179 replies to this topic

[Atheus]

Curccu, on 07 May 2013 - 06:28 AM, said:

If enemy is base tapping/capping it gives you about 3 options:
1. let them cap --> lose the game.
2. split your forces.
3. fall back to base with full force and give up your position.
So yes its tactical and buggies very very often choose that 1st option.

superior tactics = victory by any means within game rules. capping is just one of the many ways to win.

PS. I don't mind going down if it helps my team to win more than staying alive.

Yes, I see how base capping forces the enemy to make a decision, but the reality is, at this point this isn't really a team sport. "Winning" is meaningless, and yields little profit in comparison to killing. The guy who runs back to base will literally get less reward. They have to "take one for the team". The guy who decides to base rush also "takes one for the team", since he'll get less reward too, unless he gets off the base and joins the fight.

There really isn't anything you can say to make me think base rushers deserve my respect as brilliant tacticians. Regardless of what tactical advantage it may afford your team, it's pretty much the laziest thing you can possibly do while still contributing to a match, and frankly even if they're on my team, I'd prefer they just join ranks with me and fight. It's such a riot that in an attempt to justify cap rushing, some light pilots complain that the light mech just isn't suited for combat in a game dominated by the firepower of assaults and heavies, so all they can do is stay out of the fight and run to the base. Why pilot a light, then, if they're so bad? It's because they're lazy.

Look at the scores here: Spring Clean 'em up Tournament Leaderboard
Notice how the lights have very similar scores to mediums and heavies. They're a bit lower than assaults, but not massively so. The bottom line is in the hands of a skilled pilot, lights are plenty strong, if that's the kind of mech you enjoy. But they're scared to fight and die, so they make excuses and just do what's less risky pretending the game is to blame for their aversion to combat. If they want to be seen as amazing tacticians, learn how to fight in that light chassis, then I'll be impressed.

Dimento Graven put it amusingly:

Dimento Graven, on 03 May 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

...If you like capture so much, why not stick with Conquest?

I'll tell you why: You're lazy.

In Assault, there's only ONE square to stand on.
In Conquest, there's 5, and there being 4 whole other squares for you to have to go stand on is apparently too much effort. Because if you ONLY stand on ONE square in Conquest, and that's all you do, you only have a 20 percent chance of winning, where as with Assault, you've got at least a 50% chance, perhaps even more, depending on how many of the opposing team are DC'd during the game...

So, your NEW new title: The LAZY Cap Troll.

Congratulations. Your 'Stand on a Square' skills are the most feared throughout the Inner Sphere.

[zraven7]

Ok, the last question is very, very misleading. It's not about accomplishing victory through superior speed, but superior tactics.

[hammerreborn]

Atheus, on 07 May 2013 - 06:24 AM, said:

Only people who support the status quo are allowed to talk, huh? You're precious.

Edit: Sounds a little bit like

Except cappers aren't posting three new threads a day complaining about how people want to just kill each other instead of capping, so no, it doesn't sound like that at all.

And you're right, I hate losing. If you enjoy being a loser, a whiny QQer, and an all around pathetic player, then keep posting about how the cappers took away all your fun. It only makes us want to do it even more.

[Atheus]

hammerreborn, on 07 May 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

Except cappers aren't posting three new threads a day complaining about how people want to just kill each other instead of capping, so no, it doesn't sound like that at all.

And you're right, I hate losing. If you enjoy being a loser, a whiny QQer, and an all around pathetic player, then keep posting about how the cappers took away all your fun. It only makes us want to do it even more.

That's because cappers already have 2 game modes that suit their play style. Killers have none.

[zraven7]

Atheus, on 07 May 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

That's because cappers already have 2 game modes that suit their play style. Killers have none.

So, instead of spending your energy trying to get a TDM mode from the devs, you simply try to guilt players into ignoring a win condition? Nice.

