1217 replies to this topic

[ROJ]

Mystere, on 22 June 2013 - 06:54 PM, said:

These very same people who cry out for nerfs instead of adapting to the situation at hand will be the first ones to go when the inevitable zombie apocalypse comes upon us.

At times I think the devs should balance the game according to their intuition rather than listening to anybody as people will always complain..

Edited by ROJ, 23 June 2013 - 06:35 AM.

[DeaconW]

Ilithi Dragon, on 22 June 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

So, clearly, the classic poptart, the stereotypical Heavy Metal pay-to-win poptart build, is not significantly hampered by screen shake. It is somewhat hindered under certain conditions, but with some practice and situational awareness, a half-decent pilot can largely avoid or minimize those situations.

Dude, you were the only poptarting HGH in 11 matches. Clearly this nerf is working great per your own data! Thx for proving the opposite of what you intended...

Quote

I did not see many mechs equipped with JJs, and the few mechs I did see equipped with them rarely used them.

1. 11 is a small sample size.
2. You didn't see everyone and whether or not they used JJ's.
3. 1-2 JJ mechs a match is about right if balance is working, IMO.

[Ilithi Dragon]

DeaconW, on 23 June 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Dude, you were the only poptarting HGH in 11 matches. Clearly this nerf is working great per your own data! Thx for proving the opposite of what you intended...

How does a lack of highlander poptarts prove anything? There were a lack of mechs using JumpJets in general. The nerf does not specifically affect poptarts, it affects ALL JJ mechs, that was what I was trying to demonstrate.

Furthermore, I demonstrated that I was not significantly hindered by screen shake - I could still fight quite effectively as a poptart despite it. It was not pleasant, because it was disorienting and physically discomforting after a while, but I could still poptart almost as effectively as I could before screen shake.

The lack of classic poptarts, and all JJ mechs in general, is not because screen shake significantly hinders poptarting, it's because IT IS PHYSICALLY DISCOMFORTING AND UNENJOYABLE. I don't LIKE hitting my jumpjets, because it causes IRL disorientation and physical discomfort, and I'm in the lucky group who are not bothered by motion sickness and other problems. There are a great many people who ARE bothered by that, as evidenced by all the complaints from them in this thread, and that is one of the biggest reasons why people aren't using JJs.

That is not a 'nerf.' A nerf would be reducing the in-game effectiveness of JJs, reducing jump height, increasing the time it takes to reach peak jump height, etc. THAT is a nerf. Screen shake does not nerf JJs, screen shake makes a core game mechanic physically discomforting. That is not nerfing the game, that is frakking it up.

DeaconW, on 23 June 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

1. 11 is a small sample size.
2. You didn't see everyone and whether or not they used JJ's.
3. 1-2 JJ mechs a match is about right if balance is working, IMO.

1. And if this were the definitive be-all, end-all study to prove the ineffectiveness of screen shake, that would be a valid point. My 11 matches are a single data point, providing more precise data, to coincide with the comments others have made, and are intended to prove a point and substantiate previous statements, not be the sum and total of all evidence against the viability of screen shake.

2. I did not see all mechs 100% of the entire match, no, but I know most of the chassis variants, and I know which ones do and do not have JJs, and I was keeping an eye out for any other mechs using JJs. I also bounced around all my teammates cockpits, checking for JJs and JJ use. I am 95% certain that I did not miss any JJ use.

3. There are 81 variants of all chassis in the game, 25 of which can equip JJs. That's about 31% of all available mech chassis. Based on that figure, you should see an average of about 5 mechs per match equipped with JJs. Even allowing for the few odd builds that take a JJ-capable chassis and strip the JJs off, you should still see an average of at least 4 mechs per match equipped with JJs. This is very clearly NOT the case. In my sample of 11 matches, there was an average of 1.91 mechs with JJs per match. If you go by JJ use, that figure is barely above 1.0, and only because I was using my JJs all the time.


DeaconW, let me ask you, would you be open to the removal of screen shake if it were replaced with other methods that balanced out poptarts, and all direct-fire snipers in general?

[DeaconW]

Ilithi Dragon, on 23 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

How does a lack of highlander poptarts prove anything?

Because that was the primary target of the nerf. This is the part of your commentary I take issue with...you are basically saying the nerf isn't effective because you can poptart (and so can I BTW...poorly, I am experimenting with it in a QD now that there is a balance to the meta) but the dearth of poptart mechs simply proves you wrong in general. You may not like the way it is effective, but it is effective nonetheless.

