154 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 05:24 PM, said:

Actually I run a Cent AL with a 230 quite well at 82kph w/Speed Tweak. Wouldn't go any slower though. Same heat management as running the 250 without Speed Tweak. Pretty much what I was getting at is I use it as a form of weight reduction without really any penalties. Like I used Ferro only adding 3 crits for the out of engine heat sink and got 2 extra tons to play with. (not including the out of engine heat sink that I added)

It's not the same. Even Smurfy's website agrees with my assessment. The non-speed tweak build is still better, ESPECIALLY after speed tweak is applied.

[Sturmforge]

Deathlike, on 19 May 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

It's not the same. Even Smurfy's website agrees with my assessment. The non-speed tweak build is still better, ESPECIALLY after speed tweak is applied.

Not really there is no real difference in game running either one other than the addition of BAP and some armor on my legs. That boost is nice will not disagree there but I did not really have to compromise anywhere to get it. Honestly it should have cost me weight or crits to get more speed like that. A smaller boost would have been better such as less than if I put in the next size engine, or maybe let me put in a larger engine than the cap allows.

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 05:47 PM.

[Deathlike]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

Not really there is no real difference in game running either one other than the addition of BAP and some armor on my legs. Where the other is slightly faster.

Your build unfortunately proves my argument, so I'm not sure how to argue a bad idea.

I understand some people use speed tweak as a "tonnage saver" by downgrading the engine, but when you are going slower than a 250 engine.. it's not worth it.

It's actually better to build a mech that uses speed tweak effectively.. I used to put a 380XL on the Cent-D, but it's worth saving the 2 tons for the 370XL. I had to kinda suffer running @ 120kph before the speed tweak, but after it, the mech runs @ 131kph and is able to pretty much chase the non-speed tweaked trial Jenner Champion... but whatever I guess.

[Sturmforge]

What argument are you trying to prove? I was comparing the one mech as if it did not have speed tweak as to what I did to the mech once I got that skill. Yes the other is better speed wise, but that is it. Heat management in the game is exactly the same. The difference in those numbers is very small.

Edited by Sturmforge, 19 May 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

I still think the upgrades should be different from weight class to weight class. or even chassis to chassis.

I also think you should have to choose which ones you have so you turn on or off the ones you want for the role you are trying to play. Though not all efficiencies are created equal, but maybe they should be so you can have a limit. Speed tweak could then be modified based on your weight class and you might only get that one form that teir, or maybe that and one other so you have to be force to choose.

I am a sucker for punishment though I would like to go even further and see tweaks be positive AND negative. So speed tweak might increase your speed but reduce your agility or something similar.

You can have the grind in an F2P game (and they need it) but you can make people grind for options not straight power. This way you can have a system where you have sidegrades and trade offs that create a complex pro and con meta game.

Kinda off topic sorry, the game is just too simplistic and power based.

[Dragoon Furey]

Biggest problem with mediums right now is that the solo/2-4 man meta has shifted away from CQC for the heavy and assault class in favor of PPC/Gauss sniping this change has the unfortunate side effect of killing off the fire support and brawling roles that mediums are really good at. When both teams are setup for sniping there is much less brawling happening so that leaves you with sniping or anti-light/cap duty. In either case another weight class will do it better contributing far more to the team. in 8v8 its a bit different a coordinated team setup to move fast and fight in close quarters will destroy the all sniper team and this is where the medium classes can often contribute a lot more to the battle then another heavy or assault mech.

[Butane9000]

Deathlike, on 19 May 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Let's welcome the return of the 3 second Jenner while you're at it.

Note I said decrease stock engine speeds for lights to COMPENSATE so there should be minimal change.

[Sturmforge]

Dragoon Furey, on 19 May 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

Biggest problem with mediums right now is that the solo/2-4 man meta has shifted away from CQC for the heavy and assault class in favor of PPC/Gauss sniping this change has the unfortunate side effect of killing off the fire support and brawling roles that mediums are really good at. When both teams are setup for sniping there is much less brawling happening so that leaves you with sniping or anti-light/cap duty. In either case another weight class will do it better contributing far more to the team. in 8v8 its a bit different a coordinated team setup to move fast and fight in close quarters will destroy the all sniper team and this is where the medium classes can often contribute a lot more to the battle then another heavy or assault mech.

