81 replies to this topic

[Syllogy]

According to NGNG's podcast last week, and Bryan Ekman's twitter feed, Flamers are going to have some big changes... they might even become useful.

The Rundown:

• Flamers will not jump their heat when you fire them. Heat will slowly increase.
  
• Flamers will generate more heat to the enemy mech than to you.
  
• Flamers will not push the enemy mech to more than 90% of their heat threshold.
  
• More Flamers will only generate heat to the enemy mech faster, but will not push their mech over 90%.
  
• A powered down enemy will not generate heat when hit with flamers, but will still take damage.

https://twitter.com/...990327016910848
https://twitter.com/...990377910571009
Links courtesy of Thontor.

[Spheroid]

Amazing, these are all sane sensible gameplay changes. Lets see if they can pull it off.

[Tennex]

flamers shouldt just counter energy loadouts.
its going to be a bad mechanic.

PGI is really good at making these bad mechanics.

- if you get flamers, and you go up against someone using ballistic/missile weapons. you are screwed.
- if you get missiles, and you go up against someone who has ECM. you are screwed.


this is very binomial gameplay. its just bad game design.



It needs to simply increase the cooldown of weapons on the targeted mech

Edited by Tennex, 16 May 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[TungstenWall]

I wonder how long you can keep an enemy mech at 85%+ before overheating yourself. May be a good way to effectively nullify energy boats for short durations.


I would still prefer to have a Cone mechanic added to flamers too, but these possible patch notes are a step forward

Edited by TungstenWall, 16 May 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[Hammertrial]

TungstenWall, on 16 May 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I wonder how long you can keep an enemy mech at 85%+ before overheating yourself. May be a good way to effectively nullify energy boats for short durations.


I would still prefer to have a Cone mechanic added to flamers too, but these possible patch notes are a step forward

Well seeing as you're going to be giving more heat to them than you, and not start off at 50% to their 12%, I'm going to guess a while. After they fire and shutdown you use that time to cool off, and resume when they do. You can probably permanently keep them at 90% this way unless they don't fire at all...in which case you got exactly what you wanted.

My 6 flamer jenner is going to be mained as soon as this change goes live.

[Vasces Diablo]

Hammertrial, on 16 May 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Well seeing as you're going to be giving more heat to them than you, and not start off at 50% to their 12%, I'm going to guess a while. After they fire and shutdown you use that time to cool off, and resume when they do. You can probably permanently keep them at 90% this way unless they don't fire at all...in which case you got exactly what you wanted.

My 6 flamer jenner is going to be mained as soon as this change goes live.

This concerns me greatly, as it's generally how I read these changes as well.

It's basically a "Stun lock" mechanic. Which is a bad mechanic IMO and is hugely frustrating to the player. If I get beaten be another player because they out pilot me or because I made a wrong move, I'm cool with that, that's enjoyable gameplay. However, if I get beaten because the opponents build (in whatever MMO) prevents me from being able to take any actions over an extended period while I am forced to sit and take damage.... That's getting into rage quit territory.

No, 90% is not shot down, but almost any action you take at the point to defend yourself will get you there, so it's basically the same thing. Just running produces heat and even ballistics generate hear... Except machine guns, but that doesn't really count as defending yourself.

Not that flamers don't need some love, but 90% is a bit high IMO.

[Hammertrial]

Vasces Diablo, on 16 May 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

This concerns me greatly, as it's generally how I read these changes as well.

It's basically a "Stun lock" mechanic. Which is a bad mechanic IMO and is hugely frustrating to the player. If I get beaten be another player because they out pilot me or because I made a wrong move, I'm cool with that, that's enjoyable gameplay. However, if I get beaten because the opponents build (in whatever MMO) prevents me from being able to take any actions over an extended period while I am forced to sit and take damage.... That's getting into rage quit territory.

No, 90% is not shot down, but almost any action you take at the point to defend yourself will get you there, so it's basically the same thing. Just running produces heat and even ballistics generate hear... Except machine guns, but that doesn't really count as defending yourself.

Not that flamers don't need some love, but 90% is a bit high IMO.

I don't care. Poptarting is a stupid mechanic. 6 PPC stalkers shouldn't even exist. Anything to make them cry and scream as much as they do when I cap their base will bring me great joy.

If those bads let me get within 90m of them, they deserve everything they get.

And the fact that you think flamers are going to do damage is laughable. It's a troll poptart mech, nothing more.

