464 replies to this topic

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

Good list, but I think you need to take into account some of the major leagues with added restrictions such as weight, number of a single chassis allowed, and weapons/equipment limitations. Several mechs get pulled up from lower tiers and become first stringers - Cicadas, Trebuchets, Yen lo Wang, Kintaros, possibly Quickdraws, other Cataphracts, and Stalkers come to mind. These mechs are fairly common either in low weight drop decks or when jumpjets are not allowed

[Deathz Jester]

is this the tryhard thread?

[MavRCK]

Febrosian R Gillingham, on 02 October 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

Good list, but I think you need to take into account some of the major leagues with added restrictions such as weight, number of a single chassis allowed, and weapons/equipment limitations. Several mechs get pulled up from lower tiers and become first stringers - Cicadas, Trebuchets, Yen lo Wang, Kintaros, possibly Quickdraws, other Cataphracts, and Stalkers come to mind. These mechs are fairly common either in low weight drop decks or when jumpjets are not allowed

Then you need a tier list for every tournament. In my videos, I explain the principles and what type of tournament I make my decisions on. Watching the videos is much more useful than reading a list.

[Flagrant]

Well done OP. I like your list. The only tier 1 mech I have from that list is the Atlas DDC and agree it's the best mech in the game. Stats wise my DDC is way better than any of my other mechs which are tier 2 and tier 3.

Edited by Flagrant, 03 October 2013 - 04:27 PM.

[Nine-Ball]

MavRCK, on 02 October 2013 - 08:40 PM, said:

Umm.. No.. Jumpjets are defacto needed for competitive play.

Point taken, since I don't compete in competitive matches!

Quote

But in a non-JJ mech, you can either forward / back ... or do mini-circles.. all of which are slower than poptarts. We all know how to do this in the old K2 dual gauss sniper and then we switched to the 3d..

Why would we go back to the old sniper? Why would we choose an inferior sniper build like the gauss 2 LL over 2 gauss or ballistic / ppc.

Sorry buddy you're way out of the meta right now..

Exactly, I would have made that point as well (using specific mechs better suited for certain roles), but I didn't want to put too much into my reply. Just more pointing it out cause it never seems to get mentioned.

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Smart players will turn their right torsos away... umm.. I explained this very clearly in my prior videos and why this is a huge advantage...

I see your points, but I can't let this view be left unchallenged.

Sorry but I never watched your videos. And hey, no problem with correcting my statements that you feel are wrong. I don't mind being corrected on things by people who know what they're talking about better than me. Anyways, without derailing the thread, I still argue that the X1 is on the level of the 3D regardless of whether or not it has jumpjets.... BECAUSE I CAN (and because I'm rather attached to my X1)!

[MavRCK]

Cryll Ankiseth, on 03 October 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Sorry but I never watched your videos. And hey, no problem with correcting my statements that you feel are wrong. I don't mind being corrected on things by people who know what they're talking about better than me. Anyways, without derailing the thread, I still argue that the X1 is on the level of the 3D regardless of whether or not it has jumpjets.... BECAUSE I CAN (and because I'm rather attached to my X1)!

You might like the videos and see if they help you with playing the 1X. Let me know what you think is good and what needs improvement.

[MavRCK]

This is my latest post on the state of the gauss rifle. I've always liked it more as a brawler's right arm weapon rather than a sniper's weapon of choice, kind of like Kai Allard's version of his dad's Yenlowang. Unfortunately, even with our shared super mechwarrior eurasian genes, the new gauss rifle isn't something worth bringing out at the moment!

Quote

So I've put in 121 matches with the Orions and 3 variants are now mastered. During this time I've had the chance to compare gauss, ac5, ac10, dual ac5, etc but in particular try to master the gauss rifle and its new mechanic. I have almost 3 days, 52% hit rate, and over 110,000 dmg done using the gauss rifke since stats were implemented. Note that much of my play is solo queue and not 4 mans nor 12 mans as I gather detail for my tier lists.

The new gauss rifle mechanic is clunky and unintuitive. The charge time is too long to consistenly catch laterally moving mechs and the time to fire feels different than the time to charge - lag? Small, last minute adjustments are tough because one often runs out of time to fire. Indications that the gauss is ready to fire such as sound, visual displays are difficult to hear, see especially in the heat of battle. Moreover, these feedbacks or lack of make it difficult to develop an intuitive feel of the weapon ie hard to master.

