156 replies to this topic

[Nightcrept]

Lrm's are currently junk.

The avg hit rate for pug's that I have talked to is about 25%. Calculate the damage potential per thousand rounds for yourself.

And now compare that to the damage you will take from a 6xppc stalker each time you pop up to fire.

The same with srm's. Calculate reload time and damage for both and see who wins.



Missiles were broken against small mechs specifically and only slightly (very slightly) against larger mechs. That was the issue. If you drove an atlas then you felt the approx damage they will do when they come back.

Until then we will have to deal with a broken game and ppc-sniper retardation.

Anyone who claims that missiles are how they were intended to be doesn't understand what the devs have said and or the problem missiles had.

[Phoenix Gray]

Thontor, on 13 April 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

PPCs were bad, people complained, they thought PPCs should be good. PGI made PPCs good, now people complain about the result. I don't get it. Make up your minds!

The key words in your observation are, "People complain." I think it's subsidized by Big Forum Software to keep the traffic up.

[Phoenix Gray]

"They didn't make PPCs good, they made missiles bad."

"You're still big, Mechwarrior Desmond. It's the Inner Sphere that got small."

[Nightcrept]

Thontor, on 13 April 2013 - 04:44 PM, said:

Yeah.. many people don't know how to use LRMs effectively. used properly you can get a much higher hit rate. mine is around 40%, not much lower than my ballistics and PPCs.

It also depends on if your a pug or in a pre-made.
My avg with lrms is 29.72% since stats started.
My avg with erppc is 80.69%.
My avg with ppc is 78.47%.
My avg with gauss is 51.11%.

So stats are subjective to the individual.
But is you ask around you will notice that the avg pug hits 25% of the time or less. Your forty percent hit rate is going to be on the extremely highest of hit rates.

But even with your hit rate you are only getting a potential of 280 dmg per 1000 rounds fired.

And the avg pug is getting 175 dmg per 1000 rounds fired.

Edited by Nightcrept, 13 April 2013 - 04:58 PM.

[Sybreed]

LRMs are crap. Period.

1. Thanks to the splash radius nerf, they deal most of their damage on the CT which ISN'T WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.

2. The damage nerf rendered them nearly impractical, one could say useless. If a mech doesn't care that I fire LRM at him and keeps on sniping me, there's something wrong with the weapon.

3. ECM and cover are making hitting with these weapons more and more difficult. A 30% hit average is NOT good. Way too easy to break lock and take cover.

4. Anyone in their right mind would swap their LRMs for SRMs and that's just a symptom of how broken they are, because even SRMs are currently overnerfed.

So, stop saying LRMs are fine, they're not. They need a buff, and sooner than later would be welcomed. I shelved my trebuchet and my founder Catapult because LRMs aren't worth it right now and they're my lowest K/D ratio mech.

[DocBach]

CYBRN4CR, on 13 April 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Both of these aspects are never going to leave this game, no matter what the developers do. Such is the nature of this game. So if this really isn't what you wanted to get into, maybe you should cut your losses and get out?

The game doesn't need players who really aren't meant to be here.

Well, if I'm going to go by how many of my friends who've agreed with me and the amount of people who I see online nowadays, the game didn't need any of those players, either.

Have fun with your flavor of the month boats and limited tactics. White knight the game to death, because the balance problems that don't affect you because you play the overpowered mechanics are going to bleed this game of many more players the "game didn't need", and all the money and revenue we could have provided.

[Sybreed]

DocBach, on 13 April 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Well, if I'm going to go by how many of my friends who've agreed with me and the amount of people who I see online nowadays, the game didn't need any of those players, either.

Have fun with your flavor of the month boats and limited tactics. White knight the game to death, because the balance problems that don't affect you because you play the overpowered mechanics are going to bleed this game of many more players the "game didn't need", and all the money and revenue we could have provided.

A*freaking*men

[Spades Kincaid]

Thontor, on 13 April 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

I never used LRMs between when mech stats started being tracked and the latest missile hotfix. I only started afterwards to test the changes, and I feel as if they are quite effective right now.

Your stats are still going to be comparatively skewed (med/med) by the fact your non-LRM med mechs had to fight amidst and against the previous power of LRM's, and likely suffered for it. Not to mention, that if you've only started the LRM's since....I'd think you've probably also simply improved as a pilot. Dragging down the stats on your non-LRM comparatively.

Survivability of a fast med LRM-only mech is by nature going to generally be superior to one that has to mix it up with the heavies and assaults more directly. Resulting in better K/D ratio's, more kill opportunity overall, etc.

Feel is all well and good. If you're enjoying your experience with them more power to you. But unless the stats are all post hotfix to all post hotfix, they are flawed for comparison purposes.

