124 replies to this topic

[Corwin Vickers]

That happened about 5 minutes ago. It's not a lot of damage but it is damage.

[Anjian]

Quote

You are also incorrect about the composition of units in the books as most mechs in the books are lights and mediums.

Only in MWO are heavies and assaults 2/3rds of all mechs.

That is because lights and mediums are cheap, not because they are competitive. Like in the game Decision at Thunderift, or the earlier Mechwarrior games. Why did you start out with a light? The ever mech I ever played in a Mechwarrior game (MW1) was a Jenner. Grey Death Legion is a mercenary lance. As mercs, they operate as a business. Lights and mediums are much cheaper to obtain and repair than the bigger mechs.

Because its cheap. Heavies and Assaults are superior in any combat compability, but if you are starting a mech lance of your own for mercenary purposes, and you got 10 million Cbills to spend, you are going to end up with less mechs if you spend on an Assault or a Heavy, but you get a lot more Lights and Mediums. Then these numbers do matter, that for the buck, lights and mediums are better for the combat dollar.

And if the game enforces tonnage limits, you are going to see a lot more lights and mediums. Just like in the strategy games including the Clix games. Build an army no more than 200 tons. 2 Atlases vs. 5 Ravens and a Commando or various supporting tanks and artillery. Who is going to win there?

That is why Mechwarrior vs. the strategy games are a completely different experience. Its hard to believe they are even the same game. And that is a consistent problem with every Mechwarrior game even with the earlier ones. Back when I was in MW4, I would say that 80 to 90% are in heavies and assaults, and perhaps about more than 50 to 70% are in assaults. The people who bring in lights and mediums can even get scolded online for bringing those things in.

But thats how it goes. Its a natural phenomemon. Its why light tanks faded in World War 2. Even in other games, I remember Heavy Gear 2, you won't be using lights and mediums in death matches unless the game has a set weight limit or you are playing Capture The Flag.

PGI is trying to balance all the weight classes in the game, but the truth is, the natural thing is, something that is worth over 8 million CBills should reflect some combat superiority over something worth over 2 million CBills. So PGI created all these artificial boosts to lights and mediums and the result feels inconsistent and counterintuitive, and in the end, less immersive. Though at the same time, having so many heavies and assaults feel counterintuitive either.

If Mechwarrior was indeed, born in a sandbox type of game (like EVE Online), where you earn your mechs, transport them, maintain them, and truly lose them. Really lose them, you are going to find a lot more of the player base in lights and mediums because of the economic factors involved.

Let us not even forget, that the strategy games, and all the fictional literature, also involve infantry, and non mech vehicular forces (tanks, artillery, helicopters, fighters). Light and medium mechs are useful for screening them out. In a way, the lighter mechs are meant for non mech combat.

Edited by Anjian, 11 April 2013 - 07:40 AM.

[stjobe]

Anjian, on 11 April 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

That is because lights and mediums are cheap

Back when we had Repair & Rearm in the game, lights and mediums with Tier 1 tech were impossible to lose money with. Even lights with Tier 2 tech were hard to lose money with; you basically had to be cored and stripped to not get a net gain from a match.

Anything else you ran the very real risk of actually losing CB if you lost, and with Tier 2 tech and lots of ammo you'd probably even lose CB on a win.

There were a lot more lights about in those days (and a lot less boats), so that's one way of balancing things.

[Cubivorre]

ts;dr(too short didn't read):

I DUN LIKE LIGHT MECHS

Edited by Cubivorre, 11 April 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Grayseven]

stjobe, on 11 April 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Public service announcement #34926-b:

Collisions are still in-game. Ever noticed your leg armour going yellow when that fat Assault pushes by you at the start of the match? That's collision damage.

Knockdowns were removed, and rightly so, since they were a buggy mess.

Funny story. My brother was in his Atlas in River City at the upper (by the plane) base. To avoid the rush, he decided to drop down into the tunnel (slow mech, no leg damage) only to find himself doing a slight rubber band thing for a few seconds before dropping to the tunnel floor. Meanwhile his chat message said "<brother's name redacted> has killed <name redacted>".

Seems a Jenner pilot on his team had the same idea and my brother landed on top of him and the rubber banding thing that mech collisions often invoke caused him to stomp the poor little ****** into mush...

[Elizander]

I actually have fun hunting lights down. Them legs.

