119 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

I had no problem starting and playing three different New accounts. The Cadet bonus made grinding into a new Mech easy. You lost so much cause you had bad teams. How did you place? Even if I lose, if I place top three, I did good. I cannot win matches by myself, so as long as I contributed(got a kill &/or some assists), I am happy.

[MurnShaw]

I think the OP's main point is that new players need better mechs to be competitive against better-equipped players, but that is addressed by cadet bonus and implementation of better trial mechs. I honestly cannot think of a way that can give new players access to these game elements without trivializing the process of earning and customizing mechs.

If the issue at hand is player retention then I suppose a separate queue makes sense. This way players who have no intention of getting good at the game and just want to blow up stuff in a Death-Tank can do so without being roflstomped. I understand that there is concern this would fracture the player base, but if it's between having two player bases or one player base that is set up to be a cliff on the learning curve the strategically (business-wise) sound option is to go with two. Remember, you can't fracture the player base if technically, one of those bases does not exist because those players leave after 25 games.

Although, now that I think about it, there is already a two queue system in place: the 8 man queue and the 4 or fewer queue. Outside of player-organized play, I don't think many players do 8 man queues anymore (I could be wrong, I don't have the data). If we look at this as an indication that the current player base leans more casual than hardcore, then an additional queue system that allows players to be sub-optimal may do more good than harm. All that is necessary to deter better players from queuing in a casual queue is to reduce the rewards (fewer c-bills and exp points).

Now I'm thinking, what if the reason there is no plan to set up a more casual queue is because most of the game's revenue comes from the hardcore players? This would make sense business-wise. If free players are content to paying players, and free players are usually casual, why cater to them unless there's a way to convert them to paying players?

I guess the answer to that question is, how invested can you make the casual player in this game? That goes into consumer psychology, player mindset, and branding. And branding is a suuuuper expensive investment. If you do it right people will pay for whatever you make. If you do it wrong you're millions in the hole and a cautionary tale.

[Dan Nashe]

Eddy Hawkins, on 11 April 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

i am guessing you have never played EvE Online....

Actually, Eve was less brutal as you start with pve. I.e. you can tool around in hi sec without dying.

I mean, the psychopaths will kill you eventually, and pvp is a nightmare. But I really enjoyed the first 20 hours of eve just minin' and rattin'. Thenn you run into the fact that blowing up other people's property is not a crime and quit :-).
PGI has said that they are seriously thinking about starting new players off at a lower elo.

I strongly support this :-). Err on the side of lower.
And yeah. Tutorial plus dhs & full armor trials is a must.

Fairly sure the population is too small to support a cadet queue though.
Some kind of cadet lobby in game for grouping with new players would be great. Course, elo disparity would be killer... hmm.

I certainly like the idea of a cadet/trial mech queue, just not sure it's feasible.

Edited by DanNashe, 12 April 2013 - 06:36 AM.

[Teralitha]

Everyone seems to be worried about the game having too low of a population, even the devs... I think the even the devs need to be reminded that this is a beta.

When and if it ever reaches a release state, and they advertise.... (if they can afford to advertise) then alot more players will come in.

But the key to keeping them will be the experience they have as a new player. What are our poor devs going to do hmm....

Appogee, on 11 April 2013 - 11:21 PM, said:

I'm an actual new player, of two and a bit weeks.

I've played Mech games for decades, and was immediately familiar with the controls and weapons and so on. While I was of course not as immediately skilled as long time MWO players, and didn't know the maps, I don't believe my skills were significantly lower than an average player. The game isn't all that different at its basic level, vs MWLL or MW3 and 5.

Here is my experience, in my first week of playing...

0. Felt like a usual Mech game, which was great. HUD weapons and movement all immediately familiar. Electronic warfare seemed quite limited, and was surprised to learn I could only get ECM on a few (non-trial) Mechs.

1. Lost one in five games. Quite a few of these were ROFL-stomps where my team had zero kills.

2. Was surprised how hard it seemed to kill enemy Mechs, given my trial Mech (usually a Stalker or CTF) seemed to get cored fairly quickly. After a week, my k/d was disappointingly low, something like 0.5 or 0.6. I wondered why I sucked so bad when I'd been an above-average Mechwarrior in the previous games.