Personally, I don't think LRM's are quite the complete trash now that some make them out to be. But I do think they are suffering post hotfix and need some improvements. That doesn't necessarily mean damage changes. Flight-speed/flight-path tweaks could go a long way alone to making them more effective without changing their damage numbers. Less reaction time for avoidance, less leg/ground splatter on anything moving at more than a crawl.

Edited by Spades Kincaid, 13 April 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[TOGSolid]

This thread is hilarious.

PPCs and Gauss are fine, we'll have something to talk about once the proper missile fix goes.  Just have some patience guys until we see how things shake out after that.  If LRMs get done up properly then the natural predator of the snipers will come back and things will normalize out.

Edited by TOGSolid, 13 April 2013 - 05:22 PM.

[FrOdO]

Weren't the PPC and Gauss Rifle always pretty powerful weapons in BT lore?

[Wintersdark]

I've got a 29.7% hit rate with LRM's overall, and if I run LRM's, I run TAG (and as such ignore ECM - I have zero trouble holding a lock with tag through ECM). At a 29.7% hit rate and .7 damage per missile, I can expect roughly 200 damage per 1000 rounds of ammo... or 37 damage per ton of ammo. That's ridiculously bad. Atrociously so.

My autocannons average 60% accuracy (higher for the big ones, lower for the 2's as I tend to fire a stream against fast moving mechs), but even at 50% hit rate your looking at 75 damage per ton.

Now, you could argue that this is ok, because LRM's indirect fire etc... But LRM's are already heavily disadvantaged. With autocannons, I can fire that 75 damage per ton with pinpoint accuracy. The LRM's fly extremely slowly, are easily avoided by trundling into cover, have an incoming missile warning, and are heavily disadvantaged by ECM. And after all that, the meagre 37 damage per ton the LRM's are actually generating is spread randomly over the entire enemy mech.

When I'm in a Heavy or Assault, I will often entirely ignore mechs firing LRM's at me, unless they are firing a hell of a lot of them. I'll line up a good headshot, and kill them outright; then eat the LRM volley without fear of anything but a nice yellow sheen over my paperdoll.

[Wintersdark]

Spades Kincaid, on 13 April 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

Personally, I don't think LRM's are quite the complete trash now that some make them out to be. But I do think they are suffering post hotfix and need some improvements. That doesn't necessarily mean damage changes. Flight-speed/flight-path tweaks could go a long way alone to making them more effective without changing their damage numbers. Less reaction time for avoidance, less leg/ground splatter on anything moving at more than a crawl.

I'd definitely be all for LRM's keeping their current damage but gaining a much increased flight speed to reduce time-to-target. Such a change, however, would necessitate also buffing AMS slightly, or it'd be lucky to knock out any missiles.

SRM's, I think, need a .1 damage increase as I'm not really sure what else could be done to help them.

[Fate 6]

Yokaiko, on 13 April 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

I was never into the brawl brawl brawl and then oh yeah, brawl thing.

The majority of weapons are supposed to be effective under 500m. You have half a mech by the time you get that close.

[General Taskeen]

Just troll in 150 kph lights. Prolong matches and troll sync drop stompers. Profiting from tears of Call of Dooty and Meta Warriors is the most fun I've had in this game since Closed Beta.

Edited by General Taskeen, 13 April 2013 - 06:14 PM.

[bigdaddynash]

Jojobird, on 13 April 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure there's recently been an increase in sniping overall. I've been thinking about it and I don't know why. Peopel that were missile boating going sniping could male sense, but I'm not sure that's it.

lasers got state rewind, missle spread damage went wrong and has been taken away to be fixed. the button spammer i win 1 shot players have thus traversed to energy builds away from their splat mechs and lrm boats to laser boats and ppc gauss snipers.

anything else you need answering?

[DocBach]

Ah, you mean players who were going to pay money in this game isn't the audience? I can't believe people would pay good money and expect a decent product!

[Shinikaru]

Because currently an entire class of weponry (MISSLES) are worthless ie: LRM, or severly reduced ie: SRM.

Why would anyone with a brain use more tonnage for less damage?

It's not a matter of balancing the current favorites, its a matter of balancing the entire system, and missles are as they are the weakest link.


I'm FAR more annoyed to see my own team ridge firing LRM 10's or 15's than I am to get shot at with ER PPC that half the MWO population can't seem to hit with.

Edited by Shinikaru, 13 April 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[Shinikaru]

CYBRN4CR, on 13 April 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

Which is fine. As you or anyone who agrees with you never were meant to be the primary audience for this game. Good bye.

