103 replies to this topic

[BlackIronTarkus]

zraven7, on 03 June 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

First of all, some of us (a lot of us) play to win. We will take the tactical option most likely to give us a win. If your team is full of 40 kph mechs who all promptly leave the base undefended, well, we know what tactical option will most ensure a win, don't we?

Second, if you flip out like I think you do when someone wins by base cap, that's a win and post-match entertainment, all for 3 minutes of work.

You don't want me to cap? Make it hard for me to cap. Simple.

What do you think, that I didnt know that already? I play to win, I also play to have fun and I try to be good sport no matter what game I play.

All your assumtions are so full of ignorance its actually hurting my brain. Im the kind of guy that try too coordinate my pug as much as possible, I call out targets, I request help, I tell people to flank and I warn my teamates if the enemies are coming toward our base and of course I do all these things myself as well. So stop acting like I was raging because some clown capped our base because its not the case. If we are losing the first thing I will do is try to cap their base if possible. Especialy on large maps.

I like to win, but Im not a troll, if I roll a light and head directly to their base its to pull 1-2 assault back to give my teamates the advantage, if I see nobody come, I wont cap because its boring for everybody!

point is; ITS A SH!TY MECHANIC.

[zraven7]

BlackIronTarkus, on 03 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

What do you think, that I didnt know that already? I play to win, I also play to have fun and I try to be good sport no matter what game I play.

All your assumtions are so full of ignorance its actually hurting my brain. Im the kind of guy that try too coordinate my pug as much as possible, I call out targets, I request help, I tell people to flank and I warn my teamates if the enemies are coming toward our base and of course I do all these things myself as well. So stop acting like I was raging because some clown capped our base because its not the case. If we are losing the first thing I will do is try to cap their base if possible. Especialy on large maps.

I like to win, but Im not a troll, if I roll a light and head directly to their base its to pull 1-2 assault back to give my teamates the advantage, if I see nobody come, I wont cap because its boring for everybody!

point is; ITS A SH!TY MECHANIC.

So, what you're saying is, you do everything to prevent base capture, but it still happens within two minutes.

Either you can't count time, or you over-estimate your tactical prowess.

Also, if you start to cap the base, and no one comes to stop you, and you stop because of that, you are willingly giving up the win.

[Vodrin Thales]

Daeonwolf, on 02 June 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

I hate base rushing. I've been in games where barely 2 minutes in I've lost because 4+ lights rushed the base and took it over practically before anyone had a chance to turn around and stop them. No encountering the enemy, no shots fired, just 'You Lose!' plastered on the screen and the other side laughing at us. Alpine Peaks is especially bad for base rushing. It’s too big, too spread out. And it's not the losing that bugs me, it's the fact that they've taken from me what I was really after: the enjoyment and entertainment of piloting and shooting at a bunch of giant, heavily armed robots!

'Then leave someone behind to guard the base!' you say. Really, how many of you out there would want to park at the base and miss out on the action? And even if someone was willing to 'take one for the team' and play babysitter, think how losing 12% to 25% (1 or 2 people) of your force 'just in case' would affect the situation out in the battlefield when you encounter the enemy. If they haven't left anyone behind, then you're out numbered.

So, here are my proposals for fixing this:

The first is more straight forward but not my favorite: make base capture impossible for the first 5 (or possibly 10) minutes of the game. I don't have a problem losing to base capture, especially if the other side uses it as a strategy to turn the tide of a battle they're losing. That's a good game to me and I'll tip my hat to those who out maneuvered us. It's just the damn early rushers who win the game without any effort that tick me off.

The second option is the one I personally like more: On the assault maps, make the 'base' a destroyable object. Heavily armored and needing a lot of hits, I think it would change the balance of base assaults in some interesting ways. First, lights could base rush still, but they'd actually be at a disadvantage for winning since they (usually) lack seriously heavy firepower. It would take them longer to destroy the base than a heavy or assault mech that lumbered all the way across the map. Second, the assaulter would have to think strategically while trying to capture: do they attack conservatively? Or go all out and burn up their ammo/heat, risking putting themselves in a bad situation if the defenders return? A little tweaking of the maps would probably be needed, basically making sure there was some sort of terrain around about 180 degree arc to prevent super long range sniping. But personally, I think it would make base capture interesting and even exciting. And make it a *lot* harder to rush capture and ruin a match before it even starts.

There may be other options out there, but these are my suggestions for now.

The main problem I see with either of your solutions is that is makes light and medium mechs less useful than they currently are, and we have too much incentive to use heavy and assaults only as it is. The only real reason to take smaller mechs right now is to scout effectively to prevent this sort of thing.

