1217 replies to this topic

[Ilithi Dragon]

Also, DeaconW, you think Lights are overpowered? Seriously? Seriously?!

Lights are not overpowered, they are underpowered! Not as much as Mediums, but they are still underpowered. The only time I ever have any real problem dealing with Lights is when I'm in a poptart or sniper build, and even then they're not that much of a problem. Hell, even my signature Dragon build, that I've been running since I got into Closed Beta last July, which is inherently poor at engaging Lights by its very design, doesn't have much problem dealing with Lights.

[Grendel408]

Ilithi Dragon, on 24 June 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

The reason why you don't see poptarts very often, is because screen shake makes ALL jumpjet mechs not only not fun to play anymore, but physically discomforting. It is physically discomforting, physically painful, for a great many people to use jump jets for any significant length of time.

I'd of never thought using JJs in a game would be physically painful for the user... or disorienting by slight chance. Maybe folks need to take their motion sickness meds before playing MWO LOL!

I use my JJs all the time in my Jenner, jumping, twisting for mid-air shots, etc... no physical pain or discomfort here... just the occasional minor damage from landing roughly when my JJs juice ran out before I could land softly in some cases.

[FL4sH]

What is the difference between these two maneuvers...

1) Horizontal cover / fire. Using an object to hide behind and then exposing the mech from either left or right of the object to fire on a target.

2) Vertical cover / fire (Jump jets required) aka "poptarting". Using an object to hide behind and then exposing the mech from jumping above the object to fire on a target.


Why remove vertical cover / fire and limit the game to only horizontal cover / fire? Both are equally effective if performed correctly by a skilled mech pilot. I don't understand all the hate towards the vertical cover / fire other than it causing another dimension of game play.


I personally prefer the challenge of facing an enemy both horizontally and vertically. I want to look up, down, left and right.... not just left to right.

Keep all dimensions of game play please.

^^What this guy said^^

So we should nerf the ability to side-tart to yeh?

[Ilithi Dragon]

@Grendel408: Congrats, you're one of the few players who apparently experience zero physical effects from the screen shake. There are a large number of players who experience motion sickness, headaches, dizziness, nausea, even vomitting, because of the screen shake. I am largely unaffected myself, but the rapid and extensive shaking of everything on the screen causes my eyes to lose focus and rapidly try to refocus on the screen as it moves about. The end result is that I involuntarily defocus on the entire screen, and if I use JJs for a prolonged period while wearing my contacts, I can actually feel them shifting on my eyes.

FL4sH, on 24 June 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

So we should nerf the ability to side-tart to yeh?

This made me lawl for real, not just the extra-heavy breathing one usually does when lolling on the internets.

[DeaconW]

Ilithi Dragon, on 24 June 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

So, clearly, screen shake did not significantly nerf poptarting. It can still be done quite effectively.

You know, you can keep saying it over and over again, doesn't change thefact that the behavior has mostly disappeared from the game.

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The reason why you don't see poptarts very often, is because screen shake makes ALL jumpjet mechs not only not fun to play anymore, but physically discomforting. It is physically discomforting, physically painful, for a great many people to use jump jets for any significant length of time.

And if that is what it takes to keep the poptart meta gone and there is no other way to do it...then i support it.

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The point that I am trying to make is that screen shake does NOTHING to curtail poptarts to any significant degree.

Sigh...YOUR OWN EXPERIMENT DATA SHOWS THAT POPTARTING IS ESSENTIALLY GONE FROM THE GAME. Not sure how much more "significant" the degree can get.

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It only APPEARS to curtail poptarting, because it curtails ALL JUMPJET MECHS. People aren't poptarting as much because poptarting isn't effective anymore, people aren't poptarting as much because it physically hurts to use jumpjets!!!!!! And even for those of us who are do not experience physical discomfort or serious physical discomfort from using JJs, screen shake makes the use of JJs on ANY mech with ANY build not fun.

1. I still see JJ mechs in game.
2. I can still use JJ mechs in game fine.
3. I (and a lot of others) are still having fun in JJ mechs.

1-3 make your argument as stated, invalid.

