464 replies to this topic

[zraven7]

I really don't think a tier list is appropriate for this game.

Considering that every mech is just a set of possibilities based on hardpoints and engine capabilities, the mechs themselves cannot be ranked against each other. One might argue that this is a ranking of potential capable builds, but again, that falls to much to possibility.

A large portion of this game is Pilot Skill. Builds that work wonderfully for one person do quite poorly for another.

I think any sort of tier list is honestly misleading, and could give new pilots the wrong idea.

[Kmieciu]

qki, on 13 May 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

only some people still think that it's all about the digital peen size (aka DPS). Chaos is a difficult thing to measure, and light 'mechs excell at chaos.

Also - most of the damage is superflous, unless you do pinpoint damage to only the rellevant locations 100% of the time, and that is a myth.

blowing an arm off a mech does not directly affect its destruction, but how about legging it? If it's an assault, that is helpful, but if it's a light it can be invaluable.

Comparing a RVN-3L and a SDR-5D is like apples and oranges - the 3L is a hunter/striker, while the 5D is a harasser.

If you judge a 5D by its ability to stand toe-to-toe with a JR-7F, you might as well judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree.

It's not about DPS. It's about burst damage.
Like a sudden burst damage that legs you, or destroys your light mech.

Light mechs are very easy to compare in MWO, since THEY ALL REACH THE SAME SPEED.
It does not matter if you've got 25 or 35 tonnes - 150 kph is the max you can go. You cannot hope to outrun the light mech on the other team.

When it get down to brass tacks, it's about who can leg the other guy the fastest. That's why we are now seeing PPC Jenners/Ravens/Cicadas/Spiders in 8vs8 games.

Edited by Kmieciu, 13 May 2013 - 04:01 AM.

[qki]

well - it is justified to some extent.

The cn-9a for example, has 2 energy, and 3 missile hardpoints in its common ML/SRM6 loadout.

By comparison, the tbt-7m has 3 energy, and 3 missile points, but the LT one is a single-tube narc, ill-suited for an SRM6 (it fires 1 missile at a time, though with zero spread and true straight trajectory).

Thus some mechs are better suited to certain loadouts, and that is the key factor here. But some roles are so far apart it is ointless to compare them straight up.

[MavRCK]

qki, on 13 May 2013 - 02:02 AM, said:

And since this claims to be a competetive list, how is cost a factor here? The price tag does not affect performance, and unless you are planning to use 4 or 5 energy hardpoints, instead of 3E/2-3M, there is no difference between the 5J and 7M.

the 3L is a hunter/striker, while the 5D is a harasser

huh? what? Are you on something?

If you watched the video and took a small amount of effect to open MWO or mwo smurfy's mechlab you'd see clearly why the 5J is inferior to the 7M.

You're posting without the experience and understanding of tournament play. B Should I make a list specifically for you? I'll put qki-awesomes at the top of the list... ok?

[zraven7]

MavRCK, on 14 May 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

huh? what? Are you on something?

If you watched the video and took a small amount of effect to open MWO or mwo smurfy's mechlab you'd see clearly why the 5J is inferior to the 7M.

You're posting without the experience and understanding of tournament play. B Should I make a list specifically for you? I'll put qki-awesomes at the top of the list... ok?

Hi. I play a 5J and a 7M. I've elited them both. I think I'll speak now.

They are, frankly, not comparable. They fill 2 different roles. This is why I think a tier list for this game is not a good idea.

The 7m is a striker/skirmisher, when built along the average guidelines (300-325 engine, most or all JJs, 2 srm6's, usally with artemis, 2 or 3 medium or medium pulse lasers). It excells at taking on mechs larger or slower than it, using it's JJs to maneuver into superior positions, and to track damaged armor sections.

Then 5j, on the other hand, is a complete crap-shoot.

There is no average build for it. Some use a single SRM6 and deal with the hose. Heck, it's kind of like cheap artemis, if you can work with it. Some rock a single SSRM2. Some use 5 lasers. Some just do 2 PPC's and enjoy a medium poptart.

The point is, you're comparing a mech with a fairly standard build (or 2 standard builds come end of month, some will run BAP/Streak Trebs) with one that allows for a huge variety of builds.