Quote

DeaconW, let me ask you, would you be open to the removal of screen shake if it were replaced with other methods that balanced out poptarts, and all direct-fire snipers in general?

Sure...fix convergence and you don't need any of the other "fixes" PGI is adding. It is also unfortunate the lights are affected( although lights are still disproportionately powerful). But until they fix convergence, I am all for anything that keeps the poptart meta where it is right now...rare. For the record, I have never had a problem with regular direct-fire snipers.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

Ilithi Dragon, on 23 June 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

How does a lack of highlander poptarts prove anything? There were a lack of mechs using JumpJets in general.

Deacon approves of using Daisycutters to cut the daisies. He's a Stalker pilot, but you heard him. He uses jumpjets 'on occasion', but he doesn't think that it's a problem. And as long as it makes those cursed poptart toaster struedels go away, whatever it takes is a perfect solution. Even if it's slash and burn, he's doing just fine. But then again, the pilots who only use 1-2 JJs to make tiny direction changes wouldn't get burned. Neither would a non-JJ 4+PPC Assult mech.

There are no mysteries here.


fix convergence is fine for me. give me my smooth ride. If you want to tag someone with energy and balistics and you have to compensate for the different speeds, that makes real sense. We did that before poptart meta went gold anyway. I don't fear poptart meta, but make sense if you're going to affect it to reduce it.

"it's unfortunate" hahaha

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 24 June 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[Skyraxx]

I'm glad the poptarts are gone, however now it seems like there's not enough appeal to using jump jets. They don't really offer enough of a tactical advantage to be worth the tonnage.

I'd like to see the weight of jump jets reduced to make them more palatable to players. Cut their weight on order of 75% or so.

[Zeus X]

Skyraxx, on 24 June 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

I'm glad the poptarts are gone, however now it seems like there's not enough appeal to using jump jets. They don't really offer enough of a tactical advantage to be worth the tonnage.

I'd like to see the weight of jump jets reduced to make them more palatable to players. Cut their weight on order of 75% or so.

Poptarts might be gone, but this has led to PPC stalkers and every damn mech with a PPC.

The shake has only caused more problems, be it physical illness and players boating PPC's. Nothing has changed, instead of flying PPC's we now have land based stalker boats running 4 to 6 PPC's.

Right now PGI can't seem to do anything right, be it weapon balance, minimizing boating, or really anything imo.

PGI is moving in the wrong direction.

[Karl Streiger]

DCM Zeus, on 24 June 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Poptarts might be gone, but this has led to PPC stalkers and every damn mech with a PPC.

Well at least the PPC meta was never gone. The pop tarting PPC "Sniper" was just an climax.... but instead of going after problem:
firing more PPC as your mech should handle (for me its the main problem - 2 ER-PPC = 15DHS or your mech goes toast soon) without fear of penalty is the root of this whole problem.

randomly occuring AC 2, SRM or LRM or BJ /QKD meta help to veil that problem - but is still there - duno since January or was it February

[Serapth]

Karl Streiger, on 24 June 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Well at least the PPC meta was never gone. The pop tarting PPC "Sniper" was just an climax.... but instead of going after problem:
firing more PPC as your mech should handle (for me its the main problem - 2 ER-PPC = 15DHS or your mech goes toast soon) without fear of penalty is the root of this whole problem.

randomly occuring AC 2, SRM or LRM or BJ /QKD meta help to veil that problem - but is still there - duno since January or was it February

Easy fix to boating... and poptarts... if you overheat by say... > 110%, put a random chance to explode in. Make the chance to explode increase incrementally as their heat passes 110%.

In this scenario, if a mech is at 90% heat and fires 6xPPCs, its virtually guaranteed to explode. If a mech is at 90% and fires a PPC pushing it to say, 105%, its completely safe. Yes, this "nerf" would effect 8xML Hunchbacks too, but I dont really think thats a bad thing. Boating in general needs to be curtailed...

Plus the PPC should go back to its old or near it's old heat curve.

This combo would fix the poptart. Instead PGI are gut Jump jets from the game... nice work there PGI.

[KingCobra]

I'm not a real fan of poptarts I mean pop snipers but the jump jet shake is really stupid.

[Milt]

jj used to be fun to use, now they are not. this is a game, playing this game should be fun. balancing by making something unenjoyable is counterproductive regardless if you get the results you want. there has got to be a better way to balance poptarting.

[KingCobra]

Milt, on 24 June 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

jj used to be fun to use, now they are not. this is a game, playing this game should be fun. balancing by making something unenjoyable is counterproductive regardless if you get the results you want. there has got to be a better way to balance poptarting.