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1. Poptarts like myself will get used to the screen shake. Many will be unable to return to the role because they are physically incapable of poptarting, but others will take up the role as they see poptarts returning to effectiveness.

2. PGI will tone down the effect of the screen shake (they were talking about that before they even implemented it), reducing the physical discomfort it causes to a manageable level, if not eliminating it entirely, at which point you will see poptarts return in full force because screen shake does not significantly hamper poptarting, and it will no longer cause severe physical discomfort, which is the only reason why poptarts went away in the first place.

Guess we'll have to wait and see....<gets popcorn>

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Having builds that can deliver high damage alpha strikes to a precise location is not the problem.

Um....let's just say I couldn't disagree more.

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I also do not understand how you could not have a problem with ground-bound direct-fire snipers. Have you not noticed the plethora of PPC sniper builds that tend to dominate the battlefield? It is not uncommon at all for me to see two or three PPC Stalker builds, or two or thee or four or five PPC boats in multiple chassis. MWO right now is still just as much PPCWarrior Online as it was before screen shake was introduced.

Except there are few poptarts. Snipers are a completely valid build. Convergence is what is making them so effective.

Grendel408, on 24 June 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

I'd of never thought using JJs in a game would be physically painful for the user... or disorienting by slight chance. Maybe folks need to take their motion sickness meds before playing MWO LOL!

Or possibly there are a significant number of former poptarters who are jumping on the bandwagon of a very small minority of players who are actually getting sick to try and get their meta back...

FL4sH, on 24 June 2013 - 03:58 PM, said:

What is the difference between these two maneuvers...

1) Horizontal cover / fire. Using an object to hide behind and then exposing the mech from either left or right of the object to fire on a target.

2) Vertical cover / fire (Jump jets required) aka "poptarting". Using an object to hide behind and then exposing the mech from jumping above the object to fire on a target.

You want a serious answer to this? OK.

1. Speed of the manuever, thereby reducing risk to the one that takes less time.
2. Ability of the opponent to have a chance to return fire.

Just in case the fact that SO MANY people were "poptarting" vice "side-tarting" wasn't evidence enough for you.

[Grendel408]

Ilithi Dragon, on 24 June 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

@Grendel408: Congrats, you're one of the few players who apparently experience zero physical effects from the screen shake. There are a large number of players who experience motion sickness, headaches, dizziness, nausea, even vomitting, because of the screen shake. I am largely unaffected myself, but the rapid and extensive shaking of everything on the screen causes my eyes to lose focus and rapidly try to refocus on the screen as it moves about. The end result is that I involuntarily defocus on the entire screen, and if I use JJs for a prolonged period while wearing my contacts, I can actually feel them shifting on my eyes.

LOL! Okay... so that I can wrap my head around... folks who have prescription contacts, glasses, etc for vision problems. This would make gaming rather unpleasant given those are the only players who complain about the issue of the jump jets... much the same as someone walking into a theatre and watching an IMAX 3D movie... gonna give you a nasty headache and probably discourage you from watching another movie at such a venue (my gf can't watch IMAX 3D )...

So... best way for Devs to remedy this issue? Reduce shake effect, initial shake (on "lift-off") be stronger, and decrease as the thrust increases to no shake by the time it runs out of fuel... this still leaves the "less skilled" from pop-tarting... but like many folks said already, you can still do it, just less effective. I personally, believe the shake effect should stay, but should have the Devs accomodate for user disturbance much as they are doing for color coding with folks who are color blind.

Now... not to rant, but developing a game, or any piece of software is tricky business. You've got to develop something that's going to sell (in this case, MCs), it's got to retain quality, promote user-friendly interface, and most of all have a team dedicated to making sure it's client base remains happy (even if this means rolling out consectutive patches until problems are gone)... someone's always gonna have a problem... but to get it so the 90%+ users out there have that good experience is key... after all... this is still "Beta"

Edited by Grendel408, 24 June 2013 - 05:54 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

DeaconW, on 24 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

You know, you can keep saying it over and over again, doesn't change thefact that the behavior has mostly disappeared from the game.