[Budor]

Option 3: Stop dropping in assaults and being part off your own problem.

[vettie]

While I agree that Base Capping is a very valid tactic, like many I do not have to like it and unless I am playing Conquest, I dont like it.

Many say defend your base. Dont over extend yourself, Your team got capped because your team played badly.

So here's a typical day in MWO. I generally always play assault mode. Why? I prefer the battle aspect to the capture aspect. Fav mech Class? Mediums.

Typical Day - I just bought a new mech X. I am working out the basic tree. I configure my mech to what I think will work on most maps for most situations (I am NOT a boater). I launch. I am put into a mp with 7 people I do NOT know. I type in please check the tunnel. I head up midway towards the dropship cautiously looking side to side as well as forward. "Your base is being Captured" sounds out and shows on my screen. Its on my screen, so i am pretty sure it si on other team members screen as well. I turn and go back to base as I see the bar dropping faster than I expect for 1 mech to be capping. I get there. 2 to 3 mechs are there and 0 team mates. I type in HELP AT BASE. I start shooting as I enter the square. I take one down. The other 2 kill me quickly. Base is capped. Less than 5 minutes gone. I lose.

I relaunch. This time Forest Colony. Again 7 mates I dont know. We head out from the water side base. I type - please check cave and maybe someone look at the water side. I move up to roughly the culvert area. "Base is being Capped comes up". I return again to see 2 or more mechs capping my base. I take one and seriously damage another after typing need help at base. I am again killed. Again in spectator mode I see 2 Atlas and 1 Stalker of MY team headed up the curve towards their base. I lose. End of round - 2 Atlas 1 Stalker produced 0 damage between the 3 of them.

I relaunch - One of my favourites - Caustic Valley, but I RARELY get this map in rotation. We launch and again 7 unknowns I am teamed with. One says 3 Line and the entire team heads up the 3 line. 2 stalkers, 2 Atlas, 1 Cataphract, Me in a medium, a Jenner and a Highlander. AS we get about mid way and have not even spotted an enemy - I type in Base race? No reply they just keep going. The other team came across center caldera expecting a fight and finding no one proceeds to get on our base and cap. They got to ours first and the map ends. i lose. Yes, i could have stopped or even turned back. 1 v 7 or 8? maybe I take 1, maybe lucky and get 2. Doubtful i would even make it to base before they capped...so no joy on fav map, 4 more minutes gone.

I played 5 maps BEFORE i got to one that teams actually fought. 5.

Altho not impossible. teamwork generation with solos (pugs as you call them) is very difficult even when you do try to make it so. many times I have seen lights MUCH closer to base than me, yet not engaged in battle, NOT return to base to see what is going on. On the other hand, I have seen 5 to 6 mechs turn around and head back to see the lone spider run away while his team mates charge over the hill and murder most in the back....

You say make some friends. Most of my friends get started alter in the day / early evening US eastern time. We then form up and play 8 mans. We have only ever been capped 1 time in 8 mans.

Using Cap threat to draw enemy from front lines is very valid. Actually capping is valid. IF there were a TDM, that is what i would play. There isnt. not because players dont want, but its a cost measure. Team Death Matches usually run for longer times than our current 2 game modes. And oft times, there is the 1 last guy that will run off and shut down to avoid death, even tho his team are all dead. This extends the game to full length, as the enemy searches for that 1 shut down mech. If there were a cap, you could instead just cap and end the match thus saving on server time. server time aint cheap.

So the next closest thing for me is Assault Mode.

Suggestion would be that the Base Alarm still sound off and message comes on screen, but that the cap countdown wont start until at least 4 mechs have been killed (en total, not just 4 per team). so if the score is 2 to 2 the cap could now begin. This would prevent the first 2 to 4 minutes of a game ending via Cap...

What i dont understand is those that seem to Base Race Cap every match. If this is your fun, why NOT play Conquest. there be 5 bases - cap away!

Edited by vettie, 03 June 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[zraven7]

vettie, on 03 June 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

While I agree that Base Capping is a very valid tactic, like many I do not have to like it and unless I am playing Conquest, I dont like it.

Many say defend your base. Dont over extend yourself, Your team got capped because your team played badly.

So here's a typical day in MWO. I generally always play assault mode. Why? I prefer the battle aspect to the capture aspect. Fav mech Class? Mediums.