There was in past games the speed of the weapons was slower and the mechs were 10x more maneuverable so players could get to cover faster not just plod along like hay wagons on the trail and get hit. Plus with the mechs being more maneuverable and a bit faster they could get to the snipers positions faster and take them out. Thats what mediums did hunt pop snipers and support the group in other tactical game play. OW I made a funny MWO has no tactical game play or meta hahahha just a boring grind.

[Evilwallofdeath]

I really like the shake, feels immersive.

[Grendel408]

Milt, on 24 June 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

jj used to be fun to use, now they are not. this is a game, playing this game should be fun. balancing by making something unenjoyable is counterproductive regardless if you get the results you want. there has got to be a better way to balance poptarting.

JJs are supposed to lift a 20-90+ 'Mech into the air to allow for greater mobility... poptarting started back in MW2 days... yeah it was fun for those being poptarts, but there's a counter to every tactic. So... given they added the shake, which adds realism to the game... this makes it no fun? When an rocket or space shuttle is launched into the space... does it not shake? Think about it... the Devs want to add some realism, we got a piece of it... now if only I could walk about stompy through trees and hearing them splinter apart like the older MW games... that'd be cool

Edited by Grendel408, 24 June 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[Kunae]

Grendel408, on 24 June 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

the Devs want to add some realism, we got a piece of it...

No, the "Devs" wanted to provide a knee-jerk reaction to quiet the QQ'rs about pop-tarts, without regard to the collateral damage.

[cmdr_scotty]

the shake is somewhat good, but implimented in the wrong way.

Doesn't make sense that the reticle shakes, but the pilot view is solid as a rock.


If you're going to do shake and avoid motion sickness. make the pilot view shake, not just a single element of the hud shake.
Also reduce the intensity of the shake since it seems too jittery for what is actually happening and should taper off as the mech's verticle acceleration reaches it's peak speed that the jumpjets are able to handle.

[Ilithi Dragon]

So for all of you guys claiming screen shake adds "realism" to the game, I actually went and pulled up a video of the last space shuttle launch. Let's take a look-see, shall we? This is STS-135, with the shuttle Atlantis.




There is a notable shake right when the engines really kick in and the clamps are released, but other than that it's a pretty smooth ride. They bump a little bit, but it's insignificant, less than the shaking you see in your mech cockpit when you're running, and most of that minor shake is from turbulence while moving through the air while accelerating at nearly 2 gs. Even later, (~1:35 - 1:45), when the engines throttle them up to 3 gs, the shake is barely there. I get almost that much shake driving in the township road I live on on my way home from work.

So, no, it is not "realistic" at all for there to be any significant screen shake, no more than you get when your mech is walking or running around the map, especially since you wouldn't get any of the atmospheric turbulence that the shuttles got.


Screen shake does not add realism to the game. Screen shake BREAKS JJs, a core game mechanic, in an attempt to correct an issue of weapons imbalance.

Poptarting is NOT the underlying problem. ALL sniper builds are the problem, because the sniper weapons, the PPCs and the Gauss, are over-powered. They travel too fast, they cycle too fast, and the PPC generates too little heat. This makes them far too effective in general, and far to effective against the fast Lights and Mediums that are supposed to be their direct counters in particular.

Furthermore, the Lights and Mediums, especially the Mediums, are UNDERPOWERED. SRMs need to be boosted back to what they were before PGI started messing around with missile damage, and the missile spread needs to be reduced. The LBX-AC/10 and probably the AC/10 need to be reduced in weight by a ton (and probably two for the LBX-AC/10), to make them more viable for mounting on Medium mechs, and to make them more worth the weight of the weapon.

THOSE are the core issues that need to be addressed, THOSE are the core reasons why poptarts and snipers in general where overpowered. NOT because there is something inherently unbalanced in poptarts, rather because the weapons that all snipers used are overpowered, and the weapons that make their direct counters viable in general combat, and effective overall, are underpowered.

Correct those issues, and poptarts and all snipers will no longer be a problem. All fire support mechs would still eat the big, slow, heavy brawlers for breakfast, as they should, as that is their role as the direct counter to the big, slow, heavy brawlers, but they would be less effective against the faster mechs, and the faster mechs would better be able to eat them for breakfast, as they should.

Additional ways to reduce the effectiveness of snipers, and to help keep fast mechs from becoming too OP, is to add mech velocity to weapon velocity, so that all your projectile weapons, missiles, ballistics and PPCs, continue traveling in the direction that your mech was traveling in, at the speed it was traveling, in addition to their own velocity, requiring mechs to lead targets to compensate for their own movement as well as their target's movement. This will most significantly impact snipers, but it will also impact Lights and fast Mediums to a lesser degree.