I keep saying it over and over again because screen shake was SPECIFICALLY introduced to target poptarts, yet the very effect that was supposed to target poptarts does not significantly hinder poptarts. It reduces the number of poptarts not by making POPTARTING more difficult, but by making ALL JUMPJETTING more difficult, less fun, and often physically uncomfortable.

Screen shake does not nerf POPTARTING, screen shake nerfs ALL JUMPJETTING. THAT is the point I have been trying to make.

DeaconW, on 24 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

And if that is what it takes to keep the poptart meta gone and there is no other way to do it...then i support it.

And this is why I have such a huge issue with screen shake. It damages a core game mechanic to resolve an issue with poptart snipers (which are only half of the sniper problem), when there are much better ways of solving the problem, of directly addressing the underlying issue, WITHOUT damaging the core game mechanic.

I will ask you again, Deacon, if there were other solutions that more specifically targeted the underlying problems that caused problem with overpowered poptarts and overpowered snipers in general, that did not damage core game mechanics, and that did not hinder other build types and play styles, would you support the removal of screen shake in favor of that?

DeaconW, on 24 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Sigh...YOUR OWN EXPERIMENT DATA SHOWS THAT POPTARTING IS ESSENTIALLY GONE FROM THE GAME. Not sure how much more "significant" the degree can get.

Yes, poptarting is essentially gone from the game, but not because poptarting specifically is made more difficult. My data and the comments of others showed that screen shake does not make poptarting significantly more difficult. It just makes all jumpjetting drastically less fun. Again, that is my point. Screen shake does not nerf poptarting, it nerfs all JJs.

DeaconW, on 24 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

1. I still see JJ mechs in game.
2. I can still use JJ mechs in game fine.
3. I (and a lot of others) are still having fun in JJ mechs.

1-3 make your argument as stated, invalid.

1. The number of JJ mechs in game are less than half, if not as little as a quarter of what they should be, by number of JJ mechs vs non-JJ mechs

2. Many people are not physically bothered by screen shake, but many people ARE, to greater and lesser extent, and screen shake more drastically affects all other uses of JJs, while barely effecting poptart use of JJs (provided you are not significantly bothered by the screen shake itself)

3. Myself and many others are unable to have fun in our non-poptart JJ mechs because of screen shake.


1-3 for both you and me are personal experience and perspective and say nothing about the validity of my argument.

DeaconW, on 24 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Um....let's just say I couldn't disagree more.

Except there are few poptarts. Snipers are a completely valid build. Convergence is what is making them so effective.

I've been playing since last July, and sniper convergence has NOT been an issue. Being able to deal concentrated high-damage alphas to a single location is not an issue. We've been able to do it since I started playing the game. Many brawlers can do it, with only a handful of ultra-heavy sniper loadouts able to do more damage. Snipers did not become overpowered until they buffed Guass and especially PPCs, back before they introduced Host State Rewind, to compensate for the latency issues they were having before they could program HSR from scratch. They overbuffed them a little back then, and snipers started to become a little over-common, even after the flavor-of-the-week flood of snipers dwindled off, but it wasn't a significant problem until HSR was introduced.

THAT is when things became really problematic, because once HSR was introduced, and snipers could reliably hit where they shot at any range, the buffs to sniper weapons to compensate for HSR made them OP. The 6PPC Stalker before HSR was devastatingly dangerous, but still a very tricky mech to pilot, because the pilot had to be very careful about making sure that shot would hit, because if it didn't, they were in trouble. After HSR, the 6PPC Stalker doesn't have to worry about missing anywhere near as much, and so it doesn't have to be anywhere near as selective with its shots. The same goes for any sniper build. The decreased cycle time and heat generation for PPCs further exacerbates the issue.


If you put PPCs back to stock values for cycle time and heat generation, and the same with Gauss cycle time, and reduce their travel speed to what it was before the buff, you will see a major reduction in the effectiveness of all snipers, and this will only significantly affect snipers. The 6-PPC Stalker will have to be more careful with his aim, and will suffer greater punishment for firing all 6 PPCs (returning PPCs to stock heat values should make any 6PPC Stalker build overheat and shut down with an alpha strike, regardless of their heat state at the time of firing, for example). Drop PPC travel speed from 2000 back down to 1200, and all snipers will have a harder time hitting targets at range, especially fast-moving Lights and Mediums, which are WAAAAY too easy for snipers to hit at range right now.