Even if the gauss rifle is mastered. What is the point? It's dps was harshly nerfed to effectively 3dps or less due to clunky recharge mechanism ( 15 dmg / 4s recycle + 0.5 sec charge + up to 0.5 sec to fire + lag + time to release mouse and re-press mouse button min 0.2 ). It takes so long to charge it's next to useless up close versus fast mechs and even just slugging away while brawling. It's easy to miss shots because you don't know if it's charged or working properly. It's heavy, expensive, fragile and blows up damaging your own mech.

The new gauss rifle isn't worth the drawbacks and that's a shame. This heavy, large, expensive weapon role has been almost eliminated from the battlefield.

My suggestions would be:

1. Decrease charge time to 0.25 sec
2. Decrease time to fire to 0.25 sec ( becomes a quick hold and release mechanism ) - charge time should always equal time to fire
3. Decrease recycle time to 2.5 sec ( needs a dps bump to make it worth taking and a high skill cap should have its rewards )
4. Increase sound volume of charge time - like PPC loud
5. Make a cockpit visual more noticeable like electricity appearing or the group icon flash green than just change red to green.

I think these changes would make it a good weapon for ground-based sniping and viable for brawling too while still too unwieldly for jump-sniping to be taken over the other ballistics in favour at the moment. Variety is good.

Remember balance is best served by medium buffs and small nerfs. Sledgehammer nerfs swing the game balance too wildly and unpredictably!

[giganova]

Iron Harlequin, on 02 October 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

is this the tryhard thread?

Even when I bump your topic, nothing happens, it's beyond help. I must not be trying hard enough.

Edited by giganova, 08 October 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[Deathz Jester]

giganova, on 08 October 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

Even when I bump your topic, nothing happens, it's beyond help. I must not be trying hard enough.

lol this isn't my topic

[giganova]

Yeah, no {Scrap}. I was agreeing with you. OP tries too hard to label his tier list as being scientific, but his data collection methods are dubious at best.

Edited by giganova, 09 October 2013 - 03:59 AM.

[MavRCK]

Updated!

http://www.twitch.tv...avrck/c/3089446

MavRCK's Mechwarrior Online MWO Mech Tier List

Week of 15/10/2013 - Patch Number: 1.2.247 15-October-2013

The Phoenix Project Rises From The Ashes!

Guests: LethalRose, PEEFSmash !

=========================================================


- News: Phoenix Project is here, Why I supported the Phoenix Project

- Preview of PP: Locust, Shadowhawk, Thunderbolt, Battlemaster

- Balance Issues: Single Heatsinks, Gauss Rifle, Non-JJ Mechs (the mobility issue)

- Skills and Tactics: Option Select, Timed Tactics, Light Scouting, Heavy and Assault Scouting (!?! - Yes, it exists!), Rotating Around Corners

- Mech Tier List: Updates


=========================================================

[Jman5]

Nice job Mav. Btw, it sounded a little like you weren't totally on board with the Kintaro's role as a tier 1 medium.

I think it's a mech that is largely dependent on your team's overarching strategy, which is why it may not seem as strong in certain compositions. For example, I think a team like SJR is better off with something else because their strategy seems to focus on sticking together and overpowering their opponent's heavies and assaults. So the Hunchback 4P and Cent 9A work better for them.

However, on the flip side, what if your strategy is to focus on winning the light fight instead of the jump sniping fight? Adding a 116 kph streak boat to the mix turns a tossup into a one-sided slaughter. So by bringing one or two kintaros you are effectively hard countering their light team. They can no longer operate independent of the blob except as minor scouts. So while sure, they may be faster, that advantage is nullified the moment you step on their cap.

You don't even have to complete the cap as long as you can get one or two light kills. We did this against CSA in RHOD last week. we stepped on their base with our lights/kintaros. CSA's lights/mediums were forced to delay on their base while their main force pulled back. We got one or two kills and then ran the moment the big guns arrived. After that, we were up in kills, they had to guard their base because it was low, and we could just sit back and wait.

I like the think of the Kintaro's role as the light's big brother from the football team.

As a side note, one of the funny quirks about the kintaro 18 is that it has a missile bay door in its center torso. If you keep it closed you get 10% damage reduction on your CT, which is pretty neat.