Typical Day - I just bought a new mech X. I am working out the basic tree. I configure my mech to what I think will work on most maps for most situations (I am NOT a boater). I launch. I am put into a mp with 7 people I do NOT know. I type in please check the tunnel. I head up midway towards the dropship cautiously looking side to side as well as forward. "Your base is being Captured" sounds out and shows on my screen. Its on my screen, so i am pretty sure it si on other team members screen as well. I turn and go back to base as I see the bar dropping faster than I expect for 1 mech to be capping. I get there. 2 to 3 mechs are there and 0 team mates. I type in HELP AT BASE. I start shooting as I enter the square. I take one down. The other 2 kill me quickly. Base is capped. Less than 5 minutes gone. I lose.

I relaunch. This time Forest Colony. Again 7 mates I dont know. We head out from the water side base. I type - please check cave and maybe someone look at the water side. I move up to roughly the culvert area. "Base is being Capped comes up". I return again to see 2 or more mechs capping my base. I take one and seriously damage another after typing need help at base. I am again killed. Again in spectator mode I see 2 Atlas and 1 Stalker of MY team headed up the curve towards their base. I lose. End of round - 2 Atlas 1 Stalker produced 0 damage between the 3 of them.

I relaunch - One of my favourites - Caustic Valley, but I RARELY get this map in rotation. We launch and again 7 unknowns I am teamed with. One says 3 Line and the entire team heads up the 3 line. 2 stalkers, 2 Atlas, 1 Cataphract, Me in a medium, a Jenner and a Highlander. AS we get about mid way and have not even spotted an enemy - I type in Base race? No reply they just keep going. The other team came across center caldera expecting a fight and finding no one proceeds to get on our base and cap. They got to ours first and the map ends. i lose. Yes, i could have stopped or even turned back. 1 v 7 or 8? maybe I take 1, maybe lucky and get 2. Doubtful i would even make it to base before they capped...so no joy on fav map, 4 more minutes gone.

I played 5 maps BEFORE i got to one that teams actually fought. 5.

Altho not impossible. teamwork generation with solos (pugs as you call them) is very difficult even when you do try to make it so. many times I have seen lights MUCH closer to base than me, yet not engaged in battle, NOT return to base to see what is going on. On the other hand, I have seen 5 to 6 mechs turn around and head back to see the lone spider run away while his team mates charge over the hill and murder most in the back....

You say make some friends. Most of my friends get started alter in the day / early evening US eastern time. We then form up and play 8 mans. We have only ever been capped 1 time in 8 mans.

Using Cap threat to draw enemy from front lines is very valid. Actually capping is valid. IF there were a TDM, that is what i would play. There isnt. not because players dont want, but its a cost measure. Team Death Matches usually run for longer times than our current 2 game modes. And oft times, there is the 1 last guy that will run off and shut down to avoid death, even tho his team are all dead. This extends the game to full length, as the enemy searches for that 1 shut down mech. If there were a cap, you could instead just cap and end the match thus saving on server time. server time aint cheap.

So the next closest thing for me is Assault Mode.

What i dont understand is those that seem to Base Race Cap every match. If this is your fun, why NOT play Conquest. there be 5 bases - cap away!

Ok, easy fix here.

Step 1) Change your Faction status from "Merc" to "Lone Wolf"

Step 2) Go here:

http://mwomercs.com/...g-solo-players/

Step 3) Follow given links and directions, and just about always have people to drop with.

[Jman5]

Quote

I am put into a mp with 7 people I do NOT know. I type in please check the tunnel.

I know that getting base capping is a frustrating way to lose, but it's in your power to counter it with just a little more effort than you're already putting in.

It's good that you are talking to your team, but if you are pugging and ask someone to scout a path, it is absolutely crucial that you check that it actually gets done. Pull up the big map and see who is going where. Talking about covering the alternate path is a great first step but it can't stop there.

Generally what you want to do is say something like: "Hey, can someone watch tunnel?" Then you pop up the big map and see if anyone says something or heads that way. If no one does it, then you must take it upon yourself to do the watching. You can cover the tunnel on maps like Frozen City and Forest Colony in any mech, so you don't have to be in a commando to cover your team's flank.

The important thing is being willing to adjust your usual plan to compliment your team. You don't know what these 7 other guys are going to do or if they even speak English. If they play well and cover the cave properly, that's great. If they go off with their own plan, well then it's time for you to step up to the plate and be a team player.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

One good solution is defend base.
And the second is not to play 4-man 4 poptarts

[vettie]

zraven7, on 03 June 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Ok, easy fix here.