[Zerberus]

Bottom line: A win is a win, and if it was by cap then you and your team deserve to have their Elo go down further and further every time for not doing anything about it, uintil you can all play hulk smash robots with the other people still learning to play the game.

When I can`t regularly walk right past the enemy team, literally through their line, to their base, and win by cap, IN A FRACKING ATLAS, then I'm obviously playing against people that don`t want to win, or don`t understand how, or just don`t care. The only thing they deserve is to lose.

Edited by Zerberus, 07 May 2013 - 08:34 AM.

[hammerreborn]

Atheus, on 07 May 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

That's because cappers already have 2 game modes that suit their play style. Killers have none.

Except you have 2 game modes that suit your play style. No respawns and win by kills. Just because you're too ******* lazy to head back to your base and kill me isn't MY problem, it's YOURS.

You could have your TDM if you came and shot me in the face, but you like losing too much apparently.

[Atheus]

zraven7, on 07 May 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

So, instead of spending your energy trying to get a TDM mode from the devs, you simply try to guilt players into ignoring a win condition? Nice.

What about this thread says I'm not interested in TDM? I'd be equally happy with Assault being adjusted to limit the relevance of quick caps, or a new game mode entirely.

This gets to the core of the issue, I guess. Right now, cap rushers have it nice and easy because in every assault game, most players want nothing to do with attacking or defending bases, so they try to ignore that element and play how they enjoy playing. When someone cap rushes, sometimes that gets ignored completely, sometimes someone goes back to chase him off, but pretty much never does the whole strategy revolve around attacking or defending bases.

If all the players who want nothing to do with bases get their own game mode, they'll stop playing "assault" and "conquest", which means the cap rushers will suddenly be in matches where the whole enemy team is there because they like attacking or defending bases more than they like attacking mechs. Things get a lot more complicated when your main objective is actually the center of attention.

So there. I understand your desire to make fighting oriented players who would just plain rather not deal with a cap rusher load into your capture-oriented matches. Without them, your matches would be a nightmare of 16 combat-averse light mechs screaming around the edges of the map trying to get to the enemy base before their own is captured, swirling in short skirmishes as they pass each other on the way to the enemy base. Once the warriors are gone, I wonder how much you'll enjoy your assault mode then.

hammerreborn, on 07 May 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Except you have 2 game modes that suit your play style. No respawns and win by kills. Just because you're too ******* lazy to head back to your base and kill me isn't MY problem, it's YOURS.

You could have your TDM if you came and shot me in the face, but you like losing too much apparently.

It makes you angry when people don't like what you like, huh. You're absolutely right that I have a problem with this game. I often have crappy matches that end before the fighting gets good because there's this second objective I want nothing to do with, and players like you who want everything to do with it. By the way, not wanting to hoof it back to my base in my assault mech rather than fighting the enemy right in front of me isn't lazy, it's logical. I'm pretty much done talking to you after this post. You don't seem rational enough to bother holding a discussion with, and it seems you haven't absorbed much of anything that has been said on this subject.

[zraven7]

Atheus, on 07 May 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

What about this thread says I'm not interested in TDM? I'd be equally happy with Assault being adjusted to limit the relevance of quick caps, or a new game mode entirely.

This gets to the core of the issue, I guess. Right now, cap rushers have it nice and easy because in every assault game, most players want nothing to do with attacking or defending bases, so they try to ignore that element and play how they enjoy playing. When someone cap rushes, sometimes that gets ignored completely, sometimes someone goes back to chase him off, but pretty much never does the whole strategy revolve around attacking or defending bases.

If all the players who want nothing to do with bases get their own game mode, they'll stop playing "assault" and "conquest", which means the cap rushers will suddenly be in matches where the whole enemy team is there because they like attacking or defending bases more than they like attacking mechs. Things get a lot more complicated when your main objective is actually the center of attention.