I, personally, run my 5J with 1 ERppc and 2 Medium pulse lasers. Great Heat efficiency, does well against lights, can snipe, and is excellent at striking specific armor plates. Tends to get less damage, but similar kills and assists, to the 7m, due to the increased precision.

The tier list is not a good idea, and will merely help to enforce the false idea of superior established builds. It culls experimentation. Any build can be great if it suits the pilots capabilities.

Stop insulting people for seeing things differently than you. It makes you look bad. A lot.

Edited by zraven7, 14 May 2013 - 11:00 AM.

[qki]

[Redacted]

A small amount of effect? What the hell is that?
5J inferior to the 7M - then why the hell is the 5J so much higher on your self-proclaimed pro tier list than the 7M?

[Redacted]

Edited by Niko Snow, 14 May 2013 - 12:23 PM.

[MavRCK]

New list posted: http://mwomercs.com/...-12219-hud-fix/

I can update the original post if people prefer or just put up the new list in a new post.

[MavRCK]

Updated because 7Raven is trolling and Prosperity likes to listen to trolls.

Sorry to all the people who actually find this useful.






http://www.twitch.tv...avrck/c/2283839

Week of 14/05/2013 - Patch Number: ?1.2.219- Hud Fix - Mech Tier List


Competitive Tier List

Light Mechs

Raven3L, JennerF, Spider5D, Commando2D, JennerF( C),JennerD-K, Raven2X-4X, Spider5K-5V, Death Knell Commando Hero Mech, Commando1B-1D-3A



Medium Mechs

Cicada-3M, <Centurion9A>, Trebuchet5J, Hunchback4P, Hunchback4SP, Centurion9AL-9D, The X-5 Cicada Hero Mech, Hunchback4G-4H-4J, Cicada2A-2B-3C, Trebuchet7M-3C-5N-7K



Heavy Mechs

Cataphract3D, Ilya Muromets Hero Mech, CatapultK2, CatapultA1, JagermechJM6S, Cataphract4X-2X-1X, JagermechJM6A-JM6DD, Dragon5N(C)-1C-1N-5N-Fang-Flame,CatapultC1-C4



Assault Mechs

AtlasDDC, Highlander732-733P, Heavy Metal Highlander Hero Mech, Stalker3F, AtlasRS, <Misery>, Stalker5M, Highlander733-733C, AtlasD-K, Stalker3H-4N-5S, Awesome9M, Pretty Baby Awesome Hero Mech, Awesome8Q-8R-8T-8V




ECM Mechs

Raven3L, AtlasDDC, Cicada3M, Spider5D, Commando2D




Overall SoloQ Tier List (Ability to carry a match by oneself)

<Highlander732-733P>, AtlasDDC, Raven3L, Heavy Metal Highlander Hero Mech, Cataphract3D, Stalker3F, <Spider-5d>, Trebuchet5J, Ilya Muromets Hero Mech, Cicada-3M, CatapultK2, <Misery>, Stalker5M, Centurion9A, Hunchback4P, Hunchback4SP, JagermechJM6S



Changes: Centurion9A, Misery, Highlander732-733P, Spider-5d


Discussions: Weapon Hardpoint Placements, Costs of a Mech, Review of the Commando, Spider and Raven


Analysis of a Mech: Hardpoint Placements - Symmetry, Weight in a weight class, Engine Size, Maximum Armor, Utility, Mobility, Balance, Critical Slots

Edited by MavRCK, 15 May 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[Chalkman]

The list in this format is less effective than it could be, IMO. There is a big drop at certain points in a wieght classes list, for example:

MavRCK, on 15 May 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Light Mechs

Raven3L, JennerF, Spider5D, Commando2D, JennerF( C),JennerD-K, Raven2X-4X, Spider5K-5V, Death Knell Commando Hero Mech, Commando1B-1D-3A

Doesn't seem very good to me because the first 4 mechs are clearly all viable and pilot skill will be the primary determinant in a fight between these mechs. However, much beyond that and the usefulness of a mech drops off precipitously. Something like this might be in order:

Most Competitive Lights: Raven3L, JennerF, Spider5D
Less Competitive Lights: Commando2D, JennerD-K
Non-Competitive Lights: Raven2X-4X, Spider5K-5V, Death Knell Commando Hero Mech, Commando1B-1D-3A

This is just an example, and obviously people will feel differently about where certain mechs should go, but my general feel is that would be a better system of tiers than just a list. This type of classification would show where the big drop offs in mech usefulness are, so people think that only the top mech of each tier is good, because there are plenty of good builds out there.