[MavRCK]

Jman5, on 16 October 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

Nice job Mav. Btw, it sounded a little like you weren't totally on board with the Kintaro's role as a tier 1 medium.

<snipped>

As a side note, one of the funny quirks about the kintaro 18 is that it has a missile bay door in its center torso. If you keep it closed you get 10% damage reduction on your CT, which is pretty neat.

Hey Jman, Grats on the win ,

So I wake up after a long, hard shift and you give me this to think about -- thanks, I was hoping to rest my brain

The KTO-18 anti-light role is very effective - it's brutal, it's nasty, it's harsh, it's ugly, it's like a horrible touchdown dance or what Ravens fans had to endure from you-know-who... !

So the strategy is good and viable, but I'm concerned that it's not a sound strategy. That is, I feel that the strategy relies on a failure of your opposing team - a mistake - in order for it to be viable. I'd prefer if the strategy revolves around a position of strength - that is, your opposing team does everything correct and still you beat them.

Does this make sense?

Also, in the Launch Sept 17, 2013 Tier List, we touched upon mech roles and the idea that in an ideal world, you want to using less tonnage to achieve a kill or a victory - that is, you are more tonnage effective. Light beats medium which beats heavy which beats assault which beats everything is the fundamental starting point of my analysis.

(So when you're using a KTO-18 55-ton mech to beat 2-3 lights with your 2-3 lights, what sacrifice was needed to employ this mech? What is the result to your team composition? How this affects set match drops like 3-3-3-3 versus tonnage drops like 800 tons or 500 tons is going to be an issue and will affect this consideration, too.)

In summary, the use of the KTO-18 requires a mistake to be made by your opponents (two mistakes actually... I'll talk about that in the next Tier List episode...) and requires an adjustment to the core strategy that a light mech should ideally matched and should ideally succeed versus the same or higher-tonned opponent.

That all said, I have a lovely KTO-18 with an XL 350 engine in my mech bay - I didn't upgrade to FF or the XL 360 engine as I wanted some future-proofing...

Edited by MavRCK, 16 October 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Jman5]

MavRCK, on 16 October 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Hey Jman, Grats on the win ,

So I wake up after a long, hard shift and you give me this to think about -- thanks, I was hoping to rest my brain

The KTO-18 anti-light role is very effective - it's brutal, it's nasty, it's harsh, it's ugly, it's like a horrible touchdown dance or what Ravens fans had to endure from you-know-who... !

So the strategy is good and viable, but I'm concerned that it's not a sound strategy. That is, I feel that the strategy relies on a failure of your opposing team - a mistake - in order for it to be viable. I'd prefer if the strategy revolves around a position of strength - that is, your opposing team does everything correct and still you beat them.

Does this make sense?

Also, in the Launch Sept 17, 2013 Tier List, we touched upon mech roles and the idea that in an ideal world, you want to using less tonnage to achieve a kill or a victory - that is, you are more tonnage effective. Light beats medium which beats heavy which beats assault which beats everything is the fundamental starting point of my analysis.

(So when you're using a KTO-18 55-ton mech to beat 2-3 lights with your 2-3 lights, what sacrifice was needed to employ this mech? What is the result to your team composition? How this affects set match drops like 3-3-3-3 versus tonnage drops like 800 tons or 500 tons is going to be an issue and will affect this consideration, too.)

In summary, the use of the KTO-18 requires a mistake to be made by your opponents (two mistakes actually... I'll talk about that in the next Tier List episode...) and requires an adjustment to the core strategy that a light mech should ideally matched and should ideally succeed versus the same or higher-tonned opponent.

That all said, I have a lovely KTO-18 with an XL 350 engine in my mech bay - I didn't upgrade to FF or the XL 360 engine as I wanted some future-proofing...

You have a good point and it was something I meant to bring up. You're right that the tonnage isn't free in tournament play. The downside to having an uber strong mobile force is that you weaken your assault/heavy group. So instead of having 4 highlanders, you might have 2 highlanders and 2 victors.

However, I would argue that if you play them in a largely defensive role, it partially offsets that tonnage weakness.

