82 replies to this topic

[DeadlyNerd]

Win loss ratio, another term for "got in a good team" "got in a noob team" ratio.

[Belorion]

Gallowglas, on 18 April 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

More information, not less.

Which is exactly why it would be nice to be able to log the matches. That way you can see how much damage each person did to what component. This would be more useful to teams/corps of course, but individuals could get something out of it as well.

For example if you are getting more than 50% or the damage on the enemies CT and CT shots are what are killing the enemy even if you don't get the kills you can see you are doing the right thing.

DeadlyNerd, on 18 April 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

Win loss ratio, another term for "got in a good team" "got in a noob team" ratio.

You certainly have a point there. I don't personally PUG a whole lot, but I do run 3/4 man teams in pugs.

[Jess Hazen]

The introduction of elo match making has skewed w/l rate.

Reanalyize your position about kdr and w/l rate with that information in mind.

[Appogee]

While k/d can be a bit of a lottery each game, it's the stat I focus on most because over the course of many games it should give me some perspective on how I'm doing as a MechWarrior.

Mine started out around 0.66, and I'm just about to get it back to 1.0. If I can get it up to 2.0 then I will feel satisfied.

Damage/game wouldn't be a good indicator, because Assaults are almost always going to cause more damage than a Light or Medium. Even k/d I am sure gets unduly influenced by chassis type.

If I could create a metric, it would be Average Match Score, weighted to take account of Chassis type. That would presumably take into account kills, spotting, damage received and deaths.

Edited by Appogee, 18 April 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Bloodstained]

My first post in the forums and I am sorry is going to be one of those tl;dr.

I voted to drop the kdr completely because it will be the reason why the game will go down very quickly. I play mostly pugs in games because I have other more important things in my life to do, attend and care about. So when I sat in front of my computer I want to “relax” and have my fun the way I want. This doesn’t mean I want chaos and disorder with people (I have enough of these in my work ). However so far I had only a handful of examples in this game where teams worked as teams and people understood their roles, and I start to realise what was the issue of having mostly chaotic and disorganised games where even luck is not present. And the reason is the kdr.

Let me explain. People care about stats, the more stats the more caring they have, and if one of the stats is their performance “image” then they will focus more on that stat, to improve their “image”, which is understandable. The kdr is an individual stat which means that this stat affects only this person and improving it, improves only this individual’s “image”. A win/loose ration is more of a group stat, mean that teams need to work together and win or lost games affects everybody. What is going on right now is that many jump in a pug and they only care about their kdr. They kill as many as they can (or none sometimes) so they can collect cbills and xp and they don’t care if they lose or not because their kdr is high and the money is good. However the rest of the players (in both teams) they have a bitter taste. But if it was a win/lose ratio this kind of behaviour won’t work because they will know that kills mean nothing other than a higher place in the scoreboard, which it should be a secondary objective and not as primary as it is now. Having games with 1 player having all 7 kills and 1k + damage and still that team loses because they didn’t had any team work (yes guys defending is a game strategy) is very confusing imo. You will never see these kind of results in games that are team based, and if I remember correct this game advertises itself as a team based game.

Now wait, before you jump and start saying join a clan or house, in order to get this type of game experience please make a note the following. There are other games out there that with one way or another, the game itself is designed that the role you are choosing has a purpose in the game and if you follow this role you will do very good or excel. If you try to do something else you won’t do so good, you may be good but still you depend on others and this is what makes a team, dependence. An example of such a game which imo make players not care about the kills and focus more in a team play is TF2, some might agree with this example and some might not. Imho this game needs to take examples from TF2, forcing players to play as teams that will provide better experience and lots of fun even in pugs.

I can join a clan or a house but what about the times I don’t play with them? Why my/our experience needs to degrade? Why every new player that enters the game and goes to a pug has to have a bad experience? When I was at Uni, they were telling us that the CV is the first thing that an employer knows about you, the same goes with the first game a new player has. If he is having a blast then he will continue to play, if not he will drop it to go back what he was playing or the next exciting thing that is always is around the corner. And make no mistake I make all these points for one reason, MWO is great game and I want to succeed but from close beta to now I haven’t seen improvements that will make people to be really excited. The new lance features were nice but nothing to really raise eyebrows.

Those are my opinions about the kdr, sorry for the long wall of text, i hope i didn't crit hit anybody with it

Ps.English isn't my first language so excuse my spelling or grammatical mistakes. Now i have to go back to work. Also WOW 750+ words i wish i had that passion to write when i was in my Uni

[Budor]

p00k, on 18 April 2013 - 04:57 AM, said:

what are you talking about
the game tracks both win/loss and kill/death already

I like how everyone ignored this post

[jay35]

More information is generally good, so long as the user retains their ability to control the public/private nature of their personal stats, just as is the case with other platforms like Steam. Always provide the user control to choose whether or not they want their personal stats made public.

If they are going to force stats to be public, then get rid of any that will serve as fuel for excusing opinions or attacking people, like KDR and WLR.

