106 replies to this topic

[Just wanna play]

Errinovar, on 28 June 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

I just did a little testing to see how it shaped up. I used a 2xERPPC cent on training grounds.. I picked 3 different targets. The ERPPCs were firing simultaneously, so each hit was 20 damage. On each of these 3 mechs I shot at the shoulder, taking the arm, and then continuing through the arm to the side torso and finally the center torso. Here are the results.

Commando = 6 hits = 120 damage
Cicada = 8 hits = 160 damage
Atlas = 47 hits = 940 damage

Then to test my theory about targeting I went after the cent. I targeted at the elbow of the right arm and when the arm was gone it was hitting the small rectangular armor plate above the waist and below the arm.

Centurion = 12 hits = 240 damage

Now if you start hitting the arm stump on the Cent that number goes up, and the deal with the cent is, that the arm stump is big, so if you are aiming at chest height and it turns you are almost always going to hit the stump reducing the damage. But even still it will come nowhere close to the 47 it takes to do the same thing to an Atlas.

okay so thats what you meant, in that case READ THE FRAKKIN THREAD, your pretty much slowly discovering whats already been said, for example:

Jman5, on 26 May 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Yeah I submitted this to PGI a month ago, but I don't know if it got anywhere.

Here is what's going on:
When you shoot an arm, leg, or side torso off, there is "debris" left over. When you shoot and hit that debris, only 50% of damage transfers to the next component. A simple example most of you probably already know about is the leg. As you all know, when you shoot off a leg, it becomes limp, but sticks around. By shooting that leg debris, 50% of damage transfers up into the corresponding side torso. (if you've ever shot a broken leg and seen side torso flash, that's whats going on)

However, the problem here is that not all arm debris is created equal. Some mechs have practically no arm debris left over, while others have massive chunks that practically dwarf the side torso. The Centurion is one of those mechs that has a huge chunk of arm debris left over that looks like side torso.

What's more, is that damage reduction is re-applied for every destroyed component the damage transfers through. For example, say you destroy an arm and side torso, but then shoot the "arm debris". 50% of damage transfers to side torso debris and then only 50% of that transfers to Center Torso. Hence you have these nearly unkillable Zombie Centurions.

Now it's important to note that you can still do normal damage to side torsos if you understand where arm debris ends and side torso begins.


Here is a video I recorded in April showcasing the issue. Count the number of shots it takes to kill the left Side Torso when I shoot arm debris and compare it with how long it takes to shoot the Right Side torso when I hit it directly.


And before people say training ground means nothing, it was a real game against an afk centurion that originally tipped me off to this issue.

[Ngamok]

Lefty Lucy, on 26 May 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Ok, after making my previous flippant statement, I actually went into mechlab to test things out. Of the testing grounds mechs, Atlases and Centurions seem to have large "residual arm hitboxes." On the Atlas I think it has a much smaller effect on overall durability because the Atlases CT is so easy to hit anyways, but on the Cent you can basically only hit the CT by shooting a pretty narrow strip on the front of the mech.

If this is the case, then just wait till the Victor starts doing the same thing. Look at the Hero mech screen shot and look at the shoulders. Almost the same as the Centurion. If this same thing starts happening on the Victor, it could be the best zombie assault ever.

[Errinovar]

Woah there @Justwannaplay,
let's go back to my original point.. Ill even bold it..

Errinovar, on 28 June 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

First, it's neither a bug nor a cheat/exploit. This phenomena works the same for every chassis in the game. All these tests can be directly applied to any model, simply shoot it in the arm, and then target the arm remains and continue shooting until you blow the core. The problem is people are aiming too high on the cent chassis, aim for the waist and if you hit them on the side it is direct damage to the side torso. Or better yet, either wait till they turn to fire to peg them directly or leg them.

You can tag the torso directly from the side of the cent chassis if you aim at the elbow or waist. The problem is not the size of the arm remains, the problem is people are trying to treat every chassis identically and failing to aim appropriately.

Just wanna play, on 28 June 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

da heck you talking about? the damage reduction is working fine on all chassis except the cent, where the arms hit box remains even after being destroyed, if this was a problem on a mech like the atlas it would easily take 800 points of damage (to the ct it self, excludes damage already done) to kill it when all shots hit the destroyed side torso

This is not a bug/exploit as you stated earlier as the damage reduction is working exactly the same on the cent chassis.

TL;DR: The cent chassis is fine, fix your aim.

[Just wanna play]

Errinovar, on 28 June 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Woah there @Justwannaplay,
let's go back to my original point.. Ill even bold it..



You can tag the torso directly from the side of the cent chassis if you aim at the elbow or waist. The problem is not the size of the arm remains, the problem is people are trying to treat every chassis identically and failing to aim appropriately.



This is not a bug/exploit as you stated earlier as the damage reduction is working exactly the same on the cent chassis.