3. Was delighted how quickly I gained experience. It was a double XP weekend, it stacked with my Cadet Bonus.

4. Was surprised to find I'm better in a fast Medium than in an Assault. (I think MWO better balances the classes than any prior game.)

5. Sometimes wondered whether bugs were features. (''Why do I have no cross hairs?'' ''What is the significance of those rainbow colours on my minimap?'' ''How come I can't tell who is a friendly or enemy in this match?'')

In the past week, now that I've bought a Hero Mech (X-5) and upgraded my Catphract, and unlocked basics on both, my k/d is rapidly improving. XP seems to be earning woefully slow compared to the glorious Cadet Bonus + 2XP weekend! In fact, I only just amassed my first 5000 GXP last night.

So, what can the game designers learn from this, in the unlikely event they ever see this post or read this thread...?

1. The ELO system was usually putting me and my teammates up against much better teams. I noticed some of them were clearly collaborating together in packs, sometimes with the same camo markings.

2. Trial Mechs are generally deathtraps. They overheat, they can't hit as hard as an upgraded Mech, they die easier, etc. It makes a BIG difference to how encouraged you feel about progressing in the game. While new players should expect to have to lose at first, casual players could well get turned off by having the odds so stacked against them at first.

3. The Cadet Bonus is a great idea.

4. Official training resources are woefully inadequate. I had to spend hours and hours reading the forums to be able to deduce the nuances of the game to be able to become an ''average'' MWO player. You just don't learn how important getting out of trial mechs, using Endo-Steel and double heat sinks are, how useless ballistic weapons are on a 230 ping (!) etc etc etc from any of the official training resources.

I think a Cadet queue would be a great idea. Also ELO should assume new players aren't very good, because their unupgraded trial mechs will almost certainly ensure any new player is fighting at a significant disadvantage.

Hope this helps.

Did you use the training grounds?

[Appogee]

Teralitha, on 12 April 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

Did you use the training grounds?

I fired off a few shots there so that I could be certain that I knew which buttons did what. Maybe 2 minutes. There's not a lot to be learned there really if you're already familiar with Mech games.

[Arcadinal]

BladeSplint, on 11 April 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

its not the mech, its the pilot. Just take the time to hone your skills and make sure your positioning is good relative to your team. Yes the trial mechs suck but they aren't unplayable if your heat management is good.

Meh...I was trying to show a friend who's new to the game how to play using the trial version of a Stalker on his account a few weeks back...I was floored at how much harder it was. The intro curve is not friendly right now, it just isn't.

[Xelchon]

Rather than Cadet to Cadet, the game should match up the people who has played under a predetermined number of matches. Maybe lower than fifty or hundred, or smt. like that. The matchmaker could find it hard to put together two teams of cadets. Dunno if there is sufficient "cadets" around, only pgi can tell.

[BadgerWI]

I agree with the OP . The learning curve When you start out in this game is brutal.

[Karl Split]

Being an old eve pirate I do love the learning cliff, but i'd have to agree.

There needs to be a cadet vs cadet only part in the elo. Perhaps first 25 games of account are cadet only, and if the matchmaker has to, it throws in others to fill teams but absolutely NO premades.

[Syllogy]

Apparently you missed the whole part where they are going to start New Player accounts with a much lower elo rating so that they can get a better handle on things....

Just sayin', it's old news.

Edited by Syllogy, 12 April 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[Target Rich]

You have WAY more problems here....

You basically have no viable matchmaking system whatsoever...

First...the newbie tier for matchmaking is a MUST....however the game as a MMP with absolutely NO PVE must focus on placing these newbies into units (like chromehounds) where they are taught the ropes by the more experienced players.

As one of those newbies (to MWO) not MW....I joined my old MW3/MW4 unit Federated Suns...and we have been doing double 4 drops to begin unit training.... You know...how to play together using teamchat...as a unit...getting those hammer and anvil and other plays back into the game...

Right now...the developers have nerfed the broken matching system so that only 4 or full 8 man teams can drop together....