So there. I understand your desire to make fighting oriented players who would just plain rather not deal with a cap rusher load into your capture-oriented matches. Without them, your matches would be a nightmare of 16 combat-averse light mechs screaming around the edges of the map trying to get to the enemy base before their own is captured, swirling in short skirmishes as they pass each other on the way to the enemy base. Once the warriors are gone, I wonder how much you'll enjoy your assault mode then.



It makes you angry when people don't like what you like, huh. You're absolutely right that I have a problem with this game. I often have crappy matches that end before the fighting gets good because there's this second objective I want nothing to do with, and players like you who want everything to do with it. By the way, not wanting to hoof it back to my base in my assault mech rather than fighting the enemy right in front of me isn't lazy, it's logical. I'm pretty much done talking to you after this post. You don't seem rational enough to bother holding a discussion with, and it seems you haven't absorbed much of anything that has been said on this subject.

Again, you miss the point. We don't do this because we don't like combat. We do it for the win. I'd love to see a tactical match with each team trying to capture a base before the other, all the while defending their own. It's a thrill to get a cap when you know the enemy team as about to jump you, or to have to run from 4 mechs that were sent after you. You wanna send 4 atlases (atli?) after me at the base? Awesome. I'll either die, or do somethign spectacular and get away by a hair's breadth.

We aren't in this because we suck at combat. I don't even own an ECM mech. I love duking it out in my trebbie, or going toe-to-to with a Hunchie in my Jenner. However, I'm not going to do this at the cost of a strategically sound win.

You wane us fighting? Easy. Cut of our ability to cap. Use a strategic deployment, or a balanced team, or a good sniper, I don't care. You give me a reason not to cap, and I'll be there to fight you, and I'll grin while I'm doing it.

[hammerreborn]

Atheus, on 07 May 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

What about this thread says I'm not interested in TDM? I'd be equally happy with Assault being adjusted to limit the relevance of quick caps, or a new game mode entirely.

This gets to the core of the issue, I guess. Right now, cap rushers have it nice and easy because in every assault game, most players want nothing to do with attacking or defending bases, so they try to ignore that element and play how they enjoy playing. When someone cap rushes, sometimes that gets ignored completely, sometimes someone goes back to chase him off, but pretty much never does the whole strategy revolve around attacking or defending bases.

If all the players who want nothing to do with bases get their own game mode, they'll stop playing "assault" and "conquest", which means the cap rushers will suddenly be in matches where the whole enemy team is there because they like attacking or defending bases more than they like attacking mechs. Things get a lot more complicated when your main objective is actually the center of attention.

So there. I understand your desire to make fighting oriented players who would just plain rather not deal with a cap rusher load into your capture-oriented matches. Without them, your matches would be a nightmare of 16 combat-averse light mechs screaming around the edges of the map trying to get to the enemy base before their own is captured, swirling in short skirmishes as they pass each other on the way to the enemy base. Once the warriors are gone, I wonder how much you'll enjoy your assault mode then.



It makes you angry when people don't like what you like, huh. You're absolutely right that I have a problem with this game. I often have crappy matches that end before the fighting gets good because there's this second objective I want nothing to do with, and players like you who want everything to do with it. By the way, not wanting to hoof it back to my base in my assault mech rather than fighting the enemy right in front of me isn't lazy, it's logical. I'm pretty much done talking to you after this post. You don't seem rational enough to bother holding a discussion with, and it seems you haven't absorbed much of anything that has been said on this subject.

[Caviel]

When planet possession is on the line, you're going to see MORE lights/quick capture groups when it becomes the path of least resistance to cap win over combat. You will lose the match, contract, and possibly planet so you damn well better be prepared for some sort of base defense. If you don't like being caught with your proverbial pants down in the middle of Alpine in a 60 kph mech, start piloting faster mechs or make sure your team compensates somehow.