Reducing the model size of Medium mechs to a more appropriate scale for their weight would also increase their survivability, by making them harder to hit.

[kesuga7]

Burpitup, on 05 June 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

so many times i would fly away from someone turn around mid air and fire. That is completely useless now also.

Are you telling me that in 3050 they can't come up with a jet engine that doesn't shake?

i dunno man even that seems far fetched even for BT

100+kph (Im assuming and same thing sort of with heavier Ton mechs) while running forward then twisting your torso midair while your jumpjets lift your 25 tons at that speed and with the force of the jumpjets , i wouldn't be able to aim very well

But yea jumpjets should effect lighter mechs a bit less or tuned more to weight and is probably in the works like another guy said

Your cross hairs shouldn't shake , your entire body including your NeUro-Helmet including its HUD should shake

Edited by kesuga7, 24 June 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

DeaconW, on 23 June 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Because that was the primary target of the nerf. This is the part of your commentary I take issue with...you are basically saying the nerf isn't effective because you can poptart (and so can I BTW...poorly, I am experimenting with it in a QD now that there is a balance to the meta) but the dearth of poptart mechs simply proves you wrong in general. You may not like the way it is effective, but it is effective nonetheless.

Well, no, the 'nerf' is not effective against it's intended target. I can still quite effectively poptart despite screen shake, and you, whom it sounds like are an admittedly inexperienced poptart, can still poptart semi-effectively despite screen shake. One of the other guys in my unit tried poptarting with screen shake for the first time last night (he was distracted by life, other games, and vacation), and he was still able to poptart quite effectively. Many others in this very thread have said that they are still able to poptart quite effectively despite screen shake.

So, clearly, screen shake did not significantly nerf poptarting. It can still be done quite effectively.

The reason why you don't see poptarts very often, is because screen shake makes ALL jumpjet mechs not only not fun to play anymore, but physically discomforting. It is physically discomforting, physically painful, for a great many people to use jump jets for any significant length of time.


The point that I am trying to make is that screen shake does NOTHING to curtail poptarts to any significant degree. It only APPEARS to curtail poptarting, because it curtails ALL JUMPJET MECHS. People aren't poptarting as much because poptarting isn't effective anymore, people aren't poptarting as much because it physically hurts to use jumpjets!!!!!! And even for those of us who are do not experience physical discomfort or serious physical discomfort from using JJs, screen shake makes the use of JJs on ANY mech with ANY build not fun.


That is NOT how you go about balancing a game. There is ZERO REASON to have screen shake. It is not realistic, it does not address the imbalance issues, and only serves to disrupt the function, utility, and funness of a core game mechanic.

There are two things that are going to happen in the near future that will cause the return of poptarts, and demonstrate that this whole thing was completely and utterly pointless and useless.

1. Poptarts like myself will get used to the screen shake. Many will be unable to return to the role because they are physically incapable of poptarting, but others will take up the role as they see poptarts returning to effectiveness.

2. PGI will tone down the effect of the screen shake (they were talking about that before they even implemented it), reducing the physical discomfort it causes to a manageable level, if not eliminating it entirely, at which point you will see poptarts return in full force because screen shake does not significantly hamper poptarting, and it will no longer cause severe physical discomfort, which is the only reason why poptarts went away in the first place.

DeaconW, on 23 June 2013 - 07:16 PM, said:

Sure...fix convergence and you don't need any of the other "fixes" PGI is adding. It is also unfortunate the lights are affected( although lights are still disproportionately powerful). But until they fix convergence, I am all for anything that keeps the poptart meta where it is right now...rare. For the record, I have never had a problem with regular direct-fire snipers.

I do not understand how weapon convergence could even be an issue at all. It is not a matter of weapon convergence, it is a matter of all sniper weapons being overpowered. Having builds that can deliver high damage alpha strikes to a precise location is not the problem. The problem is that the weapons that do that are too effective and need to be nerfed, and the weapons that the mechs that counter those builds use are too ineffective and need to be buffed.

I also do not understand how you could not have a problem with ground-bound direct-fire snipers. Have you not noticed the plethora of PPC sniper builds that tend to dominate the battlefield? It is not uncommon at all for me to see two or three PPC Stalker builds, or two or thee or four or five PPC boats in multiple chassis. MWO right now is still just as much PPCWarrior Online as it was before screen shake was introduced.

Edited by Ilithi Dragon, 24 June 2013 - 01:32 PM.

[Daneel Hazen]

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