DeaconW, on 24 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

Or possibly there are a significant number of former poptarters who are jumping on the bandwagon of a very small minority of players who are actually getting sick to try and get their meta back...

I don't have any problem stating that I'm a poptarter, and a JJ skirmisher, and that I want my meta back. I want it back balanced properly, such that the slow heavy brawlers fear me, and such that I fear the Lights and fast Mediums, but I sure as hell want it back. I want to run around in my Highlander or 3D and knock the face off an Atlas or a Stalker, and then turn around and run away screaming like a little girl because a Jenner or a Raven or a Trebuchet or a Centurion came over to pick on me.

I want to be able to run my Trebuchet-7M skirmisher, with its twin PPCs and tripple Streaks again, running around at 100 kph, dancing between long and point-blank range, with little more than my jumpjets, my piloting skill, and good 'ol Jack **** for armor.

I want to be able to dance with my JJs, and screen shake does not allow me to do that. It allows me to poptart just fine, but it replaces my dancing shoes with misaligned rocket boots. I hate that, that's part of why I'm so passionate about this.

The other part is that it is completely unnecessary, there are better ways to counter poptarts and snipers than screen shake, far better ways, and it punishes a whole swath of mech builds with a carpet bomb 'nerf' just to hit one specific build type.

DeaconW, on 24 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

You want a serious answer to this? OK.

1. Speed of the manuever, thereby reducing risk to the one that takes less time.
2. Ability of the opponent to have a chance to return fire.

Just in case the fact that SO MANY people were "poptarting" vice "side-tarting" wasn't evidence enough for you.

A hill-humping Stalker exposes less, and can be exposed for just as little time, as a poptart if the pilot knows what he's doing.

And I saw just as many PPC Stalkers as I did poptarts.

Grendel408, on 24 June 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

LOL! Okay... so that I can wrap my head around... folks who have prescription contacts, glasses, etc for vision problems. This would make gaming rather unpleasant given those are the only players who complain about the issue of the jump jets... much the same as someone walking into a theatre and watching an IMAX 3D movie... gonna give you a nasty headache and probably discourage you from watching another movie at such a venue (my gf can't watch IMAX 3D )...

Dude, I noted that even though I am not significantly bothered by it, the screen shake is so hard I can feel my contacts shifting on my eyes. I did NOT say that that is the primary cause of discomfort for most people. That is the discomfort that I, me, personally, have experienced. Others have experienced much, much worse.

Grendel408, on 24 June 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

So... best way for Devs to remedy this issue? Reduce shake effect, initial shake (on "lift-off") be stronger, and decrease as the thrust increases to no shake by the time it runs out of fuel... this still leaves the "less skilled" from pop-tarting... but like many folks said already, you can still do it, just less effective. I personally, believe the shake effect should stay, but should have the Devs accomodate for user disturbance much as they are doing for color coding with folks who are color blind.

Grendel, I'll ask you the same question I asked Deacon, if there were another way to balance out poptart snipers that specifically targeted poptart snipers, without impacting other build types, would you do away with screen shake in favor of that other way?

Grendel408, on 24 June 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Now... not to rant, but developing a game, or any piece of software is tricky business. You've got to develop something that's going to sell (in this case, MCs), it's got to retain quality, promote user-friendly interface, and most of all have a team dedicated to making sure it's client base remains happy (even if this means rolling out consectutive patches until problems are gone)... someone's always gonna have a problem... but to get it so the 90%+ users out there have that good experience is key... after all... this is still "Beta"

Yeah, and I'm giving my Beta feedback. Screen shake is not the best way to balance poptarts, there are much better ways to do it, that don't tramp on any other build types to accomplish it.

And what you said there can just as easily be applied to the people who QQ'd for screen shake to be put in in the first place.



Look, what I'm trying to say is that there are other, better ways to deal with poptarts, that don't involve carpet bombing all JJ mechs to do it.

