238 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Wintersdark, on 20 May 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Poptarting is not exploiting anything. I don't like to get into semantics arguments, but this is really a case where you should not use the word.

See, an exploit isn't just something you don't like. It's a deliberate abuse of a bug in game mechanics. Poptarting is not abusing game mechanics, as much as you don't like it - it's just a use of game mechanics. It's one with negative consequences to the game as a whole, but that too doesn't make it an exploit.

Anyways, we're playing the same game, but possibly not against the same people. You should always keep in mind that what you see people doing in game is not what everyone sees - this, interestingly, is where I suspect a lot of forum angst comes from.

Just jumping up and down doesn't mean you're exploiting anything, it just means you're bad at poptarting. A player skilled at it will jump up and down and side to side, unpredictably. It's been my experience that a poptarting player who just jumps up and down dies on his second or third jump, so those poptarts don't last long or accomplish much. After he's popped once, a couple enemy mechs are holding their crosshairs where they suspect he'll pop again. If he does so... splat.

I don't care. Let them poptart and cornflake and peach pie. I'll still hit them fine. However poptarting exploits a weakness in gameplay mechanics. You may not think so now, but wait until 3rd Person meets Poptarts. Now there is some zombie love if ever there was.

And I assure you this proposed shaking of the Mech when JJets are used will have no effect because with poptarting you take the shot on the way down. Or actually, I suppose with poptarting in third person you can also take a shot on the way up.

And this is my only concern really. That they add this Nerf/Feature and it does nothing about the problem they are trying to address.

Edited by Lightfoot, 20 May 2013 - 11:26 AM.

[Lord of All]

I have been waiting for this, I may buy a highlander now.

[Appogee]

Shake while jump-jetting is a long overdue balancing factor, necessary because of the current completely unrealistic and way-too-easy poptarting mechanic.

Shake while zooming should be very pronounced so that massive alphas cannot be delivered with pinpoint accuracy from large distances.

So I completely support the devs in making this change...

By the way, I have never complained about poptarting. I do it myself from time to time, though I find it a bit boring to be honest. I did it a lot when I played MWLL. The introduction of JJ shake made MWLL better, even though it became harder to jump-snipe. It was better for the realism and for the overall battles, and the sky did not fall.

Edited by Appogee, 20 May 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[JohnathanSwift]

Chavette, on 19 May 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

Muh MW4 ELITE GAMEPLAY

Snow Raven plz go.

[Khanahar]

Okay, as a matter of principle: If PGI releases a hero 'mech that is imba (HM really isn't, but let's talk principle), they obviously should nerf it. PTW is worse than the slight bait and switch. But perhaps in such a case, a limited refund window might be appropriate.

[Chavette]

Lightfoot, on 20 May 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

I don't care. Let them poptart and cornflake and peach pie. I'll still hit them fine. However poptarting exploits a weakness in gameplay mechanics. You may not think so now, but wait until 3rd Person meets Poptarts. Now there is some zombie love if ever there was.

Why you guys say that? If anything, you can see the jumpers head sooner from 3rd person, and you can get ready to shoot him when he pops. Its more of a counter than a buff to popping.

Also the way down shooting only applies if you're a stupid wack-a-mole vertjumper, but thats not the point here.

JohnathanSwift, on 20 May 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Quote

Muh MW4 ELITE GAMEPLAY

Snow Raven plz go.

I was on dialup an hour a week when mw4 was getting multiplayed, what you on about?

Edited by Chavette, 20 May 2013 - 01:37 PM.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Infernus1986, on 20 May 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

Your turn to have the game meta flipped at your expense like everyone not running PPC boats and poptarts
enjoy having a mech bay full of useless builds.

This is the price you pay when you invest heavily in Flavor Of The Months's builds in a BETA

Uh, we played the meta before Jump sniping, we can play the meta post Jump Sniping, it's quite simple you see because the mechlab kind of lets you remove weapons and put new ones on, as well as Jumpjets..those can be taken off too...so nothing is totally useless.