[stjobe]

Grayseven, on 11 April 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Funny story. My brother was in his Atlas in River City at the upper (by the plane) base. To avoid the rush, he decided to drop down into the tunnel (slow mech, no leg damage) only to find himself doing a slight rubber band thing for a few seconds before dropping to the tunnel floor. Meanwhile his chat message said "<brother's name redacted> has killed <name redacted>".

Seems a Jenner pilot on his team had the same idea and my brother landed on top of him and the rubber banding thing that mech collisions often invoke caused him to stomp the poor little ****** into mush...

Yep. I've been killed by collision damage several times in my Commandos, and once an ingenious Catapult pilot actually DFA:d me by repeatedly jumping on top of me (I was on our cap to stop him capping and shut down to stop his streaks from being able to lock on me - it was a StreakCat).

[Deathlike]

Every single time I read a thread like this, a kitten dies.

And by kitten, I mean Catapult.

[Grayseven]

stjobe, on 11 April 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Yep. I've been killed by collision damage several times in my Commandos, and once an ingenious Catapult pilot actually DFA:d me by repeatedly jumping on top of me (I was on our cap to stop him capping and shut down to stop his streaks from being able to lock on me - it was a StreakCat).

That there is some fine outside the box thinking on the part of that pilot. Sorry you got stomped though...

[MaddMaxx]

Corwin Vickers, on 11 April 2013 - 07:08 AM, said:

That happened about 5 minutes ago. It's not a lot of damage but it is damage.

Quite a variety of weapons that took you out as well. What! LRM? Can't be. No one uses them anymore, right? Streak 2, Large Pulse, Medium Pulse, Medium laser, LRM 15. Unlikely to all be on one Mech right?

Edited by MaddMaxx, 11 April 2013 - 09:28 AM.

[stjobe]

Grayseven, on 11 April 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

That there is some fine outside the box thinking on the part of that pilot. Sorry you got stomped though...

No, no, I thought the same. Even congratulated him on it

MaddMaxx, on 11 April 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Quite a variety of weapons that took you out as well. What! LRM? Can't be. No one uses them anymore, right? Streak 2, Large Pulse, Medium Pulse, Medium laser, LRM 15. Unlikely to all be on one Mech right?

Look at the "DESTROYED BY: COLLISION DAMAGE" line. That was the posters point.

Edited by stjobe, 11 April 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[Corwin Vickers]

Yeah, I ran into a guy after jumping down into those concrete pipes and it killed me.

You notice the time in match was very short. I had another light on the ropes and he ran back to his team. I followed and killed him but took a beating.

As for the LRMs, was probably an accidental shot seeing as how I had ECM.

[Ingvay]

I'm a fairly noob Spider pilot, I prefer heavy mechs for most of my play...Phract is my favorite at the moment. Here's the thing though... When I jump in the spider, the game changes, your tactics have to change, like someone else said, one mistake can often be your last (and often is) in a light. The other night I pulled a Hunchback from its perch above the battle by harrassing it over and over from behind, it got down and a teammate killed it. That is a role a light can fill nicely. Hit and Run, use your speed and feed info. to your teammates. By the same token, I watched another light pilot ninja me from behind before I could react recently, they then went on to chip away at the heavy with help from a teammate. So even though I spend 2/3 of my time on a heavy, I enjoy the change of pace and tactics from a light. I'm actually anxious to see the Flea when it becomes available.

[Corwin Vickers]

Anjian, on 11 April 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

[/font]
That is because lights and mediums are cheap, not because they are competitive. Like in the game Decision at Thunderift, or the earlier Mechwarrior games. Why did you start out with a light? The ever mech I ever played in a Mechwarrior game (MW1) was a Jenner. Grey Death Legion is a mercenary lance. As mercs, they operate as a business. Lights and mediums are much cheaper to obtain and repair than the bigger mechs.

In MW 1 wasn't it the locust that was the light mech? Also it was the most devestating mech in the game. Do you know how many marauders and warhammers I killed with my locust? Well all of them because I beat the game with a locust.


Sure lights and mediums are competitive. In Battletech you're usually not limited by the number of pilots you have but by the number of mechs you have. Mediums and lights are more effective per cost than heavies and assaults. That's why medium mechs are "the work horses mechs of most armies."

This is a video game where we are limited by the number of players.

The original quote was refuting the OPs assertion that everyone drives an assault mech in the books.

[PLOG]

so the basic theme of the whole thread having gone through the whole thing is: Slow down lights, make them easier to kill, and get rid of cap wins

Just because it takes an hour to get through a round in tabletop does not make that Spider do less than 80mph and turn and burn like a mother* If it did, then they'd still be using tanks in the future.