[Mystere]

Grendel408, on 24 June 2013 - 11:54 AM, said:

JJs are supposed to lift a 20-90+ 'Mech into the air to allow for greater mobility... poptarting started back in MW2 days... yeah it was fun for those being poptarts, but there's a counter to every tactic. So... given they added the shake, which adds realism to the game... this makes it no fun? When an rocket or space shuttle is launched into the space... does it not shake? Think about it... the Devs want to add some realism, we got a piece of it... now if only I could walk about stompy through trees and hearing them splinter apart like the older MW games... that'd be cool

You're thinking rocket, I'm thinking jet pack. Do jet packs shake?

[Catamount]

DeaconW appears to basically be presenting a false dichotomy here. He's basically suggesting that either screen shake does nothing about poptarts, or it must be the end-all, be-all optimal solution. At least, that's the only thing I can infer from his repeated assertion that "[hey, poptarts are technically in some way affected, therefore this was an awesome change, and no one should complain about it, because if it wasn't awesome, clearly poptarts wouldn't be affected]". Again, that's a false dichotomy. It's possible to affect poptarts without going about that balance change in the best way possible.

Just because screen shake technically affects the behavior and handling of poptarts doesn't mean it's the most ideal solution for dealing with the problem of them, and since it appears to affect poptarts less than other mechs, meaning the collateral damage from this fix is more significant than the fix itself, and since high-alpha stationary poptarts themselves are still just as useable as they were before (something DW's tangent about their numbers doesn't change), I'd say the fix is far from the idea approach to fixing the problem.


In short, Ilithi is correct. This fix hits everything other than the intended target. Someone can be just as OP with poptarts are before, and the fact that people are choosing to eschew JJ usage doesn't change the fact that the poptarts themselves are demonstrably overpowered. To conflate usage with capability is a red herring intended to dance around Ilithi's point. This fix did only the most mediocre job of addressing the issue of unbalanced high-alpha stationary poptarts, while causing mass collateral damage to general balance. This fix was tantamount to seeing an inner city bank robbery and dropping a fuel air bomb on everyone to fix the problem. Yes, the robbers are gone, but you've also incinerated every dollar bill within several city blocks, including what they were taking, anyways, and probably killed a few thousand people in the process, not exactly an effective pin-point solution, and one that didn't really solve your problem in the first place.

Exactly how does it qualify as "awesome"?

Edited by Catamount, 25 June 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[Event Horizon]

What was so OP about poptarting anyways? I never had a match that I said "Dang that poptart really made the difference" or "Dang if not for those poptarts the game would have been a lot different". Take it I am just a lonewolf, so maybe in those big premade games entire teams were all poptarting at the same time or something? Really what is so significant about poptarting in the first place, so significant that they had to ruin all jumpjets in an attempt to just nerf it a bit? I am just waiting to play again without feeling sick, since jumpjets are what brought me to MWO and almost all my mechs use them.

[Catamount]

Eugenics, on 24 June 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

What was so OP about poptarting anyways? I never had a match that I said "Dang that poptart really made the difference" or "Dang if not for those poptarts the game would have been a lot different". Take it I am just a lonewolf, so maybe in those big premade games entire teams were all poptarting at the same time or something? Really what is so significant about poptarting in the first place, so significant that they had to ruin all jumpjets in an attempt to just nerf it a bit? I am just waiting to play again without feeling sick, since jumpjets are what brought me to MWO and almost all my mechs use them.

My thought is that poptarts were never OP; the problem is that the counter to them was nerfed, so then they became a game mechanic without a counter-balance. So unbalanced and uncountered, yes, but not overpowered.

The ideal solution was to fix their counter: fast brawlers. Get up in the face of a poptart that can't fire its weapons rapidly without overheating, and you have a huge advantage on them. The problem is that the mechs designed to do this are underpowered and seldom used. SRMs are totally underpowered unless you boat ungodly numbers of them, and general ballistics (except AC20s and gauss) are so heavy that they're underpowered compared to other weapons that do the same job better, which then also happen to often be sniper weapons. In other words, the weapons and platforms that are supposed to counter slow high-alpha poptarts are underpowered. If they had just rebalanced brawlers, it would have killed two birds with one stone: solve the poptart issue and get brawlers, especially fast brawlers, functional again. Instead, they gave us a fix that barely touches stationary poptarts, savagely breaks every other JJ mech, and still doesn't address the fast brawler deficiency.