Base capture is also a very effective way to deal with the current meta shift to slower moving jump jetting sniping mechs. Wait until the opposing team sets up an over-committed firing line position, then take the base out from underneath them. Don't like it? Same solution, play more defensively (Which does not mean stand in your own base the whole match) or bring a faster mech so you can do something about it.

Just because people don't like to pilot certain mechs or only want to play a certain way doesn't mean everyone else should be forced to comply with it. In other words:

Nerf paper, scissors are fine. -Rock

[zraven7]

Caviel, on 07 May 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

When planet possession is on the line, you're going to see MORE lights/quick capture groups when it becomes the path of least resistance to cap win over combat. You will lose the match, contract, and possibly planet so you damn well better be prepared for some sort of base defense. If you don't like being caught with your proverbial pants down in the middle of Alpine in a 60 kph mech, start piloting faster mechs or make sure your team compensates somehow.

Base capture is also a very effective way to deal with the current meta shift to slower moving jump jetting sniping mechs. Wait until the opposing team sets up an over-committed firing line position, then take the base out from underneath them. Don't like it? Same solution, play more defensively (Which does not mean stand in your own base the whole match) or bring a faster mech so you can do something about it.

Just because people don't like to pilot certain mechs or only want to play a certain way doesn't mean everyone else should be forced to comply with it. In other words:

Nerf paper, scissors are fine. -Rock

I love you. Run away with me.

[Atheus]

zraven7, on 07 May 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Again, you miss the point.

Actually, you never made your point for me to miss it.

Your point seems to be that if I don't like playing the way you play, tough luck. If you don't like playing the way I play, that's because I'm doing it wrong.

lol... yeah that sounds like a lot of fun, standing on the base, and running away when people come. Weird that some people don't find that entertaining, huh? It's like hide and seek for grown-ups!

Caviel, on 07 May 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

When planet possession is on the line...

Well for now, it's not, so I'll just keep doing what I enjoy. I can only hope by the time CW comes around there's a game mode that I can enjoy thoroughly. If you want to talk in circles some more, feel free. Maybe you can explain how to defend the base some more, or how I can stop losing if I stop valuing having fun so much and prioritize winning. Or, OR, OR, maybe you can just accept that PGI isn't accommodating all their players interests with their 2 "capture the base" game modes.

[zraven7]

Atheus, on 07 May 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Actually, you never made your point for me to miss it.

Your point seems to be that if I don't like playing the way you play, tough luck. If you don't like playing the way I play, that's because I'm doing it wrong.

lol... yeah that sounds like a lot of fun, standing on the base, and running away when people come. Weird that some people don't find that entertaining, huh? It's like hide and seek for grown-ups!


Well for now, it's not, so I'll just keep doing what I enjoy. I can only hope by the time CW comes around there's a game mode that I can enjoy thoroughly. If you want to talk in circles some more, feel free. Maybe you can explain how to defend the base some more, or how I can stop losing if I stop valuing having fun so much and prioritize winning. Or, OR, OR, maybe you can just accept that PGI isn't accommodating all their players interests with their 2 "capture the base" game modes.

Then stop ripping into the players who are capturing base, and start screaming at PGI. Everyone screams at us about how we're cowards and ruining the game, but when we say that's entirely within the rules, you claim amnesty for your actions, saying how PGI isn't doing what you want.

We're playing the game presented. You're screaming screaming at us for kicking in a goal while your goalie is midfield, justifying it by saying you shouldn't have to have a goalie.

*edited for spelling

Edited by zraven7, 07 May 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[Atheus]

zraven7, on 07 May 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Then stop ripping into the players who are capturing base, and start screaming at PGI. Everyone screams at us about how we're cowards and ruining the game, but when we say that's entirely within the rules, you claim amnesty for your actions, saying how PGI isn't doing what you want.

We're playing the game presented. You're screaming screaming at us for kicking in a goal while your goalie is midfield, justifying it by saying you shouldn't have to have a goalie.

*edited for spelling

Screaming huh? Trying to cast me as a tantrum-tossing toddler isn't making you look any more sophisticated.