I like the question of having a matching that gives priority to the newbie only grouping....but after a unsuccessful search period...then allows those of us 4 and 8 man units to have somebody to shoot at...

Yea its painful...but it also gives strong incentive towards serious newbies to join these units to be taught by the more expert players...

That is frankly what this game should be all about

[Mr 144]

Mack1, on 11 April 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

...snip...

No hilarious video to brighten my day .....dissapointing Mack...

Mr 144

[VladoG]

Ilwrath, on 12 April 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

That is correct. The point is that a brand new player was facing those premade whales. I think.
It could have been even worse. It could have been those awful poptart sniper premades. Those are seriously
unfun to play against even if you have understood how the game works and are able to hit.

The jumping Aspergers...

I feel like PGI could fix this quite easy by limiting number of jumps with JJ to like 2 or 3 per JJ. Infinite fuel for JJ is quite bad specially when JJ are not using energy from engine but should use separate fuel.

[warner2]

This doesn't surprise me even if ELO is working properly, since a new player starts of with a mid-point (or average) ELO. I think that's 1300 but whatever the number is it's half-way between 0 and the maximum ELO. How about starting new players off with a below average ELO? To be fair it's a better assumption that a new player will be below average in capability, especially in a trial mech, rather than assuming they are average. If they are average or better they'll go up in ELO, rather than get punished and have to go down in ELO.

[NocturnalBeast]

I had made another account a while back to test the "new player experience" myself. My experience was quite positive. By the time my cadet bonus ran out, I had a better K/D ratio than my main account and I had enough cbills banked to buy almost any non-hero mech. OP, your problem was that you chose the Awesome as your trial mech. Any varient of the awesome is hard to do well in, even for experienced mechwarriors, this is especially true for the "stock" varient. The awesome should never be in the trial mech lineup.

[Karl Split]

Placing newbies straight into a player owned newbie friendly corp is a nono target rich.....

Unless ofc you think what happened in eve with 2 powerblocks controlling everything making the game stale as hell and boring is a good idea because that is what will happen if all newbies swarm into one powerblock.

The guy running one of the powerblocks in eve leaving and cashing all the ingame currency out and using it to pay the deposit on his house causing the whole block to collapse was a highpoint for a filthy pirate like me ><

[Ilwrath]

VladoG, on 12 April 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

I feel like PGI could fix this quite easy by limiting number of jumps with JJ to like 2 or 3 per JJ. Infinite fuel for JJ is quite bad specially when JJ are not using energy from engine but should use separate fuel.

I am mostly against randomness in games that deal with shooting at targets but I think adding some "shake" to the aim while airborne would do the trick without messing with anything else in the game.

[Anais Opal]

Just my tuppence worth.

Having an artificially high ELO on the very first drop is rather stupid.

Cadets should have ZERO ELO and have to work it up.

I did exactly the same as the op with another account and I was dropping against people I usually drop against on my regular account. i.e. people that have been playing since closed beta, hell, i even went head to head with some of my unit mates in my brand new trial commando on the third drop.......

[Ilwrath]

GlycerineOxide, on 12 April 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

I did exactly the same as the op with another account and I was dropping against people I usually drop against on my regular account. i.e. people that have been playing since closed beta, hell, i even went head to head with some of my unit mates in my brand new trial commando on the third drop.......

This can also be a result of the tiny population. Maybe there simply is very few new players?

[MurnShaw]

This is interesting because it implies there's low turnout of new players, at least on a weekday?Unless Glycerine's unit is an average unit, skillwise.

It's so hard to suggest solutions to a problem that you don't have all of the variables for....

I do not think lowering elo will work for player retention because lone wolves are matched with games that are missing a couple of players. Casuals will still get games where they get completely outclassed and as we all know, negative experiences outweigh positive ones by a wide margin.

GlycerineOxide, on 12 April 2013 - 08:01 AM, said:

Just my tuppence worth.

Having an artificially high ELO on the very first drop is rather stupid.

Cadets should have ZERO ELO and have to work it up.

I did exactly the same as the op with another account and I was dropping against people I usually drop against on my regular account. i.e. people that have been playing since closed beta, hell, i even went head to head with some of my unit mates in my brand new trial commando on the third drop.......