TL;DR: The cent chassis is fine, fix your aim.

technically it is an exploit because the cent is one of the few mechs that can really take advantage of it, i dont beleive it is a good thing for certain mechs to be better with others when it comes to working with game mechanics, but this is just to much, a realistic combat sim should not offer the opportunity to reduce damage to 1/4th, imo it should be less of a damage reduction for the arms since right now legs reduce the damage by as much as arms do much its miuch easier to avoid hitting those

and its not like you ALWAYS will be able to hit where you want, and if you didnt already notice, iv pointed out your just repeating whats already been said and accepted, so this conversion no longer needs to continue because or lil conflict has been resolved

well actually now that i think of it how do you know that the damage reduction isnt a bug when its was previously thought to have only been for the side torsos and legs?? just because its on every mech doesn't mean it isnt a bug, it could be a bug that went unnoticed on other chassis (although some lights are also notorious for taking advantage of it) because the cent is one of the few that can abuse it, its like the srm splash dmg problem on lights, it could affect any mech but it was only lights that it could actually really happen to and so it really was a bug

Edited by Just wanna play, 28 June 2013 - 07:01 PM.

[Deathlike]

I will just say that w/o this feature in the Cent, it would really be terribad by many standards. In fact, this is probably the only reason why it is usable in competitive play.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 June 2013 - 10:36 PM.

[Steelgrave]

I know one thing, I tend to cheer every time I manage to kill one of the damn things.

Which is kinda cool for me. I find them challenging.

That's not to say they aren't broke though. Funny how the Awesome is made of glass and the Centurion is made of adamantium.

[Just wanna play]

hmm i wouldn't say GLASS let me correct it for you........

Steelgrave, on 28 June 2013 - 10:55 PM, said:

I know one thing, I tend to cheer every time I manage to kill one of the damn things.

Which is kinda cool for me. I find them challenging.

That's not to say they aren't broke though. Funny how the Awesome is made of *transparent steel* and the Centurion is made of adamantium.

[Ngamok]

Deathlike, on 28 June 2013 - 10:35 PM, said:

I will just say that w/o this feature in the Cent, it would really be terribad by many standards. In fact, this is probably the only reason why it is usable in competitive play.

So something that takes advantage of poor hit boxes makes it desirable? It's like saying that a shooter game has many guns but a slingshot will 1 hit kill you every time from 1000 yards because it uses the wrong damage value and competitive teams should use slingshots instead of ACRs because of it.

[Just wanna play]

Ngamok, on 29 June 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

So something that takes advantage of poor hit boxes makes it desirable? It's like saying that a shooter game has many guns but a slingshot will 1 hit kill you every time from 1000 yards because it uses the wrong damage value and competitive teams should use slingshots instead of ACRs because of it.

well he kind of does have a point since the hit box thing is a more in depth advantage some chassis have over others, for example stalkers are hard to kill from the front because of their ct hit boxes in comparison to the side torsos BUT lrms have a easier time hitting the ct because of the hit boxes and the way they are, so its just another more in-depth property further seperating mechs

[Odins Fist]

Are people really "CRYING" about the Centurion so much..?? It's left arm is a shield, meant to take damage, it loses it's right arm fairly quick..

Yes it seems to Zombie, and is this a hitbox problem..?? Or is it related to hit registration, and not totally the fault of hitbox size?
I have landed hits on all kinds of mechs and have seen damage not being done, and at 20 to 30 damage a hit, it is quite obvious this problem is not related soley with the Centurion alone.

The Spider gets a free pass though, I have seen a stationary spider tagging someone take 2-ERPPCs and a Gauss rifle to the back (at 175 meters) and just run away.. Hits confirmed (seemingly) crosshair turns red, the Spider lights up, but no damage..?? HUH..??
Watched a spider take all kinds if hits visually from multiple mechs, target locked, his Icon lights up, blinks colors watch him take hit after hit, but no change on his current damage taken.. But since he doesn't carry a big damage loadout for weapons, the Spider gets ignored..?? Ok then...

I have run Centurions, and yeah they are hard to kill sometimes, but usually all weapons systems have been knocked out except the center torso energy slot, leaving them only able to deal 9 to 10 damage, and people are affraid of that..?? The Centurion with an XL engine running 98 KPH with a Alpha strike of 19 is a big problem isn't it..??

Really..??

Edited by Odins Fist, 29 June 2013 - 10:18 AM.

[Steelgrave]

Just wanna play, on 29 June 2013 - 07:48 AM, said:

hmm i wouldn't say GLASS let me correct it for you........

Well now you're just getting technical

[Ngamok]

Just wanna play, on 29 June 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

well he kind of does have a point since the hit box thing is a more in depth advantage some chassis have over others, for example stalkers are hard to kill from the front because of their ct hit boxes in comparison to the side torsos BUT lrms have a easier time hitting the ct because of the hit boxes and the way they are, so its just another more in-depth property further seperating mechs

So you are fine with a 2xML 3xSRM6 brawler being more durable than a Cataphract? Because of the how well the Centurions zombie, they have at least that much armor or more the way it works.