Edited by Chalkman, 15 May 2013 - 01:28 PM.

[Dan Nashe]

I don't understand why the jenner F is substantially better (different from? ) the jenner f (c)? Aren't they identical?

I believe the 5j is probably better because of somethings like the 3 ppc in one arm build? (Perfect convergence). Unlike the 7m which can't focus as well if it has to lead the target and weapons are on diff arms.


Second thought: for new players the list is helpful because they know the 3l isn't a mistake and can think carefully about other options and know they should think really hard about non 2d commandos. This doesn't mean you shouldn't take a kaeger, but you can at least see that maybe it is considered to have weaknesses.

Player skill unquestionably matters more than mech choice, but you can still have valid discussions about mech choice.

On th other hand, it can't be said enough that this is about set drop deck competitive play ina particlar league, with the current meta in a game that still changes constantly. It's a great starting point for thought not a super "this is the absolute list." And I am sure the OP knows tha. This is why it's altered weekly even if there are no big game changes, as thought and gameplay evolves.

Edited by DanNashe, 15 May 2013 - 01:34 PM.

[WolvesX]

Good job on the tier list, well at least the try =)

Edited by WolvesX, 15 May 2013 - 03:08 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

i don't find this useful.

this is what i think of your tierlist:

http://i60.photobuck...zps4b6f94ec.jpg
http://i60.photobuck...zpsca9195c4.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps31ea8479.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps4076943e.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps672625a3.jpg

and that's supposedly the worst assault mech in your list.
havent even posted about the AWS 8R which kicks serious ***

seriously, if you can't get a good build going why bother to categorize

[Keifomofutu]

Mazzyplz, on 15 May 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

i don't find this useful.

this is what i think of your tierlist:

http://i60.photobuck...zps4b6f94ec.jpg
http://i60.photobuck...zpsca9195c4.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps31ea8479.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps4076943e.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps672625a3.jpg

and that's supposedly the worst assault mech in your list.
havent even posted about the AWS 8R which kicks serious ***

seriously, if you can't get a good build going why bother to categorize

One-off examples of a good game do not prove that a build or mech is consistently better or worse than another one. And certainly not one-off examples from a single pilot.

"Well no because I had this one game and everyone let me shoot them in the back so this is the best mech ever". That's you.

[Mazzyplz]

Keifomofutu, on 15 May 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

One-off examples of a good game do not prove that a build or mech is consistently better or worse than another one. And certainly not one-off examples from a single pilot.

"Well no because I had this one game and everyone let me shoot them in the back so this is the best mech ever". That's you.

that's why i bother to post several of these. you mean several off? you mean every other game off examples? i can do badly with it, but that's all on me, this mech is great.

if it was the worst really i should be dying a lot more than killing, right? i should be going against superior foes every match my stats should be appaling then, because it's only 1 or 2 times that i managed to get kills
total fluke. (btw if you wanna know damage per match average divide total damage / matches played - that's 298 for 8t, 341 8r, 303 9m - including good and bad showings - laser build should come up lower #s - also regarding killratio, you can't realistically get kills every single match, even with high damage due to loss or killsteal)

i'll be the first to say i'm not that good a pilot.

if the enemy was so easy to shoot why didnt the highlanders in my team or jagermechs do it?
i guess everyone was a noob. except me. but my elo bracket is well set in, i have been playing only assault since november

tier list is bollocks, guy above is right; all it does is give noobs the wrong idea

it's even worse than the tierlist from street fighter

different people work different mechs in their own way, and different builds make comparison pointless



no, i don't want you to move the AWS up the list at all
it's the list itself that just doesn't work


ps. it's also worth of noting that being hard to use does not make a mech any worse than other mechs, it just means it's hard to use - is the AWS hard to learn? absolutely. make no mistake about it. it's hardmode.
that doesn't mean it's the worst, that's matter of opinion

Edited by Mazzyplz, 16 May 2013 - 05:03 AM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

The awesome is a terrible mech up against people/teams that actually know what they are doing, nobody uses it.
Having played in several third party leagues, i have yet to see a team field one, because there are much better options available to them.