We're still playing Fire-Support-Warrior Online

I don't think I could have done a worse job of fixing this if I tried. Now that's fine; the PGI staff tried something they thought would work, and it didn't end up working all that well. Now I think they need to try something else to address the problem.

Edited by Catamount, 24 June 2013 - 07:59 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Well, the PPC and Gauss are overpowered, but that's because the buff PGI gave them to compensate for latency issues before HSR has not been removed since the introduction of HSR. PPCs and Gauss need to have their travel speeds reduced, and their cycle times increased, and PPCs need to have their heat generation increased back to stock tabletop levels. Do that, and buff SRMs and reduce the weight of LBX-AC/10 and AC/10, and you'll see a balancing of all fire support mechs.

[Event Horizon]

Quote

Sable: Jumpjet shake was a big step in the right direction. The shake seems a bit violent and disorienting and i'm sure it will be fine tuned in the future. Something just didn't seem fluid with the reticle shaking though and i came to the conclusion that it was because the rest of the HUD doesn't shake along with it making the reticle by itself seem awkward. Any plans to make the rest of the HUD shake to create a more fluid feeling?
A: Probably not, however we are tuning the shake amount to make it a little easier on the eyes.

This loaded/bias question/answer was posted in the Ask The Devs part of the forums.

[Grendel408]

Ilithi Dragon, on 24 June 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

Grendel, I'll ask you the same question I asked Deacon, if there were another way to balance out poptart snipers that specifically targeted poptart snipers, without impacting other build types, would you do away with screen shake in favor of that other way?

Currently in the game, no. The Devs are working to implement the heat penalty, but that still won't stop your dual PPC/Gauss combos so favored by poptarts given the time jumping to fire, to landing and doing it again you'd most likely fall outside that penalty and we won't be viewing any poptarting Stalkers with 6 PPCs to abuse the heat penalty LOL!

What I think needs to be done is to address the Jump Jet shake effect and fine tune that much like other systems that have been put into place, but not like something you can turn off like motion blur... I have a nice system and that made me kinda sick lol. I would say start with reducing the amount of shaking, as it was stated after my loose example of a rocket or the space shuttle lol Personally, it doesn't bother me as I said... but it shouldn't be "smooth sailing" either, reduce the shake, try by 30% and if that's still really bad on folks who deal with vision problems, reduce by an additional 20%... or have the initial lift-off rocky as hell and slowly taper off as you gain altitude and "stability"... Come to think of it... we can reintroduce knock-down again and watch folks who poptart have a 50% chance of falling on their ***'s when jump jetting...

And just so everyone knows it here I got 16 Mechs... I run only Lights, Mediums, and only own 3 Heavy Mechs... I've taken my Founder's Atlas out once LOL! So when you talk about the other weight classes being affected, I'm in that little community of folks who don't run around in Assaults with cheese builds. I'm the guy running around doing the grunt work lol

Edit Note: When I mentioned knock-down... this is a risk for all Mechs on the field... if you were in early on in the Closed Beta, you'll remember.

Edited by Grendel408, 24 June 2013 - 10:46 PM.

[DivineEvil]

We're speaking about Jump Jets Shake, thus the very introduction of it is, as a matter of raw fact, is the intention to nerf the Jump Jets. This is plainly ridiculous way to nerf anything else. It is also completely ******** decision from realism perspective; In order to generate as much shake as PGI implemented, the mech Jump-Jets expected to be using raw gunpowder fuel with derelict propulsion system. Even modern VTOL jets, weighting around 15 tons (thus more susceptible to impulse fluctuations trough the light-weight structure) not affected by shaking nearly as much.