Edited by jay35, 18 April 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[StandingInFire]

Its a team game as such KDR is garbage, KDA on the other hand has meaning beyond getting the last hit.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Bad, agenda driven poll here.

Voting for keep both (yes, I can use a calculator or even long division to figure out my WLR if I'm interested but wouldn't mind PGI making it so it's already done).

Bloodstained, on 18 April 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

My first post in the forums and I am sorry is going to be one of those tl;dr.

I voted to drop the kdr completely because it will be the reason why the game will go down very quickly.

Really? The hundreds of thousands of people playing BF3 STILL would tend to disagree with you. And the millions that played the previous BF series of games where stats like KDR were reviewable by the players.

[Roadbeer]

Don't know if this was covered already, can't belive there are 3 pages on this.

Win / loss = (by itself, you have your ratio, move decimal point 2 places to the right and put a % sign on it and you have your percentage)

Math is hard.

[Belorion]

Roadbeer, on 18 April 2013 - 08:56 AM, said:

Don't know if this was covered already, can't belive there are 3 pages on this.

Win / loss = (by itself, you have your ratio, move decimal point 2 places to the right and put a % sign on it and you have your percentage)

Math is hard.

It doesn't have anything to do with the math. It is that KDR is prominently displayed on the stats page while other derived stats are not.

You may think that doesn't make a difference but it does.

Cognitive Science is hard.

[Roadbeer]

Belorion, on 18 April 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

You may think that doesn't make a difference but it does.

To who?

Quote

Cognitive Science is hard.

Absolutely doesn't apply here. You just looked that up didn't you?

Edited by Roadbeer, 18 April 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

All of the stats are bad. Kills don't necessarily mean skill. Assists don't mean skill. And wins/losses are outside of your control. Damage done per game isn't even a good measure of skill.

[Willie Sauerland]

Belorion, on 18 April 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

It doesn't have anything to do with the math. It is that KDR is prominently displayed on the stats page while other derived stats are not.

You may think that doesn't make a difference but it does.

Cognitive Science is hard.

I assume you are trying to communicate

in your Ad Hominem laced post

that the current meta of the game encourages

epeen stroking instead of actual team play

by making the KDR the focal point of the stats.

However, since communication isn't your strong suit,

perhaps I have misunderstood?

[Appogee]

Budor, on 18 April 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

I like how everyone ignored this post

I for one didn't ignore it. It was an obvious point and so I didn't think any further comment on it was necessary.

[Belorion]

Roadbeer, on 18 April 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Absolutely doesn't apply here. You just looked that up didn't you?

Of course it does. When looking at the stats page the user is presented with the kdr as a listed stat. It is a prominent feature, and therefor becomes a focus of the individual viewing the stats page. I could conduct a study group if you like but that seems a bit overkill.

I did not just look it up. My field (human computer interaction) is related to cognitive science.

[Willie Sauerland]

Belorion, on 18 April 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Of course it does. When looking at the stats page the user is presented with the kdr as a listed stat. It is a prominent feature, and therefor becomes a focus of the individual viewing the stats page. I could conduct a study group if you like but that seems a bit overkill.

I did not just look it up. My field (human computer interaction) is related to cognitive science.

Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Belorion, on 18 April 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

It doesn't have anything to do with the math. It is that KDR is prominently displayed on the stats page while other derived stats are not.

You may think that doesn't make a difference but it does.

Cognitive Science is hard.

Again, trends and statistics in the real world would tend to disprove your opinion given the success of a HUGE number of games where things like KDR were displayed/visible, so while cognitive science might be hard, your implication that you've somehow mastered it is clearly false.

We get your opinion. We honestly do. We just don't agree with it or the subjective way you view it. KDR can be useful to people and frankly I don't see people on these forums comparing epeens through KDR much if at all.

Epeen stroking usually comes in the form of self-inflated Elo estimations, number of "competitive 8-mans played" (especially in tournaments) and the occasional singular SS or two of a results page arguing about who was uber, who was taking the match seriously etc etc.

KDR isn't hurting this game, nor would WLR. Both can be utilized to identify trends in one's personal performance and outside of that, don't necessarily mean a ton.

If folks are thin skinned enough that some measure of their self-esteem is dependent on their stats, then they already have more problems that I'm worried about. Doesn't mean a hill of beans to me what's someone's "stats" are....why does it bother you?

I love having KDR, especially visible broken down by Mech, so I can use the information to help improve my play. Taking that away to shelter your tender heart, seems counter-intuitive from a Dev standpoint, considering no one else can see my KDR but me.

[Belorion]

Lukoi, on 18 April 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

If folks are thin skinned enough that some measure of their self-esteem is dependent on their stats, then they already have more problems that I'm worried about. Doesn't mean a hill of beans to me what's someone's "stats" are....why does it bother you?

It doesn't bother me.

Actually I would like to see the inclusion of recordable logs so more in-depth analysis of our matches is possible. (Which I stated earlier in the thread.)

They do not include other derived stats however. It doesn't make much sense to include this one over others. If elo does its job everyones krd will eventually tick closer to 1.

[Screech]

The real stat is KDR/WLR. Well not really but it does help clarify somethings.