Step 1) Change your Faction status from "Merc" to "Lone Wolf"

Step 2) Go here:

http://mwomercs.com/...g-solo-players/

Step 3) Follow given links and directions, and just about always have people to drop with.

Than you for the link.

Problem is I am a leader of a Merc Unit (because we cant have Pirates, BOO!)
Simple fact is I am medically retired and have more spare time to invest than many do.
I use the a.m. hours to complete my mech trees and tweak different configs.
I also join in on some of the 'contests' knowing I dont have a chance to win, but enjoying the fun.
I have used the NGNG TS3 and the community others as a pup. I dont find that as fun.

I really wasnt complaining so much about cap as I was pointing out what happens and the lack of control so many have over what happens in game. Hope I didnt sound like a whiner, lol.

Fact is, most of the players of the game, and many that just run to cap from the start ( I have seen assaults do it (Pretty Baby on Alpine)) DONT even read the forums, so a lot of what is said or suggested here never those that cause the grief or joy.

BUt thanx again for the info!

Edited by vettie, 03 June 2013 - 09:33 AM.

[WildeKarde]

I've hiked back on tourmaline in a highlander to stop a cap, no one else on the team responded. Got back there at 90% captured to find a cicada capping. Ended up I had to sit in the base as it kept sneaking back towards the base - ended up dead when I hit it's leg on a shot

People mostly ignore a cap in PUG's from my experience, I either head back if I'm in something quick enough or keep attacking if not. Had one on Sunday where we split in two lances on caustic around the summit. We ended up in the enemy base capping as the other four mechs got savaged in about two minutes. We'd have gained nothing with four of us against eight whereas we ended up winning.

Capping should be in the game but would be nice to actually fight at times and not just bypass each other on the way to cap.

[Joseph Mallan]

BlackIronTarkus, on 03 June 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

What do you think, that I didnt know that already? I play to win, I also play to have fun and I try to be good sport no matter what game I play.

All your assumtions are so full of ignorance its actually hurting my brain. Im the kind of guy that try too coordinate my pug as much as possible, I call out targets, I request help, I tell people to flank and I warn my teamates if the enemies are coming toward our base and of course I do all these things myself as well. So stop acting like I was raging because some clown capped our base because its not the case. If we are losing the first thing I will do is try to cap their base if possible. Especialy on large maps.

I like to win, but Im not a troll, if I roll a light and head directly to their base its to pull 1-2 assault back to give my teamates the advantage, if I see nobody come, I wont cap because its boring for everybody!

point is; ITS A SH!TY MECHANIC.

It is not a bad mechanic, but when you lose to it it is embarrassing, and it should be. Your team for what ever reason failed to defend your stuff like you were supposed to.

[zraven7]

vettie, on 03 June 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

Than you for the link.

Problem is I am a leader of a Merc Unit (because we cant have Pirates, BOO!)
Simple fact is I am medically retired and have more spare time to invest than many do.
I use the a.m. hours to complete my mech trees and tweak different configs.
I also join in on some of the 'contests' knowing I dont have a chance to win, but enjoying the fun.
I have used the NGNG TS3 and the community others as a pup. I dont find that as fun.

I really wasnt complaining so much about cap as I was pointing out what happens and the lack of control so many have over what happens in game. Hope I didnt sound like a whiner, lol.

Fact is, most of the players of the game, and many that just run to cap from the start ( I have seen assaults do it (Pretty Baby on Alpine)) DONT even read the forums, so a lot of what is said or suggested here never those that cause the grief or joy.

BUt thanx again for the info!

Np dude. Can't wait to see ya dirtside. :-)

[StonedVet]

zraven7, on 03 June 2013 - 07:57 AM, said:

To make a balanced team, make seven friends, and form a balanced team. I know, crazy, but it sometimes works.

Second, ten auto-targeting gauss would be catastrophic. If you get in range of, say, three, that's 45 points of damage to a body part. They would likely fire for center of mass. On anything but an assault or the front-side of a Cataphract, that's either an arm gone or your front armor plate missing. And that would be just the first volley.


No, you don't play for that. Apparently, all the people who just did that to you do play for that. This is why you lost.

Making 7 friends and playing 8 man is the most unbalanced gaming there is. 8man is nowhere near as fun as having a 4man and goin at it with random people. The lame setups and cheese you get in 8 man is pathetic. Its so bad the devs wont play it. You either go against 8 poptarts or 8 lights which base rush you. Losing to base cap in the first 2 minutes of game play is not your team screwing up either, its the fact the other team either is running light and has no chance in hell at winning or they hate the map which ive seen done.