With regards to relying on your opponent to make a mistake, you're not necessarily wrong, but I don't think that makes it a bad play. The kintaros/light start out as your early game rush. You send them out to push the base, harass, and see what your opponent is up to. Best case scenario you just straight up win, or get a kill and get off. However against a good team that scouts and responds appropriately, you simply transition into the next stage of the game. You use your mobility advantage to ping pong around the map forcing their assaults to keep repositioning (since their lights can't go toe-to-toe with you). It's not an "All-in" strategy where if the initial rush fails it's game over. Meanwhile, your assaults are playing defensively and are strong enough to propel any sort of counter-cap that comes your way. Assuming you don't blow it and charge straight into their assault team, (which I did vs SJR) the only realistic counter is to simply sit your entire team on the cap and hope for the best.

Basically, I think having a really strong mobile element to your team can prevent your opponents from doing anything offensive the entire game. So in a sense it is almost irrelevant how strong your team is in a straight up fight if you never engage in one. That said, it is stronger and weaker on different maps and different spawn locations. Forest Colony and River City are so small it makes mobility less important.

Edited by Jman5, 16 October 2013 - 04:19 PM.

[MavRCK]

Jman5, on 16 October 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

You have a good point and it was something I meant to bring up. You're right that the tonnage isn't free in tournament play. The downside to having an uber strong mobile force is that you weaken your assault/heavy group. So instead of having 4 highlanders, you might have 2 highlanders and 2 victors.

However, I would argue that if you play them in a largely defensive role, it partially offsets that tonnage weakness.

With regards to relying on your opponent to make a mistake, you're not necessarily wrong, but I don't think that makes it a bad play. The kintaros/light start out as your early game rush. You send them out to push the base, harass, and see what your opponent is up to. Best case scenario you just straight up win, or get a kill and get off. However against a good team that scouts and responds appropriately, you simply transition into the next stage of the game. You use your mobility advantage to ping pong around the map forcing their assaults to keep repositioning (since their lights can't go toe-to-toe with you). It's not an "All-in" strategy where if the initial rush fails it's game over. Meanwhile, your assaults are playing defensively and are strong enough to propel any sort of counter-cap that comes your way. Assuming you don't blow it and charge straight into their assault team, (which I did vs SJR) the only realistic counter is to simply sit your entire team on the cap and hope for the best.

Basically, I think having a really strong mobile element to your team can prevent your opponents from doing anything offensive the entire game. So in a sense it is almost irrelevant how strong your team is in a straight up fight if you never engage in one. That said, it is stronger and weaker on different maps and different spawn locations. Forest Colony and River City are so small it makes mobility less important.

Well, your tactics is a great example of another role mediums bring to competitive play... something that PGI said they want to ensure.. but it'll be rules and tournaments that make it so.

You're right about the maps, too, playing a role in the choice of mechs. Right now, we have to take general purpose mechs for any and all maps.. Eventually, we'll be able to tailor our mechs for the maps we face.. A whole new level of complexity...

I think our discussion highlights how important good light piloting is... essential to a successful MWO team.

[Elscorcho]

Hi MavRCK...I was wondering why is the VTR_9B is much higher on the tier list than the VTR-9S when they have almost identical hardpoints? I mean both can use the AC20 right arm setup. While the 9B has an extra hardpoint in the right arm, it is uses less when you use an AC20, whereas the 9S has extra missile tube you can use ? Thanks for the time.

[MavRCK]

Elscorcho, on 18 October 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Hi MavRCK...I was wondering why is the VTR_9B is much higher on the tier list than the VTR-9S when they have almost identical hardpoints? I mean both can use the AC20 right arm setup. While the 9B has an extra hardpoint in the right arm, it is uses less when you use an AC20, whereas the 9S has extra missile tube you can use ? Thanks for the time.

Hi! I replied in the reddit forums. There's no reason - I made a mistake - brain fart. Thanks for pointing out the error! Will update.

[Chavette]

Febrosian R Gillingham, on 02 October 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

These mechs are fairly common either in low weight drop decks or when jumpjets are not allowed

There are leauges with JJ restrictions? God help me...

[MavRCK]

I'm going to start doing some interviews with some great pilots to discuss their views on the tier list, their favourite mechs, their layouts and why they think they can carry a game in their chosen mechs.

First up, Lord Ryan Steel - with his Misery and Victor-9K.

Stay tuned!

Some videos showing Ryan playing his Misery and his Victor-9k: http://www.twitch.tv...avrck/c/3106978

Edited by MavRCK, 19 October 2013 - 12:15 AM.

[MavRCK]

Here's a link to my ideas of a Solaris 7 game feature: http://mwomercs.com/...out-s7-for-pgi/

What do you guys think?