1139 replies to this topic

[Zerberus]

Wintersdark, on 08 June 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Not silence, Bryan said why. Also, consider that while strawberry has been delayed, ALL YOUR ICE CREAM IS FREE!

******** it, Santa brought me the wrong Christmas present AGAIN!

Quoted for Pure Win content

[InRev]

Hammertrial, on 07 June 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Wow...this post got entirely screwed up somehow....Editting most of it back in...

EDIT:

I would argue that a 3rd person only queue is a special game setting. After all, special is having a specific or particular function, purpose, etc. of which 3rd person only is.



I completely arguree that its a nightmare in terms of clarity! But to argue that 3rd person was promised and guarenteed to never be in the game just has no basis in reality from that post. And thats the issue I take with it.

I argue with lawyers for a living, and so I'm pretty heavily reliant on facts. After all, opinions are like ********, everyone has one.

The fact is, that post clearly indicates 3rd at the very least being investigated for the future (in which case the invesigation clearly gave a greenlight). You also can't argue that the 100% first person contradicts the third person and is the ruling statement without also arguing that the third person contradicts the 100% first and is the ruling statement. Could PGI have been more clear, YES!

There are so many other reasons to be upset at PGI (DX11, 12v12, CW, collisions) that have clear timelines and dates that you can readily find that aren't being met and delayed near indefinitely.

But yet we have these completely overblown reactions to 3rd and the Orion not being released this month, two things that were NEVER PROMISED. There is 0 evidence of either statements being made.

You can have your opinions, you can't have your own facts.

Fair enough. I think we can be friends My condolences for your frequent interactions with lawyers. I am forced to spend my days poring over and conducting line-by-line analyses of texts (political memos, poetry, speeches, plays, etc) in both English and Spanish so logical consistency and speaker intent is also very much so ingrained in my poor brain.

Like you said, in that notorious post, the former also contradicts the latter so a person reading the second half of the post would be as correct in their interpretation as someone reading the first. It would appear that that particular perspective has been lost, so I apologize for neglecting it. At least we are in agreement about the lack of clarity!

I won't lie, 3PV in and of itself isn't really that big of a deal for me. I started playing this game after 3PV was already announced so it was something which I had already accepted. My issue is more due to the lack of clarity and communication from our developer overlords. I genuinely enjoy this game. The lastest patch shows that PGI is on the right track, and I haven't had this much fun in-game in a long time.

However, their communication desperately needs help. To use Orion-gate as an example, a large segment (I won't say majority because I don't have numbers, but it seems like a majority) of this community genuinely believed it was the next mech. Syllogy even had it slated as such in his Upcoming Features thread, a thread that is also stickied and thus tacitly approved by this company. If it was never meant to be the next mech, as the story seems to be, then someone should have popped in and said "sorry for the confusion, but the Orion is not coming in June. Expect an announcement soon!" Is this a small, perhaps irrelevant incident in terms of its import? Of course. It's just one batch of polygons and pixels instead of another. However, believe it or not, a lot of people were really looking forward to the ugly thing and now feel like they have been baited-and-switched. One cannot rationalize emotion or disappointment, especially since the miscommunication never had to happen.

We always hear that they are short-staffed so if that is responsible, so be it. I just really, genuinely hope that this whole toxic experience has turned a few heads and taught PGI to do some logic-checks on their statements and to be a little more interactive, although, at this point, the community is a bit on the insurgent side.

TL;DR: Two forum adversaries reach a truce!

[Cache]

Zaptruder, on 08 June 2013 - 03:09 AM, said:

"Hey buddy, I've got a new flavour of icecream; Strawberry Icecream!"

"Sure, shopkeeper, I'd like a strawberry ice cream please."

*gets handed a chocolate ice cream*

"Wait... why did you give me a chocolate ice cream?"

*stony silence*

"WTF man?!"

More like...

Sign on the wall of the free ice cream parlor reads, "Coming soon! Strawberry ice-cream."

Child walks in and asks for strawberry, gets told it isn't available yet, is given berry flavor that just arrived.

Tantrum ensues.

Edited by Cache, 08 June 2013 - 07:46 AM.

[Zerberus]

InRev, on 08 June 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

although, at this point, the community is a bit on the insurgent side.

A BIT? I think more often than not MechQaeda accurately discribes most of the populace's reactions to any percieved slip ups

[Lonestar1771]

Lol, yep guess I'm one of the dissenters since my post has been deleted.

[Zerberus]

Lonestar1771, on 08 June 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

Lol, yep guess I'm one of the dissenters since my post has been deleted.

2 or 3 of mine were, too... looks like everything posted over numerous hours was just snipped out, regardless of viewpoint.