Here we're talking about 40-200 ton Mechs of 3000+ era using plasma-driven propulsion, which is even now considered a very efficient, yet complex and expensive engine type, that comes from it's lift power being exceptionaly uniform. So, basically it isn't supposed to generate any disturbance but on the very lift-off moment, where Delta-V is the highest. Thus, any shaking beyond the first second of the jump sequence is ridiculous. And don't even mention your pathetic rocket science comparison, where, funny enough, you're never considered that it is an around 300 tons device, mostly consisting of fuel, which does nothing but burns all that fuel in 5 minutes, constantly blowing that fuel in the combustion chamber. They are extremely fuel-inefficient and susceptible to pogo oscillation, be it solid or liquid rocket boosters.

There's myriads of ways to affect the pop-tart, PPC or JJ issues. Making weapons taking internal damage when they overheat the mech, balancing heat levels, increasing the falling damage, stricting the weapon convergence, implementing PPC-resistant armor type, making JumpJets generate heat when active so that heavier mech heat-up more due to drag, messing up the aim for jumping mechs when they're being hit by ballistic or missiles mid-flight, anything! Any thing!

But implementing shaking so horrible is just outstandingly immature decision, which also not affect the actual poptarts that much, since instead of wobbly reticles, they can use weapon-group indicators around them to aim instead, since you're usually don't need to move horizontally while doing jump-shots. The faster you go overground, the more you're actually disrupted by that shake, since you need to aim dynamically during flight, and shake completely ruins your movement perception, thus Lights are suffering the most. It has significantly reduced the efficiency of Spiders, whose rely on their superior jumping ability entirely to survive, while using them on other mechs is simply inefficient and obviously limited to traversing unpathable obstacles. Which in order led people to almost entirely abandon the usage of Jump-Jets in favor for more firepower, speed or heat-efficiency.

In the end, every average player got to the point, where PPC has became the best weapon, since it has been countered by Jump-Jets the most in the first place. Using several Jump-Jet driven mechs to strike ppc snipers hard by unpredictably changing their position and messing up their aim and convergence, forcing them to build up dangerous heat, trying to repel the assault. Since JJ's became simply uncomfortable to use, snipers now can easily hit any mech of any weight class, since they only need to track targets in one direction - the direction target is moving. Horizontal dimension, that is so much easier to put on, considering the difference between twist/yaw speed and angular limits.

So, in the end, shakeing mechanic done nothing but made Jump-Jets harder to use on faster mechs, and made PPCs even better option among all other weapons. Now only 2xAC20 counters PPC boats just by being able to blow them faster than they would blow you. Every mech has Energy hard-points, and now we see all mechs sporting PPCs, aside for the people, who respect themselves enough not to abuse the developer's frequently flawed and incomplete judgement in their own favor.
Think about it.

[P e n u m b r a]

why the hell are people crying about keeping jump jet shake in when all people do now is take a stalker with more firepower walk over the hill and shoot for more damage than the highlander did anyway achieving pretty much the same thing? all that they have done here with this "fix" is made JJs useless tonnage removed a way to play the game that *shock* some people enjoyed and nerfed lights I have no problem with jump sniping, pop sniping, or brawling i think all 3 dynamics should be part of the game and legit ways to play. dont bring the TT accuracy into the argument because its a +2 accuracy penalty for moving and +3 for jets only one more? and yeah believe it or not it is harder to take a shot on the old jets than it is walking and taking it anyway so mute point. stalkers all ready countered highlander jumpers in the old state because of higher alpha better weapon hardpoint spread across the mech lower tonnage for drop decks and simpler mechanic to deliver the damage its just yeah jumping was more fun...

so whats next sort stalkers pin point alphas? remove JJ snipers remove land snipers game will turn into a brawl fest where higher rate of fire weapons used close in hitting a visually larger target will dominate? one way to play the game = boring hate me but being blatantly honest, its the scrub casual players of the game (the larger portion) crying about the next meta whatever it is, because they cannot handle the most efficient way to play the game. it will keep happening and if the devs cater to these players it will become watered down muck I have seen it before in other games. (WoW, mw4 for example)

they needed to buff brawlers a slight bit that is all another problem in balance is false positives as brawlers do need more teamwork to move in a pack / zombie horde this just does not happen in a pug game so long range is the strongest option to sit back behind the entire team use them as a meat shield and pick stragglers off.

buff internal hp so crit matters increase velocity of lbx to be crazy fast buff the damage on it slightly increase ammo per ton so you don't need to have to drive a bomb truck to be a brawler buff srm damage.