Rewind for ballistics will make it considerably less fun to be light, and you'll get your wish and see even less of us.

Personally, i've always thought they should have a modifier to xp by mech class. Less xp the heavier you are. Of course i'd like to see repair/rearm as well, but apparently that's out the window.

So just suck it up and keep bitchin. I'm pretty sure they'll nerf us more for you just for some peace and quite

till then...daka daka...

mattPLOG

[MaddMaxx]

stjobe, on 11 April 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

No, no, I thought the same. Even congratulated him on it

Look at the "DESTROYED BY: COLLISION DAMAGE" line. That was the posters point.

Well what did he expect. Running around like a cat with its tail on fire, not looking where it is going?

I watched 2 clan mates attempt a pass by "High Five" after a heavy battle and one died when they collided. That was months ago too. If you have 2 HP in the CT, slow down...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 11 April 2013 - 11:05 AM.

[Caleb Lee]

Taron, on 10 April 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

After more than 4.5k matches, i have the following to say:

Those matches between Heavies/Assaults are a lot of fun, even mediums are fun. But those lights? They are just a pain in the neck of the game.


I myself use a Cicada-3M instead of my Heavy Metal or Jager, or Phract, or Cata.... if i need XP and/or money. But to play with big mechs vs. other big mechs, that's the real fun.

Apparently, none of you read the books... there were some pretty epic light mech fights with even a few heavies involved, like when Justin Allard lost his arm, all the mechs were in light/mediums with I believe one Rifleman that 'ambushed' him. I can guarantee those weren't slow, ponderous with big explosions etc... it as a fast paced fur-ball with mechs flying through the air on JJ and strafing.

But most people enjoy the game differently. Myself, I like variety and prior to Elo and class matching would cycle through my various light, medium, heavy and assault mechs.

Now I mostly play lights (Jenner/Raven), Heavies (Dragon, Jaegermech, Cataphract) and Assault (Stalker/Atlas). It's a shame too as I used to love playing my Hunchies and are the only one I spent money on a cammo, the engine nerf just affected them too much and they are too slow and lightly armored compared to heavies and now it no longer matters what you bring.

You'll see less light pilots in the future with ballistic state rewind and collisions. The one's that continue to play will either be lucky or more likely some of the best pilots in the game.

I am already having to think twice before engaging more than one light or Cicada in my Jenner as there's a good chance that pilot is near/at same or even better skill level and I'll be the one in a smoking wreck instead of before I could walk through 1v2/3 situations pretty easily. Especially if I was getting a little help via LRM (non-existant now).

[Caleb Lee]

stjobe, on 11 April 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Back when we had Repair & Rearm in the game, lights and mediums with Tier 1 tech were impossible to lose money with. Even lights with Tier 2 tech were hard to lose money with; you basically had to be cored and stripped to not get a net gain from a match.

Anything else you ran the very real risk of actually losing CB if you lost, and with Tier 2 tech and lots of ammo you'd probably even lose CB on a win.

There were a lot more lights about in those days (and a lot less boats), so that's one way of balancing things.

With Elo and other 'artificial limitations' imposed on us, they should bring back costs and increase rewards. Then it might actually matter if you live/die and win/lose.

Personally, I hope they implement a battlevalue/tonnage/class matching soon and consider some sort of consequences to the meta-game otherwise I'll just play in some league like NBT was and private matches.

I have 0 interest in playing let alone paying for a meta-game that doesn't have consequences for losing and forces me to play with PUGs/Lonewolfs instead of my unit. I hate the artificial 4 man limitation and saddling me with poor players every 2nd or 3rd game so my odds of losing go up.

[DemonRaziel]

Taron, on 10 April 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

Well, the Spider / Jenner / Raven should be restricted as the Cicada IS! If it would be that way, no one would have any issue wth the lights. In fact, this means:

Restriction to maxium 3 Weapons.

I don't understand. How exactly is a Cicada restricted? Don't all CDAs have more than 3 hard points?

Also, the only Spider that has can carry more than 3 weapons is the 5K. And the only thing 4 of those weapons are good for is the devastating effect on the back of an Atlas... And do you really believe that removing a single hard point from Commandos would fix the issue you have with the Lights?

So this will mostly affect Jenners and Ravens and apart from the 3L, I don't think there are any Ravens that heavier 'Mechs need to be afraid of too much.

Edited by DemonRaziel, 11 April 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[Nick Carlile]

The crappier your computer is, the more annoying lights are. Throw ECM ontop of that, and you just ignore them shooting you while trying to shoot someone else.