Lets face it .. 95% of the people playing and getting base rushed hate the concept, the only other people who dare defend it are the ones who do it and relish in the fact they get a 25k reward at end match instead of fighting it out for 200k+

[Doomstryke]

While I'm fine with it since its really not "THAT' much of an issue, I'd much rather they implement something more along the lines of king of the hill IE one base only in a random place on the map. Find it and fight for it. Not each their own base and should be found not marked on the map. That sounds more Assaulty then 2 bases and go.

[Zypher]

I think the base is just a place holder for now. It might make sense if the base was a building some sort with rudimentary defenses in which you had to blow up a gate. Once you got to the cap point beyond the gate it would be an instant win. Obviously it would take time to take the gate down and something like a light or medium couldn't just ignore the defenses.

This way a light wouldn't always be the best way to take a base as you still need firepower to make it happen. A medium could be a good mix of speed and firepower and might actually be useful in this scenario.

I think the main problem is the cap point doesn't make sense, I am not sure how sitting in some arbitrary point for X amount of time decides the fate of combat active mechs.

[AntiBot]

if u want people to defend there should be a reward for it score wise or it wont happen

atm u are better of spamming dps in mid, that tends to give u the best average score

So i claim it is not the people that are stupid per se (they probably are) but it is the score system that doesnt reward any form of intelligent play

Edited by AntiBot, 03 June 2013 - 09:29 AM.

[vettie]

Jman5, on 03 June 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

I know that getting base capping is a frustrating way to lose, but it's in your power to counter it with just a little more effort than you're already putting in.

It's good that you are talking to your team, but if you are pugging and ask someone to scout a path, it is absolutely crucial that you check that it actually gets done. Pull up the big map and see who is going where. Talking about covering the alternate path is a great first step but it can't stop there.

Generally what you want to do is say something like: "Hey, can someone watch tunnel?" Then you pop up the big map and see if anyone says something or heads that way. If no one does it, then you must take it upon yourself to do the watching. You can cover the tunnel on maps like Frozen City and Forest Colony in any mech, so you don't have to be in a commando to cover your team's flank.

The important thing is being willing to adjust your usual plan to compliment your team. You don't know what these 7 other guys are going to do or if they even speak English. If they play well and cover the cave properly, that's great. If they go off with their own plan, well then it's time for you to step up to the plate and be a team player.

Oh I do that. If I ask to check cave and water, i check to see which is NOT being done and head to that one. Cant do both at the same time.

Unless I play conquest, or 8 mans, I usually dont have a plan because,a s you said, you dont know what the others are going to do. If someone requests help and I am not being clobbered by 1 or 2, I will try to respond IF i make it there.

But this is more about the cap happening or happening to quickly than personal tactics (sort of).

I really do think that if the counter did not start a count down until at least 4 deaths are registered (currently 25% of on map forces) that ending the game in under 5 minutes via cap would go away. The biggest problem with this is that NO one would then go back or even defend base if the count down didnt start.... There would be more fighting, but a valid aspect of the game would be nullified...so i dont know a good solution...

Defend the base - yeah, but do you really want to hang around less than 1k from your base while the entire team runs off on a killing spree and ends up dying and then looking at you - why didnt you help? Uh, i was defending base....

I dont know.

[zraven7]

Lowridah, on 03 June 2013 - 09:27 AM, said:

Making 7 friends and playing 8 man is the most unbalanced gaming there is. 8man is nowhere near as fun as having a 4man and goin at it with random people. The lame setups and cheese you get in 8 man is pathetic. Its so bad the devs wont play it. You either go against 8 poptarts or 8 lights which base rush you. Losing to base cap in the first 2 minutes of game play is not your team screwing up either, its the fact the other team either is running light and has no chance in hell at winning or they hate the map which ive seen done.

Lets face it .. 95% of the people playing and getting base rushed hate the concept, the only other people who dare defend it are the ones who do it and relish in the fact they get a 25k reward at end match instead of fighting it out for 200k+

So, you have a solution, but won't choose it because "it's unbalanced"?

Yeah, somehow, I think it's more about you not wanting to learn actual tactics.

You just keep complaining, and I'll keep winning. Have a good one.

[vettie]

AntiBot, on 03 June 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

if u want people to defend there should be a reward for it score wise or it wont happen

There is a reward- if you kill a base capper you get a saviour kill and xp bonus for it

[Bunko]

Light's purpose is speed. Speed is used to cap and to spot. So it sounds like you are anti-Light unless the Light is spotting for you.

Learn to play the map. Defend your base.