267 replies to this topic

[trollocaustic]

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  Quote

  • 6 ML Jenner and numerous other lights Deserves it
    
  • Hunchback 4P (like, any sane build for it)
    
  • Several Awesomes
    
  • Stalkers with multiple SRMs, LRMs, MLs, MPLs, SLs for side-weapons, you name it
    
  • Quad AC/2 Jagermech (already very limited by heat) Deserves it
    
  • DRG-FLAME (common to run 4 ML, MPL, or LL)
    
  • CN9-AL
    
  • 4/5ths of CDAs if using MLs or similar Deserves it
    
  • AS7-D
    
  • AS7-RS
    
  • CPLT-A1, CPLT-C4 (almost everything you'd want to use them for)
    
  • COM-TDK
    
  • HGN-733
    

Otherwise, I agree

[Taemien]

jeffsw6, on 18 May 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Another fine example of how unbelievably foolish PGI can be! If they approach it this way, they must either cripple 50 common, reasonable builds in order to nerf PPC/ERPPC boats, while still not affecting the jump-jet ones; or not do enough, but gimp all those other mechs/builds a little more anyway.

50 common reasonable builds? Common builds? Forgive me for not being sympathetic to those that don't make their own unique builds. But they can cry me a river.

We have to understand that the game will change over time. Builds that were viable, will become obsolete. Builds that weren't so hot will be awesome at times. Thats just the way a game goes that actually has updates to its balance. The simple solution is to change your builds. If a Jenner with 6 medium lasers goes to the chopping block, then take 2 off and throw on some heat sinks. Or god forbid, chain fire them, or group them in two groups of 3.

The OP whom I quoted and others like is the EXACT reason our gaming generation is in DECLINE. This change hasn't even been TESTED yet and he's already making forum posts about how its going to be doom and gloom. Its asinine to think that these players refuse to even try something and try to adapt to see how it will actually work. It could be better or for worse, if its bad it can be reverted.

If this change complicates how we fire weapons, then we will simply need to learn to adapt. With ELO being what it is, then you all have nothing to worry about, play about 20 games and you'll be nearing the point to fighting the proper opponents.

[Livewyr]

Bad idea: punishing when multiples of same weapon are fired (heck, 6 SLs..) with current HS dictated heat-cap.

Good idea: Lowering the heatcap to a standard cap (and making heatsinks more efficient).
Discourages high heat alpha builds. (Like the unlimited ammo 6PPC stalker that should literally melt with the first shot)
Encourages mixed loadouts, or low heat alpha builds. Wanna boat Gauss? be my guest.. 2 Gauss weighs more, and takes more critical spaces than 4 PPCs... and that's before ammo...which can run out. (And Gauss rifles explode.)

Also Good Idea: Punish maintaining very high heat. Blur vision a little bit, slow down mech movement/maneuvering, rates of fire, convergence, etc...
90% heat should be a pain to run in.. alpha striking at that point should be a matter utmost emergency.

--------------------------
You SHOULD have to worry about your heat- and not just because it might take away your ability to throw more damage temporarily, but because of your own survival.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

You know this game is going down the tubes when paul is in a thread arguing with players LOL. GL PGI, this is lining up nicely to be a epic fail.

[Sable]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 18 May 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

You know this game is going down the tubes when paul is in a thread arguing with players LOL. GL PGI, this is lining up nicely to be a epic fail.

Clarifying one's words to provide clear insight to its original meaning does not qualify as arguing to me. Sorry to bust your apocalyptic bubble of a failing game theory.

[ReguIus]

Agreed. High heat build up should be more detrimental in any case.

As for the OP...

Cockpit shake should get rid of extreme poptarting.. Flamers should prevent high heat builds from operating, provided that you can stop heat dissipation with one flamer. If this becomes a must in brawler builds, then I expect we will start seeing builds with low-heat back-up weapons.

Even if this heat scale is implemented, naturally it needs to be adjusted accordingly for each weapon type. I grant that PPC's are right now the worst, and I agree that this system might not be an optimal way to approach this problem. Boating SRM's or Medium/Large Lasers isn't a problem since a) They don't do 100% of their damage in an instant and their damage is divided between many different parts of the target Mech. This balances itself out perfectly. PPC's are different because the way they deliver damage is different.