[RG Notch]

Zerberus, on 08 June 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

A BIT? I think more often than not MechQaeda accurately discribes most of the populace's reactions to any percieved slip ups

And of course that's the community's fault because the community has all the info but doesn't share it in a timely, organized or professional manner correct? People are acting like this is the first time that PGI has screwed up in this department. But again all those previous examples were also the communities fault I guess. The community foolishly expected professionalism and instead gets the marketing and community management efforts of a volunteer mod team.
If you accept barely adequate you will never be disappointed by PGI again. Lower your standards, that always makes for good results in the end.

[Zerberus]

RG Notch, on 08 June 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

And of course that's the community's fault because the community has all the info but doesn't share it in a timely, organized or professional manner correct?

Did I say that? No, thank you.

Does the community still overract to every ant fart like it`s the Yellowstone Supervolcano? Yes

When such conduct is then "backed up" by continuous reiteration of prophecies of Doom and Gloom....meh.

PGI owes us nothing. Nada. Zilch.

But that does not stop us as a whole from incessantly demanding, then acting like a spoiled child when it doesn`t go our way, regardless of whether something was actually promised to us or not. In fact, it gors so far as to demonize them for not doing things that they have previously said they will not do, or flaming them for noot getting something done in time for the patch, 2 weeks after they said it was not ready yer (recent SSRM debacle).

Looking for excuses to whine 24/7 does not make the whine itself more valid. It only annoys people that understand life.

Edited by Zerberus, 08 June 2013 - 09:05 AM.

[RG Notch]

Zerberus, on 08 June 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Did I say that? No, thank you.

Does the community still overract to every ant fart like it`s the Yellowstone Supervolcano? Yes

When such conduct is then "backed up" by continuous reiteration of prophecies of Doom and Gloom....meh.

PGI owes us nothing. Nada. Zilch.

But that does not stop us as a whole from incessantly demanding, then acting like a spoiled child when it doesn`t go our way, regardless of whether something was actually promised to us or not. In fact, it gors so far as to demonize them for not doing things that they have previously said they will not do, or flaming them for noot getting something done in time for the patch, 2 weeks after they said it was not ready yer (recent SSRM debacle).

Looking for excuses to whine 24/7 does not make the whine itself more valid. It only annoys people that understand life.

So like I said, have low standards and everything is fine? Why expect better, when you can tolerate less? Is the reaction over the top often? Sure, but again, you reap what you sow. Who else manages to announce new content and have it be a debacle?
I understand that some people feel the need to White Knight for PGI because they apparently don't have a competent community manager to umm manage the community. So go for it. PGI needs all the help it can get.

[Zerberus]

RG Notch, on 08 June 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

So like I said, have low standards and everything is fine? Why expect better, when you can tolerate less?

Ironically, the community holds itself to a MUCH lower standard than it does PGI. It expects perfection and nothing else, but itself delivers steaming piles of guano for the most part. And Bans for blatant, continued misconduct are rare at best.

So what does that say about PGIs expectations of US? That they are realistic? Or that they have simpply come to expect to be force feed said Bat excrements no matter what?

Some swords cut both ways

Quote

I understand that some people feel the need to White Knight for PGI because they apparently don't have a competent community manager to umm manage the community. So go for it. PGI needs all the help it can get.

You call it white knighting, I call it understanding basic economics and game development as applied our current state of reality and dimension. I think we`ll just have to agree to disagree on the terminology.

[RG Notch]

Zerberus, on 08 June 2013 - 09:21 AM, said:

Ironically, the community holds itself to a MUCH lower standard than it does PGI. It expects perfection and nothing else, but itself delivers steaming piles of guano for the most part. And Bans for blatant, continued misconduct are rare at best.

So what does that say about PGIs expectations of US? That they are realistic? Or that they have simpply come to expect to be force feed said Bat excrements no matter what?

Some swords cut both ways


You call it white knighting, I call it understanding basic economics and game development as applied our current state of reality and dimension. I think we`ll just have to agree to disagree on the terminology.

Obviously we disagree as to what is acceptable business practices and if this is normal I feel bad the future. While unreasonable people expect perfection, reasonable people expect to see communication and well progress. If you are happy with the progress or lack there of I salute your low standards. There's nothing wrong with having low standards, it keeps one from being disappointed. It keeps companies from having to go the extra mile as there are consumers happy to accept low quality. It only really hurts people who want more than barely adequate that seems the "reality" of the game design industry. According to the white knights and PGI there sadly aren't many of us. So keeping it "real" is the way of the future.
I just can't see how people are really happy with the way this company is handling this game. I'm not saying it's a total disaster and PGI is the devil as the extreme of the other side says. I just wish people would hold PGI to a reasonable standard of communication and development and not simply go to the rote "it's beta", "real world companies screw ups all the time so let's just accept screw ups" mantra. Time will tell if PGI can make this game a success or if the MW franchise will need to wait another decade if ever to have a shot at a good game. Letting PGI slip by with weak excuses and hope is a dangerous recipe if one wants the game to do well. But apparently for some folks we should just ignore their track record and hope it will magically get better without anyone ever saying PGI has made an error or any type.
So don't worry PGI, some people will attack whatever you do and some will defend whatever you do. The real key is that you know to ignore both types. The real answer lies in the middle as it always does. Stop screwing up, communicate better and the folks in the middle will support you, there's not enough people at either extreme to matter.