Edited by Hammertrial, 16 May 2013 - 09:02 AM.

[Butane9000]

Hrm... but what about damage?

[Deathlike]

90% might not be as high as you would think, given how the heat capacity in this game is part of the reason why 6 PPC boats exist.

However, I believe you would still be able to shoot 1 medium laser or 2 small lasers w/o being forced to shutdown. Strict PPC boats however would not be able to counter this at all.

Edit:
Also, AC20 boats would struggle to fire w/o shutting down.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 May 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Maliconus]

I am fine with this and I run hot all the time.... A 6 PPC Stalker at 90% heat can and will still Alpha you in the Face.

[Hammertrial]

Maliconus, on 16 May 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I am fine with this and I run hot all the time.... A 6 PPC Stalker at 90% heat can and will still Alpha you in the Face.

And not experience any detrimental effects!

[Deathlike]

Maliconus, on 16 May 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

I am fine with this and I run hot all the time.... A 6 PPC Stalker at 90% heat can and will still Alpha you in the Face.

If/when heat penalties are added, this will not be happening w/o consequences.

Edited by Deathlike, 16 May 2013 - 09:09 AM.

[General Taskeen]

MW3 Flamer is still better. Trying to balance the Flamer with its "always stream flame" functionality will cause problems no matter what in either direction. Copying the MW:LL MG and Flamer was a detrimental mistake for a Mech vs. Mech game like MWO regardless of "cool factor."

Edited by General Taskeen, 16 May 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[Jetfire]

Vasces Diablo, on 16 May 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

This concerns me greatly, as it's generally how I read these changes as well.

It's basically a "Stun lock" mechanic. Which is a bad mechanic IMO and is hugely frustrating to the player. If I get beaten be another player because they out pilot me or because I made a wrong move, I'm cool with that, that's enjoyable gameplay. However, if I get beaten because the opponents build (in whatever MMO) prevents me from being able to take any actions over an extended period while I am forced to sit and take damage.... That's getting into rage quit territory.

No, 90% is not shot down, but almost any action you take at the point to defend yourself will get you there, so it's basically the same thing. Just running produces heat and even ballistics generate hear... Except machine guns, but that doesn't really count as defending yourself.

Not that flamers don't need some love, but 90% is a bit high IMO.

I disagree, at 90% you can still move and fire a variety of weapons. It will only be capable of stun locking mechs that rely solely on high heat weapons. Punishing 6 PPC stalkers with potential stun locks is perfectly acceptable. Stun locking balanced heat mechs is not.

[Sug]

Syllogy, on 16 May 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

The Rundown:

Now give them a limited amount of fuel and let them do damage/heat when they're critically hit and you'll have something there PGI.

Edited by Sug, 16 May 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[Nehkrosis]

ha, great stuff, now when a 6 PPC stalker gets within 90m of a 6 flamer jenner, it literally cant fight back at all!

[Hammertrial]

Nehkrosis, on 16 May 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

ha, great stuff, now when a 6 PPC stalker gets within 90m of a 6 flamer jenner, it literally cant fight back at all!

It can. It can still fire all 6 ppcs at once, and only have the standard shutdown time hes used to, while the jenner isn't really doing any damage and can't generate heat while the stalker is shut down.

[Vasces Diablo]

Jetfire, on 16 May 2013 - 09:32 AM, said:

I disagree, at 90% you can still move and fire a variety of weapons. It will only be capable of stun locking mechs that rely solely on high heat weapons. Punishing 6 PPC stalkers with potential stun locks is perfectly acceptable. Stun locking balanced heat mechs is not.

But you're not really punishing the 6 PPC boat, so what if they shut down. They will just come back up and alpha again. The same thing will happen if I fire a few med lasers of course, but one PPC Is still the winner. At 90% even balanced mechs will overheat but do it while dishing out much less damage.... or you can try to take out a (most likely) circling fast light with 2 med lasers.

[Anyone00]

The AC/5 might end up as the weapon of choice for chasing off flamer boating fast mechs.

[Syllogy]

Personally, I think that a 2 Flamer / 2 Medium Laser / 2 SRM4 Jenner will be more effective than a 6 Flamer Jenner. Since you won't be able to stun-lock people, when they power up, if they have enough close range punch, they cab still put a whoopin on you before they overheat again. I would rather have something that can heat them up, and then do as much damage as possible before they can power back on.