Edited by Le0yo, 25 June 2013 - 01:50 AM.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

DeaconW, on 24 June 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

2. Ability of the opponent to have a chance to return fire.

get out.



"mooooom! this mech is out of my weapons range! I don't even have a change to return fire!!!!"
"moooooom!! This mech has ECM and I can't get a lock and it keeps shooottin meeehhhh!! I caint even return fiyaaaahahh!!"
"mooooooooooom!!1!!13214#5#@ This MECH HAS LRM! This built in gameplay dynamic of long range indirect fire versus medium range ballistic or energy weapons is reducing my chance to return fire!!!!!"

You are ultimately complaining about the effective use of cover. Jump Jets allow people to fire and cover better and you don;t like that , in your slow as **** preferred 4+PPC Stalker. Otherwise known as a ******* side-tart sniper. You are the worst. And it's very apparent why you're against JJs. It's because your playstyle makes you their prime victim.
You're playing the wrong ******* game.

go back to Chromehounds

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 25 June 2013 - 03:13 AM.

[Catamount]

Grendel, why wouldn't you take an inherently superior way of fixing things over an inferior way of fixing things? Why is it so preferable to be married to this particular approach, and insist on trying to "tune" and "fix" such an inherently bad approach, instead of just implementing an inherently better way of fixing things in the first place?
When something's broken, you fix it. When the fix doesn't work, you don't roll a bunch of duck tape over the bad fix and hope it holds together. You find a better way to fix it. So again, why must this method of fixing things be the method of choice?

You know, I'm actually facing a very similar decision here myself, right now, and since I've been rolling with the analogies thus far, what the hell. I have an SKS with an aftermarket receiver cover to mount a red dot scope. The problem, ironically, is that the scope shakes. It rattles really badly when I fire it, badly enough to throw off the zero, and possibly even damage the scope. No two SKSs are made alike, so you always have to do some work to make parts fit. Usually receiver covers are a little big, so that you can file them down until they fit, but this one, quizzically, was too small, so there's a gap. where its front slots into the top of the receiver. I tried to Macgyver it by sticking a piece of sheet metal into the gap, but it didn't work.

So here's the decision I've been going over this morning, trying to fix it: I can take the approach you suggest for MWO, and I can insist on sticking with this receiver cover, this part, this fix that doesn't actually fit my problem, and I throw duck tape and optimism at it until maybe it kind of sort of works, but it's probably not going to work great. Or, I can do what I ought to do, throw away the mismatched fix, and buy another part so that I have a fix that actually fits my problem.

So you tell me: should I do away with my scope shake altogether for a better part, or just try to "reduce" and "tune" in hopes that maybe it'll stop causing crippling problem? (I know, I know, it's a stretch, but just go with it )


Edit: this accursed forum ate half my post the first time; looks like it finally worked

Edited by Catamount, 25 June 2013 - 07:16 AM.

[Darius Deadeye]

It took a bit of getting used to, but I'm actually fine with how jump jets currently work.

On my 3D and Jenners, I still use JJ's all the time for positioning and escaping - to great advantage.

That said, a little less shake woulnd't hurt.

[Kunae]

Darius Deadeye, on 25 June 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

It took a bit of getting used to, but I'm actually fine with how jump jets currently work.

On my 3D and Jenners, I still use JJ's all the time for positioning and escaping - to great advantage.

That said, a little less shake woulnd't hurt.

Just because someone doesn't play like you do, does not mean their preferred playstyle is "wrong". Just because you don't have a problem with a nerf, doesn't mean it should have been put in, in the first place.

This sweeping nerf to all JJ-capable mechs should never have been put in, and needs to be entirely removed. No tweaks. No "tuning". Removed.

Edited by Kunae, 25 June 2013 - 08:02 AM.