[Deathlike]

Ngamok, on 29 June 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

So something that takes advantage of poor hit boxes makes it desirable? It's like saying that a shooter game has many guns but a slingshot will 1 hit kill you every time from 1000 yards because it uses the wrong damage value and competitive teams should use slingshots instead of ACRs because of it.

That's not quite the analogy I would use. It doesn't function quite like that analogy in the first place.

Ngamok, on 29 June 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

So you are fine with a 2xML 3xSRM6 brawler being more durable than a Cataphract? Because of the how well the Centurions zombie, they have at least that much armor or more the way it works.

You do realize that the common Cent-A is tough, but legging still works last I checked. They aren't invincible.. they're only "invincible" if you just going to keep wildly shooting the CT. Good CT shooting or outright legging still works. Those driving Cents well are usually excellent torso twisters.. so punishing good technique is silly at best.

[BP Raven]

Well driven Centurions seem so durable because the pilot has usually used up all of the armour on the mech, so for your regular zombie cent-A that's in the region of 320 (not counting the head here) points of damage right there, plus the arms and useless torso.

Generally when i die in mine i've not got much of the thing left, nearly every other mech i drive seems to die with lots of armour still yellow in all the non critical places, unless of course someone double legs me...

[LordBraxton]

I still dont understand this thread

centurions are tough for a medium

but honestly they arent hard to kill compared to any heavy or assault with a STD engine

[Ngamok]

Deathlike, on 29 June 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

That's not quite the analogy I would use. It doesn't function quite like that analogy in the first place.




You do realize that the common Cent-A is tough, but legging still works last I checked. They aren't invincible.. they're only "invincible" if you just going to keep wildly shooting the CT. Good CT shooting or outright legging still works. Those driving Cents well are usually excellent torso twisters.. so punishing good technique is silly at best.

All I am saying is that if the Centurion is getting damage transfer going to a blown off arm, it shouldn't be. I don't see how that is balanced at all because other mechs don't have that sort of feature. In that case, why take the other mediums when you essentially have more virtual armor in a Centurion. I understand that the torsos are actually more in and the arm stump being there gives it a false torso so to speak. I you keep a mech geometry in such as those arm stumps, just make them transfer any damage done to that section all go as torso damage instead of giving it a virtual arm still sitting there that transfers 50% to the torso.

Edited by Ngamok, 29 June 2013 - 08:23 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ngamok, on 29 June 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

All I am saying is that if the Centurion is getting damage transfer going to a blown off arm, it shouldn't be. I don't see how that is balanced at all because other mechs don't have that sort of feature. In that case, why take the other mediums when you essentially have more virtual armor in a Centurion. I understand that the torsos are actually more in and the arm stump being there gives it a false torso so to speak. I you keep a mech geometry in such as those arm stumps, just make them transfer any damage done to that section all go as torso damage instead of giving it a virtual arm still sitting there that transfers 50% to the torso.

The arms I understand.. but if its actually intended to keep that stub there (which to me, it sounds like the case), it really is incumbent upon you to recognize that and adjust appropriately.

Unless Centurions are deemed OP somehow (and to my knowledge, they are not), this happens to be a beneficial consequence of the change that doesn't have the same kinds of ramifications like the PPC Stalker or the Raven 3L (which, hitboxes AFAIK benefit from this behavior as well).

It would be better to keep aware of this behavior if/when it shows up again in another mech (the Victor seems to potentially be the next target that may benefit from this).

Edited by Deathlike, 29 June 2013 - 08:42 PM.

[Just wanna play]

Deathlike, on 29 June 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

The arms I understand.. but if its actually intended to keep that stub there (which to me, it sounds like the case), it really is incumbent upon you to recognize that and adjust appropriately.

Unless Centurions are deemed OP somehow (and to my knowledge, they are not), this happens to be a beneficial consequence of the change that doesn't have the same kinds of ramifications like the PPC Stalker or the Raven 3L (which, hitboxes AFAIK benefit from this behavior as well).

It would be better to keep aware of this behavior if/when it shows up again in another mech (the Victor seems to potentially be the next target that may benefit from this).

they should change the hit boxes of the arms on the awesome to let it take advantage of the same mechanic.........wont go against anything in canon but it will certainly help a supposedly "rugged and reliable" mech survive

[Deathlike]

Just wanna play, on 30 June 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

they should change the hit boxes of the arms on the awesome to let it take advantage of the same mechanic.........wont go against anything in canon but it will certainly help a supposedly "rugged and reliable" mech survive

I was always for that change... because the Stalker and future Victor are better.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 June 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Flashback37]

If this is really such a problem there would be multiple threads about how YLW is P2W.
A nigh indestructable hero mech? oh noes!!!!

But there are not a bunch of threads like that, in fact most threads about the Wang are about how much it sucks.
(It doesn't really suck if you know how to drive it)

Too, you must consider that anyone who pilots Cents will have learned how to torso twist and move in order to avoid/spread damage.
My best game ever was in a Wang and ended with no arms and armor in the red on every part of the mech. One more hit anywhere would have critted something. Luckily the timer ran out as I was against 2 assaults and a heavy with only a zombie cat as backup.