[Grimmnyr]

To change the subject, the most enjoyable metagame in MWO for me is tinkering in the mechlab. I think it would be cool if PGI was able to give us the ability to modify / upgrade the actuators and Gyro on our mechs in order to give our mechs custom quirks. Of course these custom quirks would have to be balance out with negative reactions, like say, the arms move faster, but have a chance of locking for the rest of the game.

[ryoma]

In light of recent player complaints of the difficulty finding matches in third person mode we have researched the problem and found that all their potential opponents are playing in 1st person only community warfare. To rectify the situation we are merging 1st and 3rd person queues for CW. Enjoy!

Us: but you said that they'd be seperate!

PGI: they were seperate, but it wasn't working out. I hope you understand that was our position at the the time

[RG Notch]

ryoma, on 08 June 2013 - 01:56 PM, said:

In light of recent player complaints of the difficulty finding matches in third person mode we have researched the problem and found that all their potential opponents are playing in 1st person only community warfare. To rectify the situation we are merging 1st and 3rd person queues for CW. Enjoy!

Us: but you said that they'd be seperate!

PGI: they were seperate, but it wasn't working out. I hope you understand that was our position at the the time

And the same people telling us how there will be separate queues will kindly explain that things change and that in the real world that is what happens. They never guaranteed that the queues would be separate forever and the white knights will spin it as a positive. Do people really think this game can support these suppossed separate queues in the long run? Well I mean people besides the Knights Who Say YAAAAA.

[ryoma]

My actual number one fear for this game is that it dies. The gameplay is fun, but PGI keeps pulling EA tier decisions. Consumables, modules, and third person view are doing more to harm than help the game.

[Grimmnyr]

RG Notch, on 08 June 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

And the same people telling us how there will be separate queues will kindly explain that things change and that in the real world that is what happens. They never guaranteed that the queues would be separate forever and the white knights will spin it as a positive. Do people really think this game can support these suppossed separate queues in the long run? Well I mean people besides the Knights Who Say YAAAAA.

Careful with the labelling and insults, you might get yourself censored ;-). I think that we need to have a "beer summit" to resolve our differences, LOL.

Edited by Ed Steele, 08 June 2013 - 02:35 PM.

[InRev]

If I may, the ice cream analogy has been bothering me a bit today as it omitted a few key details in order to achieve a desired effect. Therefore, I have fleshed out the analogy to ensure that no details are missed!

Say there is an ice-cream shop in wonderful, sunny Canada. This ice-cream shop is very popular so it often receives business that is beyond its staffing levels. Now one day, the ice cream shop announces a new flavor. This flavor is very popular amongst its clientele, who have been calling for its introduction for a long time. Now, this ice cream shop had established a trend with the manner in which is announces flavors. Every flavor but one (which could not be offered quite yet because they needed a soft-serve machine) was offered in the same order in which it was announced. For the one flavor that was the exception, the employees told the customers very promptly, thus preventing disappointment from becoming anger.

Seeing this trend, an intrepid customer wrote on the ice cream shop's whiteboard that this new announced flavor would be coming on a certain date. There was much rejoicing! Many simply could not wait for this flavor. The weeks went by and the announcement stayed on the ice cream shop's official white board. The other customers, seeing the announcement, took it to be an official date as it was never altered by the staff.

Imagine the surprise and disappointment when a completely different flavor was offered instead and the customers were told that they would have to wait another 4 months to get their favorite! There were much confusion, many tears, and picket lines outside the ice-cream shop, even though the new flavor was actually pretty damn good itself. Why did this happen? The employees saw the announcement daily, and not a one changed it. Were they too busy to just walk to the other side and erase it? Were they not actually informed of the decisions made by their superiors and thus not responsible for the announcement remaining? This question remained in the head of a poor, confused little cherub named Jimmy.

"But why didn't they erase the white board?" asked little Jimmy to his mother. "Why did they get my hopes up?", his big, brown eyes welling with tears.
"Life's tough you little ********, deal with it", replied the battleaxe.

. . . to be continued.

[Grimmnyr]

InRev, on 08 June 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

If I may, the ice cream analogy has been bothering me a bit today as it omitted a few key details in order to achieve a desired effect. Therefore, I have fleshed out the analogy to ensure that no details are missed!