Still find my Cent useful in some situations. I am one of those Medium Pilots that knows he is dead alone. I like to harass, hit-n-run, or scare lights and other mediums off the heavier units when not attacking their targets. Mediums are support mechs plain and simple.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Sturmforge, on 19 May 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

I was thinking more of reducing it to maybe 1-3% instead of 10%. Less of a noticeable boost.

So the heavier the mech the less the speed boost, I like that. But where does that start? Lights get a full 10%, Mediums an 8%, Heavies a 5% and Assaults 3%?

Edited by KuruptU4Fun, 19 May 2013 - 06:02 PM.

[Deathlike]

Butane9000, on 19 May 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

Note I said decrease stock engine speeds for lights to COMPENSATE so there should be minimal change.

I don't think you understand. When you are actually lowering the engine speeds as compensation, you indirectly generate more tonnage to be used.. and most of the time it is used in the form of more DHS.

[Sybreed]

if speed is the only "redeeming" factor for medium mechs, then something is really, really wrong with the game.

[Asmosis]

People need to stop thinking of mechs in terms of light/med/heavy (assults do stand out a bit) and start thinking in terms of chassis tonnage.

There is very little difference between a 50 ton medium and a 55 ton heavy, just like there isnt much difference between a 35 ton light and a 40 ton med, or a 75 ton heavy and a 80 ton awesome.

When you start comparing a 50 ton med to a 65-70 heavy then obviously your going to run into issues. Try comparing a 20/25 ton light to a 50 ton med and you'll have the same issues.

[Asmudius Heng]

Asmosis, on 19 May 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

People need to stop thinking of mechs in terms of light/med/heavy (assults do stand out a bit) and start thinking in terms of chassis tonnage.

There is very little difference between a 50 ton medium and a 55 ton heavy, just like there isnt much difference between a 35 ton light and a 40 ton med, or a 75 ton heavy and a 80 ton awesome.

When you start comparing a 50 ton med to a 65-70 heavy then obviously your going to run into issues. Try comparing a 20/25 ton light to a 50 ton med and you'll have the same issues.

Indeed, tonnage matters.

The weight classes are arbitrary, but there are some things that bound them together in TT. Here in MWO they really do not mean that much as the old classic an Awesome is suppose to = an Atlas ... and doesn't.

The quicker they realise they cannot balance a game where every mech is super viable all the time the quicker they can start looking at ways to balance tonnage in match. Through incentives or restrictions - it doesn't matter, just that action is taken.

[Sturmforge]

They do have some characteristics that lump them together in groups by tonnage though. That is engine weight and speed. There is a cutoff for varying speeds that if you try to get a chassis to go that speed you will end up with less weight for weapons and armor than if you took a lighter chassis. It is not the current set of weight classes though. 40 ton mechs are closer to the light class as the 60 tonners are closer to being mediums than heavies. Size is also another factor in this.

[Satan n stuff]

My Yen Lo Wang runs close to 100 without speed tweak, and it's got 19 tons of weapons and ammo, and exactly 9 tons of armor. ( About 0.5 from max with ferro fibrous. )
My Cicadas all run at 150+ with speed tweak, and they've all got the same firepower as a typical Jenner or Raven and are fully armored where it matters, making them tougher than any light mech.
My Hunchbacks are universally slow, but they pack a serious punch, are fully armored and can easily beat assault mechs one on one. I don't own a 4P, but I know for a fact that it can have the highest precision alpha of any available mech short of an assault, without sacrificing anything other than heat efficiency.
My Trebuchets all run at 80-90 kph, and all of them have some devastating ranged firepower are fully armored ( again ) , and one is equipped with additional short ranged weapons.
What I'm trying to say here is that mediums not being effective or as effective as anything else is a myth.
For a 50 ton mech 20 or so tons of weapons and a top speed over 80 isn't unusual, and a 40 ton mech can fit 10 tons of weapons with a top speed of 150.