My favorite aspect of this game was that it did basically ZERO hand holding. I'm Not OK with hand-holding. This game gets more fun the better you get at it, and it's probably not much fun if you arent up to it. (HI GO PLAY WII-U)

I don't want personally to see alot of dumbing-down to attract a larger audiance, but from a fininacial persepective thats pretty stupid.

[Khell DarkWolf]

Thontor, on 13 April 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

both the same tonnage, same number of crits, close to the same range.

sure you need artemis, tag, ammo with the LRM15,

but you need at least the same tonnage in heat sinks with the ERPPCs since they generate 2.75x the amount of heat per shot.

LRMs seem fine to me.

Thontor, on 13 April 2013 - 01:47 PM, said:

Whatever you say. My personal results do not back that up.

• TBT-7M/3C combined (both same 2 ALRM15+TAG config, no other weapons)
  
  • 1.88 W/L, 2.00 KDR, 0.87 kills per match
• Other mediums combined (using an assortment of lasers, autocannons, SRMs, even some PPCs)
  
  • 1.20 W/L, 1.41 KDR, 0.81 kills per match
• Cataphracts (PPCs, Gauss, lasers)
  
  • 1.57 W/L, 1.77 KDR, 0.97 kills per match
• Atlases (PPCs, Gauss, Lasers, Autocannons, SRMs, etc.)
  
  • 2.60 W/L, 2.18 KDR, 1.26 kills per match

There's no deying I do better in my Atlases, but that's no surprise considering they are twice the tonnage. I get more kills per match in my Cataphracts, but seem to die more often, hence the lower KDR. But there is no denying, that at least for me, the LRM Trebuchets outperform the non-LRM mediums. Both in Kills, and in winning.

You can't post stats of your LRMs or any weapon for that matter because there is no proof that it was before LRMgeddon or post nerf patch of the missile nerf since the beginning of the stats feature was implemented. The results are skewed because they haven't been reset after the missile nerf patch.


I stand with the people here that agree "LRMs are complete junk" and SRMs while not great, don't have a real threatening impact.

If you were the one of the pilots firing LRMs past 600 meters, you were doing it wrong.

If you were one of the few crying that LRMs were OP, why didn't you make room to opt in for an AMS!? Those too stubborn to see the threat of it, cried about it because they didn't want to all fit 2 ton equipment minimum to help mitigate this.

The best way to use LRMs do it was close to under 500m but stay above 180m and treat them more as MRMs.

Get to that firing angle before prematurely firing your clouds of LRMs to give off your position. The reason also here was that, you didn't want to give them time to dodge and run.

There is very, VERY rare instances where you would ever fire LRMs past 600m. Too much time to give them warning and duck and cover. You would just waste ammo as they would hit buildings and objects.

Most real LRM users that were smart, put themselves out there to tag their own targets with the ECM heavy matchs and fire in a good position.

A Poor LRM user did not bring a tag and/or stayed so far in the back to 900m. The moment they got a missile lock, they fired and immediately lost it because they didn't pay attention to the minimap to find out in what relation the target was at or if it was a real clear shot.

You had more lee-way with being a mobile LRM carrier like the treb, because you can quickly reposition and get those good angles before firing.

But again, since stats have not been reset since they were first introduced. I'm going to take your results with a grain of salt because there is no way to prove you first started using LRMs before or after the missile dmg patch.

[Sam Slade]

Wintersdark, on 13 April 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

When I'm in a Heavy or Assault, I will often entirely ignore mechs firing LRM's at me, unless they are firing a hell of a lot of them. I'll line up a good headshot, and kill them outright; then eat the LRM volley without fear of anything but a nice yellow sheen over my paperdoll.

This. When standing in a huge barrage of missiles and calmly headcapping the mech using them is a viable tactic you have a bit of a problem.

Personally I love missiles but find them not worth the tonnage. For LRMs I'd strongly advocate a really solid damage buff combined with a heavy reduction in ammo per ton. If one ton of ammo only gave you two shots with your LRM 50 you'd think twice about usung it on anything and everything: ECM, Incomming Alerts, cover... all of these make landing constant LRM fire a challange. But... if your target is tunnel vision ridge humping and a scout sneaks around and NARCS them... those valuable LRMs should knock his backside into next week.

Now, people will complain that scouts/lights are even more OP with a change like that... but they will say that because they are using Alpha loaded snipers who are very easy to avoid with a bit of mobility. Mediums would also have more of a place sweping the flanks to guard against spotters... they may end up being LRMed to death but then those LRMs are gone and won't be landing in a heavy/assault furbal later in the match.

tldr: Buff LRM damage, reduce ammo per tonne to 100. Buff SRM damage by small increments until a good level is found(long process)