then a 40 jager, a splatterpult, and a hunchback all swarmed and killed me.

My entire team hid behind the mountain, and then got crushed as the enemy team had all the time in the world to regroup an push.

I ended with 500 damage and our only 2 kills, the next barely broke 100.

Ya I'm going to do what you bads ask.

[Sadistic Savior]

LOL, "Cap Warriors". All you can really do is mock them in chat.

I don't see it a lot actually, but it does happen. If you want to blame someone, blame the DEVs. This is working as intended according to them, and you can't blame lights for doing what they are designed for.

It is mildly annoying, but it is a design issue, not a player issue. Victory conditions should include minimal combat (like being forced to kill half the opposing team or something).

[Jman5]

Just to reiterate my point here is another game where I went back to defend our base from cap. I got a kill earlier from someone off base, and then 2 guys waltzed onto our base to cap. We killed them (I didnt get the kills) and look at all the experience I got from essentially getting 2 assists. A total of 3 guys died this game, so there wasn't a ton of fighting. Don't forget, you can stack savior kills/Defensive kill together.



DEFENDING YOUR BASE IS EASY MONEY/EXPERIENCE.

Hell, half the time it's just some poor sap who lost all his weapons and is trying to be useful.