JohnathanSwift, on 20 May 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Snow Raven plz go.

You came into his thread to tell him to go?.....why did you not just...you know..not come in?

[Roland]

JohnathanSwift, on 20 May 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Snow Raven plz go.

[PropagandaWar]

Tennex, on 19 May 2013 - 02:54 PM, said:

It should only shake when the JJ is held down.

So that there is a narrow window durig free fall where the mech can still aim. It will mAke jump sniping significantly harder

Yep and when you fall because your out of fuel take your legs out knock you on your bum and take falling damage because you didnt control descent.

[Lightfoot]

Chavette, on 20 May 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

Why you guys say that? If anything, you can see the jumpers head sooner from 3rd person, and you can get ready to shoot him when he pops. Its more of a counter than a buff to popping.

Also the way down shooting only applies if you're a stupid wack-a-mole vertjumper, but thats not the point here.


I was on dialup an hour a week when mw4 was getting multiplayed, what you on about?

Well that's the only exploit in the game mechanics, and just barely. Any other jump jet shot is not an exploit, it's a skill shot and you don't nerf skills in a game. If this is all about just making it impossible to shoot weapons while jump-jetting I think everyone is becoming worthless and weak. How sad.

And in 3rd person view the players just on the farside of a hill or wall have a much better viewing angle than anyone approaching the hill or wall from a distance. You won't see them till you are cored, and that is an exploit in the game mechanics.

Edited by Lightfoot, 20 May 2013 - 07:17 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

It is a born sniper mech.

If you don't know how to play a long range game without jump jets then it's safe to say the problem is you. You bought the Heavy Metal for a bad reason and now you're paying for your screw up. All I have to say is "lol."

Besides, the point of jump jets isn't to poptart, it's get around the battlefield more easily. That's it. You can set up shop in areas other mechs can't, escape via abnormal routes, and so forth. Though in the case of the Highlander they were also used to DFA enemies and crush them.

Edited by TOGSolid, 20 May 2013 - 02:33 PM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Wintersdark, on 20 May 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Poptarting is not exploiting anything. I don't like to get into semantics arguments, but this is really a case where you should not use the word.

See, an exploit isn't just something you don't like. It's a deliberate abuse of a bug in game mechanics. Poptarting is not abusing game mechanics, as much as you don't like it - it's just a use of game mechanics. It's one with negative consequences to the game as a whole, but that too doesn't make it an exploit.

Anyways, we're playing the same game, but possibly not against the same people. You should always keep in mind that what you see people doing in game is not what everyone sees - this, interestingly, is where I suspect a lot of forum angst comes from.

Just jumping up and down doesn't mean you're exploiting anything, it just means you're bad at poptarting. A player skilled at it will jump up and down and side to side, unpredictably. It's been my experience that a poptarting player who just jumps up and down dies on his second or third jump, so those poptarts don't last long or accomplish much. After he's popped once, a couple enemy mechs are holding their crosshairs where they suspect he'll pop again. If he does so... splat.

Allow me to reply to this very simply with something I'd said in another thread.

Jade Kitsune, on 14 May 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Actually, one can argue that it's a horribly exploitative tactic that disregards gameplay mechanics to do something you're not supposed to be able to do.

First off, Jump Sniping in MWO 100% exploits the fact that "Convergence time" was removed from the game, it used to take time for your weapons to focus where you aimed the crosshair. However PGI was having issues with mechs in brawling distance and convergence time in brawling weapons [the old Arm's shooting AC rounds to the side of a mech while in a brawl problem] If convergence time was still properly implimented in the game, we wouldn't be having the problem with Jump Sniper's we are having now.

Secondly, Jump Sniping is also exploiting a "recent" [I say that because it's been a few months] Change to Jump Jets that removed them from being more of a movement based piece of equipment to get from point A to point B, to something that can be exploited. Might I add the devs actively, went out of their way because players complained about Jump Jets prior to this change. And they made the JJ's "Break the laws of physics" As a result, we have jump sniping.