Say there is an ice-cream shop in wonderful, sunny Canada. This ice-cream shop is very popular so it often receives business that is beyond its staffing levels. Now one day, the ice cream shop announces a new flavor. This flavor is very popular amongst its clientele, who have been calling for its introduction for a long time. Now, this ice cream shop had established a trend with the manner in which is announces flavors. Every flavor but one (which could not be offered quite yet because they needed a soft-serve machine) was offered in the same order in which it was announced. For the one flavor that was the exception, the employees told the customers very promptly, thus preventing disappointment from becoming anger.

Seeing this trend, an intrepid customer wrote on the ice cream shop's whiteboard that this new announced flavor would be coming on a certain date. There was much rejoicing! Many simply could not wait for this flavor. The weeks went by and the announcement stayed on the ice cream shop's official white board. The other customers, seeing the announcement, took it to be an official date as it was never altered by the staff.

Imagine the surprise and disappointment when a completely different flavor was offered instead and the customers were told that they would have to wait another 4 months to get their favorite! There were much confusion, many tears, and picket lines outside the ice-cream shop, even though the new flavor was actually pretty damn good itself. Why did this happen? The employees saw the announcement daily, and not a one changed it. Were they too busy to just walk to the other side and erase it? Were they not actually informed of the decisions made by their superiors and thus not responsible for the announcement remaining? This question remained in the head of a poor, confused little cherub named Jimmy.

"But why didn't they erase the white board?" asked little Jimmy to his mother. "Why did they get my hopes up?", his big, brown eyes welling with tears.
"Life's tough you little ********, deal with it", replied the battleaxe.

. . . to be continued.

Quite astute! Makes sense, although the "orion swap" does not matter to me as much as other issues, PGI could have easily posted that PGI had never actually said that the Orion was next and that it was just player conjecture. It may indeed be that PGI was too busy with other things to even notice until the discontent became so loud that it could not be ignored.

Edited by Ed Steele, 08 June 2013 - 06:03 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Of course, in this case, the white board has been changed *before* the new flavor is added. So, sure, they had their sign up for an upcoming flavor, and it was left there... Until about a week before the new flavor was to be added, and it was changed. Perhaps the originally expected flavor was delayed; problems in shipment perhaps? The owner of the shop was able to get a new, different flavor, so about a week before the expected new flavor introduction date the owner changed the sign.

Little Jimmy may have been disappointed - he loved strawberry ice cream - but being a well adjusted little boy he understands that these things happen. And even if not, even if Little Jimmy does react as above... He's a little boy. This is why we're objecting to this whole "debacle" - you're all acting like spoiled little children.




Seriously, people, can't you see that this isn't a Huge Failure Of Business Management? It's just a change of plans, they happen all the time in every business. We WERE given notice, too - with the Creative Director update. Can I buy a Quickdraw yet? No. Because we were given advance notice of the change.

We're not "white knighting", we're not standing up for everything PGI does. It's just a reality of game development and business that plans change. PGI hasn't screwed anyone - it's not like they took preorder payments for an Orion then at the last minute give you a Quickdraw for your money.

Be disappointed? Sure. Fair enough. But show a little maturity, and handle your disappointment like an adult.

[Rasako]

Wintersdark, on 08 June 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Of course, in this case, the white board has been changed *before* the new flavor is added. So, sure, they had their sign up for an upcoming flavor, and it was left there... Until about a week before the new flavor was to be added, and it was changed. Perhaps the originally expected flavor was delayed; problems in shipment perhaps? The owner of the shop was able to get a new, different flavor, so about a week before the expected new flavor introduction date the owner changed the sign.

Little Jimmy may have been disappointed - he loved strawberry ice cream - but being a well adjusted little boy he understands that these things happen. And even if not, even if Little Jimmy does react as above... He's a little boy. This is why we're objecting to this whole "debacle" - you're all acting like spoiled little children.




Seriously, people, can't you see that this isn't a Huge Failure Of Business Management? It's just a change of plans, they happen all the time in every business. We WERE given notice, too - with the Creative Director update. Can I buy a Quickdraw yet? No. Because we were given advance notice of the change.

We're not "white knighting", we're not standing up for everything PGI does. It's just a reality of game development and business that plans change. PGI hasn't screwed anyone - it's not like they took preorder payments for an Orion then at the last minute give you a Quickdraw for your money.

Be disappointed? Sure. Fair enough. But show a little maturity, and handle your disappointment like an adult.

no, we were not given prior notice, the monthly update is when the orion should have been announced, if there were changes to that lineup the community should have been notified earlier, like what happened with the flea. Also, this is a MAJOR failure of business management, and it is nowhere NEAR the first time this has happened either