Here's what I'd do:

-Raise PPC/ERPPC heat buildup to what they used to be
-Slow projectile speed a little bit. 1850 m/s for example
-Cooldown at least 5 seconds

PPC's will be the weapon of choice for engaging enemies at range. PPC/ERPPC cannot be relied upon in a protracted engagement because it will simply cause you to overheat. This forces players to use back-up weapons for close range battles.

Long range weapons should be mutually exclusive with close range weapons.

[SpiralRazor]

Again, havent logged on in awhile but i wanted to respond here.


The multiples-generate-more-heat solution is rtarded, as is putting in another energy system.


This is the fix, and is canon compatible.



"Personally I think soft gameplay fixes to boating would work well. IE introduce mech effects when you get to high heat levels > Slower turning, lower top speed, > less accuracy > hud messing up."


No one can ***** about implementing a detrimental effects heat scale as its part of the core Battletech experience.


Maybe once some more people get fired from PGI for being incompetent, and once the bottom 30% of the player base who are absolutely atrocious at this game leave, Ill think about coming back.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 18 May 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[Punkass]

Having read the OP and Paul Inouye's response (And intentionally skipping a great deal in between), I would have to agree with the OP's idea (but not tone) that increasing the heat scale for loading out on a lot of the same weapons is, well.... dumb.

Excellent point: several mech variants lend themselves naturally to boating energy weapons (AWS-8Q, HBK-4P). Are we seriously going to penalize someone (further) for putting 6 ML in a 4P's hunch? Wasn't that sorta the point?

IMHO, boating anything really isn't a problem. You wanna discourage PPC boating, try rolling back the heat generation of PPCs and ERPPCs to what they were.

I think the real problem with the game right now is (wait for it) poptarting. It puts brawlers at a huge disadvantage. You either move at get shot, engage them at range (and lose) or stay pinned and get mopped up. Truth is, it shouldn't be happening. There's already precedence in the table top that you shouldn't be able to hit anything at 1KM with pinpoint accuracy.
http://www.sarna.net...otalWarfare53-3

[Yiazmat]

Paul Inouye, on 18 May 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

@jeffsw6: If you're going to quote me, please at least complete the quote.

"Investigation items are not locked in and are exactly that... thoughts and tests. Do NOT go flying off the handle about how this won't work or that won't work until we make an official post."

Owned.

[LockeJaw]

I got [REDACTED]

[ReguIus]

Well the fact that different weapon types overlap each other too much causes majority of these problems. It's like playing Counter Strike and you win EVERY firefight with a sniper rifle, even if you're up against SMG's, Assault Rifles and the like. It won't work there and I see no reason why it should work here either.

PPC's are just the top of the food chain. Lasers vs. Pulse Lasers are another good example of what I speak of.

[BladeXXL]

AND S.H.I.T STORM LIKE THIS IS WHY DEVS ARE CAREFULL AND UNWILLING TO SHARE IDEAS WITH US! -.-

Edited by BladeXXL, 18 May 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

ObsidianSpectre, on 18 May 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

I have to agree with the OP. That's a poor way to balance this. If a weapon is OP when there's six of them, it's also OP when there's one of them, it's just easier to see it when there's six. Balance the weapon on it's own, and you won't have to worry about boating being too powerful.

My own suggestion is to slow the shot velocity of the weapons back down, so that it's harder to hit with them. They were slower before, and needed to be increased to make them viable before HSR, but now that we have that the weapons should really be slowed back down. Do that first, and then see where things stand. If it's still too much, look at tweaking heat/damage. But don't do some silly boating penalty.

Dude.

What you said makes absolutely ZERO sense.

Seriously.

Guess what? ALL weapons are OP if you can slap enough of them on. The test of whether a weapon is broken or not is whether it is overpowered singularly. If it is not, the problem is not the weapon, but the system that allows you to mount obscene levels of multiples which have pinpoint targeting and convergence. Any mech mounting 2-3 PPC no one complains about (unless you also add in JJs and or Gauss, and then BOOM! Poptart! Is the Problem in that picture the PPC? Didn't think so). It's mechs running 4-6 with impunity.

Aided and abetted by a heat system that does not (yet) punish a player for running constant Alpha Strike Shutdowns.

[Livewyr]

Paul has returned.