[Vassago Rain]

***** n stuff, on 20 May 2013 - 02:43 AM, said:

My Yen Lo Wang runs close to 100 without speed tweak, and it's got 19 tons of weapons and ammo, and exactly 9 tons of armor. ( About 0.5 from max with ferro fibrous. )
My Cicadas all run at 150+ with speed tweak, and they've all got the same firepower as a typical Jenner or Raven and are fully armored where it matters, making them tougher than any light mech.
My Hunchbacks are universally slow, but they pack a serious punch, are fully armored and can easily beat assault mechs one on one. I don't own a 4P, but I know for a fact that it can have the highest precision alpha of any available mech short of an assault, without sacrificing anything other than heat efficiency.
My Trebuchets all run at 80-90 kph, and all of them have some devastating ranged firepower are fully armored ( again ) , and one is equipped with additional short ranged weapons.
What I'm trying to say here is that mediums not being effective or as effective as anything else is a myth.
For a 50 ton mech 20 or so tons of weapons and a top speed over 80 isn't unusual, and a 40 ton mech can fit 10 tons of weapons with a top speed of 150.

Is that why you never see them in the game now?

[Chemie]

many good points on balance and light vs medium vs heavy.

However, one of the main reasons to take an heavy/assault over a medium is matchmaker. There is no reason to not take an assault. With no weight limit, why should you drop under tonned?

If there was a weight limit, you could still queue with an assault, but will have long wait times (if everyone takes assault). Seems fair and would balance out drops making for more variety.

ATD38 said they wanted to incentivize players to drop more variety...well put in drop weight limits (not just class matching).

Then you will get mediums.

Edited by Chemie, 20 May 2013 - 03:15 AM.

[Cyke]

Essentially the tonnage of a 'Mech affects these inter-related factors:

- the engine rating required to attain a certain speed
- the mass of that engine required to attain that speed
- the amount of free space available for weapons and armor

Engine mass goes up at a higher rate than engine rating in BattleTech. This is to ensure that to maintain the same speed, the heavier a 'Mech is, it will actually end up having less tons free for weapons and armor. This is a carefully calculated factor intended to maintain the balance between heavier and lighter chassis.
Speed Tweak fudges the formula somewhat, reducing the effect of this balance factor.


Anyway, I believe we can still get around this for one simple reason:
Speed Tweak may be exclusive to MWO, but MWO also has its own set of special factors that do not exist in other Btech games. One of these special factors is 'Mech size.

Perhaps some enterprising fellow can use a 3D editing program to export the models and compare the total displacement volume of the 'Mechs in relation to their tonnage, and we can see their densities. A high density is preferable, because it means that the 'Mech is smaller and harder to hit for its weight.

I suspect the Centurion and Trebuchet have very low densities (they look gigantic for their low weight), which would indicate part of the the reason why they are uncompetitive chassis.
As an obvious corollary, this also gives a clue toward the solution: shrink their models down to a size that is more appropriate for their low tonnage.

TLDR: Some medium 'Mechs are too big (and too easy to hit) for their weight. Maybe reducing them to proper size would help them.

Edited by Cyke, 20 May 2013 - 03:17 AM.

[twibs]

Not enough speed to really avoid the beating
Not enough armor to take the beating

[Cyke]

Chemie, on 20 May 2013 - 03:12 AM, said:

many good points on balance and light vs medium vs heavy.

However, one of the main reasons to take an heavy/assault over a medium is matchmaker. There is no reason to not take an assault. With no weight limit, why should you drop under tonned?

If there was a weight limit, you could still queue with an assault, but will have long wait times (if everyone takes assault). Seems fair and would balance out drops making for more variety.

ATD38 said they wanted to incentivize players to drop more variety...well put in drop weight limits (not just class matching).

Then you will get mediums.

The specific implementation in the existing matchmaker would be very complicated to conceptualize, but I have to say that this makes a lot of sense. Many BattleTech games (both tabletop and computer) have limited 'Mech tonnage. They've been used both as a fun "realism" factor (limited dropship payload space, or something like that), as well as a game balance tool.
There's no reason for this factor to be completely absent from MWO.


Maybe it's something that'll fit better in Community Warfare, where there may be stuff like missions for pre-made teams with limited total drop weight for a team. Heck, control of certain meta-objectives in the star map could give you bonuses like a bit of extra drop weight for your faction or something like that.
Drop weight is another tool for PGI to play with to make the game interesting in CW, basically.