And for clarity, it's not because of it's slots or agility. It's because of its model compared with the other mechs within it's weight class.

Edited by DV McKenna, 16 May 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

yeah i admit it's bad for 8 man. i meant as pug i don't play 8 man - theres only so much room for not minmaxed in 8 man.

but for pugging it's far from it, and besides the weight class matching is gone. that was true when assault always fought assault. now that's no longer the case

Edited by Mazzyplz, 16 May 2013 - 12:32 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

i'll just leave these here;
more total flukes from the worst mech in the game

http://i60.photobuck...zps435e40d3.png
http://i60.photobuck...zps699a95b2.png
http://i60.photobuck...zpsaab4775a.png

these are from today, this last playing session

[Hammerfinn]

I have no argument with discussing the relative merits of various mechs, and I enjoy reading these tier lists.

However, I really feel this doesn't belong in the new players section. No mech is fundamentally "better" than another, and all these lists do for new players is make them think that they have to play the most popular mechs.

[MavRCK]

People who contribute, including you, are demonstrating their love of the game and the community. Let's try and work together to better it and make it easier for new people to experience the game and fall in love with it as we have.

Now on to the list:

1) People spend real money $$ and time on this game. New players need our advice on how to spend their money $$.
2) Some mechs have a clear advantage - ton for ton - skill for skill
3) This list organizes and clarifies which mechs are best value / money $$ / time invested / worth learning for competitive tournament play or solo queue play.
4) The Jenner F © is a Jenner F chassis, but you can only buy it for real money $$ - if you can spending $$ then buy the Jenner F © over the Jenner F
5) Let's help new players learn this game quickly and identify the mechs most ideal to learn the game with and invest their hard-earned money and time into.
6) I do not want to discuss layouts - some are tournament specific (aka TOP SECRET!!! ) and best builds becomes even more controversial, convoluted and clouded for simple list discussion.
7) Lists are highly controversial and I encourage everyone to discuss the mechs (not the list) and explain your rationale in detail so new players (and old) can understand the nuances
8) Everyone who posts, I encourage you to list your tournament and 8-man teams and achievements and if possible post screenshots of your team's composition / mechs you brought to the tournaments. In other words, put up or ...
9) Repeat: Let's help new players learn this game quickly.
10) I hope this discussion of the mechs will help expediate balance changes to the different mechs, from layouts to hit box sizes, availability of utility / mobility enhancements such as ECM / JJ - I think overall this will lead to a faster development of the game.
11) I hope this helps you all learn the game quickly and enjoy it more.

=====================


No phear Spider 5D straight-up in-your-face brawl versus your typical Awesome:

http://www.twitch.tv...avrck/c/2292506

Would I do this with pretty much any other mech out there? No chance!!

(This guy spent $25 on this Pretty Baby mech - he deserves a great mech.)


=================

I have no influence on House Marik's choice of mechs during last week's Last Mech Standing match (www.lastmechstanding.com) . House Marik choose what mechs and composition according the rules which they felt would give them the best chance of beating KaoS Legion:

Quote

Drop 1: 575 to 625 - Capping Allowed
Drop 2: 350 to 375 - No Capping
Drop 3: 475 to 500 - Capping Allowed

Here are the screenshots + videos and I want to point out, that while PPCs are dominate at the moment, I took a 733 Highlander with Gauss, 2 Large Lasers, 3 SRM4s to brawl. It's not a Tier 1 assault! Skill + luck > mech.

http://www.twitch.tv...poloc/c/2283229 (What a nail biter!!!)

http://www.twitch.tv...poloc/c/2283224 (Patience, patience.. patience.... Welcome to hell!!!)





Hint: Yes, Tier 1,2,3 are coming (Thanks Qki for the help and suggestions!)

Edited by MavRCK, 16 May 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Chalkman]

Maybe beyond just Tier 1, 2, 3 we should have role grouping for PUGs? For eight mans, you need to have certain weight class quotas, so breaking it down into weight classes makes sense. But for PUG games, such restrictions don't exist currently, so you might have scouting tiers, brawling tiers, sniping tiers, support tiers, ect.