*popcorn*


One thing to take away from this though; despite the hostile nature of the posts in here..there is something to be gained.

I think PGI could benefit from proposing several ideas to solve an issue, and when look for threads like this one to see what players think are potential problems could arise.

Like a giant Think Tank.


(Example of how this could have gone):

Paul in CC post: "We're looking into the issue of large weapon alpha strike boating as it is not in line with the play style we're looking for."

Ideas thus far:
Heat Penalties for firing multiples of the same weapon within a time frame (Alpha strike), and high heat penalties.

Reduced heat maximum(cap) and heat penalties, discouraging alpha strikes as main mode of engagement and promote balanced heat builds.

EDIT for concise linear thought:
Issue Identified>PGI Group discussion>Ideas>Post Ideas>Playerbase Discussion>PGI Reap>Code>Test>(Usual process)

(Whether they use it or not is not the point, getting player reaction/thoughts/suggestions before a single line of code is written, is the point.)

Edited by Livewyr, 18 May 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[Deathlike]

I find it ironic that the PGI Dartboard of Balance™ has less accuracy than convergence in this game.

[Tor6]

I disagree with Paul's proposed solution as I think it's really unworkable unless you put so many exceptions in that it becomes just impossible to understand. It'll either need to be so soft that it won't matter or will turn classic mech designs on their ear (looking at you 4P).

However, It's pretty ****** to call out a dev on the forums like this. I get frustrated with decisions they make (or don't make) too, but it's rude and is just going to make sure they don't respond to us in the future when they really -do- need to hear us. It sounds like they're almost still in the brainstorming stage of this or haven't settled on a plan, and if there's one thing that's sure to keep them from even looking at us for advice/input it's being dicks to them. :/

If I had to suggest a way to combat boating large high heat weapons I'd suggest removing Heat Sinks contribution to heat capacity (leaving it capped at 30) and greatly increasing their cooling to compensate. Heat sinks do not instantly remove heat, so spike heat would need to remain below a certain threshhold (ergo no firing 4 ppcs at once). However, if you had a ton of heat sinks you'd be able to fire very very frequently still so things like the awesome and PPC boats would still see use. However because they couldn't fire all at once and would need to space their shots out it would keep them from placing all their dmg on a single section in one go. It would pretty much ONLY touch alpha strike high heat builds because anyone spacing their shots out at all would not heat spike enough to be affected IF they balanced the heat dissipation rate increase to properly.

[trollocaustic]

Quote

Encourages mixed loadouts, or low heat alpha builds. Wanna boat Gauss? be my guest.. 2 Gauss weighs more, and takes more critical spaces than 4 PPCs... and that's before ammo...which can run out. (And Gauss rifles explode.)

Typical ballisdick *****. 2 gauss generate how much heat? With ballistic weapons, you don't have to think, you just need to know "**** blows up when i click it".

[Livewyr]

trollocaustic, on 18 May 2013 - 02:10 PM, said:

Typical ballisdick *****. 2 gauss generate how much heat? With ballistic weapons, you don't have to think, you just need to know "**** blows up when i click it".

Well gull dern! It's almost as if they weigh twice as much as every other weapon (BEFORE AMMO) to adjust for that!

Go home.

[jeffsw6]

Kiiyor, on 18 May 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

I don't think grown up communication was ever the intent. The whole point of trolling is warp a comment and to fabricate meaning so a nice, fat argument can be created.

The OP knows this quite well I think. 8/10, even got one of the devs to bite.

Do you know how many threads I've started, and replies I've posted in other threads, where there was a great deal of non-inflammatory discussion about different ways to nerf PPC boating? Lots.

Know how many of those received one iota of attention from the devs? Zero. Otherwise, they might be talking about some of those other ideas. Perhaps they'd tell us why they don't like them. Perhaps those would be play-tested.

Sybreed, on 18 May 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

Instead of antagonizing Paul and telling him his idea is bad (honestly, I think he posted that just to reassure us he's looking at PPCs), we should help him find better alternatives to balance the game. The OP and all his claims about Paul's ideas being foolish and etc aren't really helping to find better solutions.

See above.