Yes, I find cap rushing pathetic. I think players who find it entertaining are often pretty douchey - they almost universally make a special effort to cap asap when someone states their disdain for cap-rushers. They criticize you for neglecting to defend your base while making no effort to defend their own. The petty behavior of the majority of players who come to the defense of cap-rushing "tactics" only solidify my low estimation of them as players and as human beings, so if your goal is respect, you're not making any progress.

It's only natural I'd want to get away from players like you. We have different interests, and that's fine. I don't like or respect the way you play, you don't like or respect the way I play. Thus, we should probably be playing different game modes, if not different games. Agreed?

[zraven7]

Atheus, on 07 May 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Screaming huh? Trying to cast me as a tantrum-tossing toddler isn't making you look any more sophisticated.

Yes, I find cap rushing pathetic. I think players who find it entertaining are often pretty douchey - they almost universally make a special effort to cap asap when someone states their disdain for cap-rushers. They criticize you for neglecting to defend your base while making no effort to defend their own. The petty behavior of the majority of players who come to the defense of cap-rushing "tactics" only solidify my low estimation of them as players and as human beings, so if your goal is respect, you're not making any progress.

It's only natural I'd want to get away from players like you. We have different interests, and that's fine. I don't like or respect the way you play, you don't like or respect the way I play. Thus, we should probably be playing different game modes, if not different games. Agreed?

First, "screaming" was not an attempt to cast you as a toddler, and the "you're" was directed at the general group of players vilifying players who capture. It was meant as an expression of exasperation, not an insult. I apologize if it came off in a different light.

Second, I have absolutely no problem with TDM mode being implemented. I'd likely play it just as much as any other mode.

Third, honestly, on Tourmaline especially, I usually rush the other team's base as a defense. If the other team does the same, Either I'll run into them halfway, or I'll be able to start capping their base as a response.

I do what is STRATEGICALLY SOUND. I do not shy away from combat if combat is what's needed, and I will form up with the team if that's the best method of a win for that match.

However, using this game as a meter for someones worth as a human being is pretty screwed up, dude. I don't really have a counterpoint for that one.

It's a game, keep it about the game.

[Hurthammer]

I'm sorry, well not really, that I find humor in a lance of assaults walking up the middle of the map right into the enemy base and capping. If the bad guys didn't see it and stop it.. that's on them. I also can see the other side in that the lance of lights hauling butt right at lay on to go fast cap. It's a bit of a let down, but hey, it's a condition of winning that is openly stated at the start of the match and I accept that (after a few cuss words) and launch a new match. It's not like we aren't in a new game with in minutes or less. I play for fun and you can't stop me from having said fun.

[zraven7]

Hurthammer, on 07 May 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

I'm sorry, well not really, that I find humor in a lance of assaults walking up the middle of the map right into the enemy base and capping. If the bad guys didn't see it and stop it.. that's on them. I also can see the other side in that the lance of lights hauling butt right at lay on to go fast cap. It's a bit of a let down, but hey, it's a condition of winning that is openly stated at the start of the match and I accept that (after a few cuss words) and launch a new match. It's not like we aren't in a new game with in minutes or less. I play for fun and you can't stop me from having said fun.

You're more than allowed your cuss words. Heck, I say em too when it happens to me. :-)

[Hurthammer]

Indeed. It's nothing to blow a gasket over. Get over yourself and launch a new game. Not too difficult, eh?

[Atheus]

Hurthammer, on 07 May 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Indeed. It's nothing to blow a gasket over. Get over yourself and launch a new game. Not too difficult, eh?

No, it's not difficult, but a prematurely capped out match takes about 5 minutes from the time you hit launch. I would say about 1 in 10 matches are prematurely capped out (more or less depending on your ELO). Valuing one's own time is not self-absorption, it's self-respect. The more times a game disappoints like that, the faster people will lose interest.