Third point of contention. In Battletech/Mechwarrior, there's a risk/reward system in exposing yourself for an attack. You must expose yourself to attack someone, as such you can be attacked. That's part of the balance. Jump Sniping exploits the mechanics of the game to give you the most minimal profile. With the above factors working together, Jump Sniping exploits the games physics engine to minimize your exposure time and maximize your damage.

Jump Sniping... is an exploit.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

jump jets for moving, that crazy talk. next thing you are going to tell me is jump jets geneate heat, that would be messed up. I guess I'll have to walk up vertical walls and do some ghetto sniping.
what do you mean I wont be able to walk up vertical wall anymore either, I guess jump jets are back to being OP again.

[Chavette]

TOGSolid, on 20 May 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

You bought the Heavy Metal for a bad reason and now you're paying for your screw up.

How are you going to tell me what are the good reasons for me to buy something?

Calm down... lol

[TOGSolid]

Chavette, on 20 May 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

How are you going to tell me what are the good reasons for me to buy something?

Calm down... lol

I am calm. You're the one who's buttmad beyond all belief that your FOTM crap is getting nerfed. You bought the mech to join the poptart crowd, something we all suspected was going to get nerfed seeing as how it ruined MW4. The inevitable fix is happening and now you're complaining that your purchase is ruined.

Lolwut?

Edited by TOGSolid, 20 May 2013 - 03:39 PM.

[Chavette]

TOGSolid, on 20 May 2013 - 03:31 PM, said:

You're the one who's buttmad beyond all belief that your FOTM crap is getting nerfed.

How is it fotm when I've been playing a fire support since january?

[TOGSolid]

Chavette, on 20 May 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

How is it fotm when I've been playing a fire support since january?

By your own OP this thread is about poptarting Heavy Metals.
How is it NOT FOTM?

[tayhimself]

Roland, on 20 May 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

[Vhetra]

Chavette, on 19 May 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

RNG coming to a neighbourhood near you! Couple this with the current ballistic hit detection...

26:00
http://nogutsnogalaxy.net/ngng-72/

The bigger the mech, the more the shake. The longer the range, the more disruptive the same amount of shake.

The point of the heavy metal is the 5JJs. It doesn't have the hardpoint arsenal to make it an effective brawler, can't fit an AC20. It is a born sniper mech.

The purposed change is a two stab combo against the same chassis.


How I feel:

1, Its been said by top PGI brass that they wouldn't like to add any random factors to keep it a skill game. Different day, different bait-switch?

2, If for this reason my $38 investment gets blown to uselessness, I'll be pissed, and I mean really pissed.

3, I'm not a hard headed guy, I see where they come from, even though IMO its the high alpha/pinpoint dmg plague and not the JJs in general.
Proof: there weren't any problems before the Highlanders, when only Phract players were jumping 24/7.

See that boldened part? That's where you're wrong. My 2LL, 2xSSRM2, Gauss rifle HM that dishes out 4-600 dmg on average would like to have a word with the ignorance displayed in your post.

[Chavette]

TOGSolid, on 20 May 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

By your own OP this thread is about poptarting Heavy Metals.
How is it NOT FOTM?

I've been jumping since then and its the jumping that's getting nerfed, not the HGN-HM. Nobody suspected it getting nerfed when the HM came out, its was just a few phrachts jumping, and the HM wasn't even better until it got elited and all HGN-s came out, which was when the real **** hit the fan. Its not like I'm asking for a refund I'm just bringing it to their attention that we're gonna get the short end of this bull.

Vhetra, on 20 May 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

See that boldened part? That's where you're wrong. My 2LL, 2xSSRM2, Gauss rifle HM that dishes out 4-600 dmg on average

And I get 600-900 on a laserstalker, whats your point?