MustrumRidcully, on 18 May 2013 - 04:13 AM, said:

I am more and more hesistant to change anything about convergence, and more in favor of changing something about how many weapons you can fire at once. If youc an fire 6 PPCs with a 0.25 second delay and every PPC hits that Hunchback's hunch, even as he slowly reacts to your fire and starts twisting, you were a good shot, you should reap your rewards. (And if the enemy didn't twist and didn't react, he was bad enough that it's a deserved loss).

This is a long, in-depth explanation of how ping and reflex time limits your ability to avoid damage. Scroll past it if you aren't interested.

I'd like to explain something about how round-trip-latency ("lag") impacts game-play in a way that is difficult to understand until you have thought it through. I'll give an example:

Jeff has a 70ms RTT ping (or 35ms one-way) and Mustrum has a 70ms RTT ping (35ms one-way), and the game server has a theoretical 0ms processing delay. The reflex time it take you to react from visual or auditory stimulation of realizing your mech is being shot is 200ms (typical; there are various studies on this topic.)

If I fire a LL at you, it takes 35+0+35ms for evidence of that to reach your screen, plus additional delay on your game client and video system (let's just call that 0 for simplicity, but it's really more like 10ms.) There is no way you can know you are being shot in a shorter time than 70ms. Being a limited human, it takes you 200ms to perform any reaction, such as beginning a turn or accelerating. Now we're up to 270ms. It then takes another 35ms for your turn command to reach the server -- a total of 305ms.

So if I shoot you with an LL, 305ms worth of my damage have been applied to you before any reflex-maneuvering can begin spreading that damage around. That's with both players having a fairly typical ping for North American or Western European internet connections.

305ms is about one-third of an LL's damage. Now, your turn or acceleration is going to take some time, because the mech doesn't turn instantly. So probably half the damage of a 1 second (1000ms) beam-weapon is applied before you can maneuver to spread it around or cause the opponent to miss.

Now imagine that you are shooting some southern-hemisphere player with a larger ping -- they effectively have no time at all to respond.

Since PPCs land their damage instantly, if you started a chain-fire toward an average-ping opponent and it took 1/3rd second to fire all the PPCs you want to shoot, they will all hit him before he can possibly react (and the server register his reaction.)

For a high-ping opponent, it's even worse for them.

Long discussion about ping, reflex, and maneuvering delay: over.

Tennex, on 18 May 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

is to have different boating penalties for different weapons.

They haven't indicated this is being considered. Paul's responses did not say, we are trying to nerf PPC boating without killing the 9 ML Hunchback. Do you trust them to get the penalties right for different weapons? I don't. They can't even figure out if the Machine Gun is under-powered, needs a 100% buff, or what.

He could have said this in either of the 2 replies he posted to this thread. He didn't. All he did was defend himself by saying it's not set in stone, yet ... he did not say they are even thinking about doing something else.

8RoundsRapid, on 18 May 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Well, it is a bad idea. Horrible, in fact. Further, people have been trying to help them find better alternatives for many, many months now. They listen to none of it, and just keep making this game worse and worse. And that's mind boggling to me, cuz it's been bad for a long, long time now, and yet they still manage to make it worse.

hammerreborn, on 18 May 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

You could you know, always not alpha in every single one of those builds. Sets of 3 for each arm in the Jenner, for instance. Chain fire the hunchback, or once again break them up into smaller sets.

Note that Paul did not say "fire multiple weapons in the same instant," but in a short period of time. If you make that time interval long enough to affect 4-6 PPCs it will also be large enough to affect 4-9 MLs. There won't be any utility in carrying more of that weapon.

Also the time-scale may be an even greater problems for high-rate-of-fire weapons, such as AC/2 and Ultra AC/5. The AC/2 is already the worst dmg/heat ballistic weapon and builds that boat AC/2s are already limited by heat quite effectively (IMO.) I don't like being attacked by a quad AC/2 Jagermech, but it's not like that is the dominant build in the game. Can they kill me? Yeah, sure can. But not with 0 skill, and it's not an automatic win for those pilots. I think Paul's new system will nerf them, and I don't really like that.

[Huntsman]

Jackson Jax Teller, on 18 May 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Ah catapults arent supposed to be in Battletech, or awesomes, or any other canon mech design that boats?

or
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Yeoman
or
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Longbow
or... etc etc

Ya know what this game needs?

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nova

A 50 ton mech with an 84 damage alpha strike.

Edited by Huntsman, 18 May 2013 - 02:38 PM.