1217 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

DeaconW, on 05 June 2013 - 06:43 AM, said:

Um..except that there are very few of them now in matches(at least all the ones I was in last night save one...and we ROFLstomped that poptart-heavy team). This would be evidence contrary to your claim.

That's because just the use of them, for any purpose, is annoying and disorienting. If you can acclimate yourself to that part, the accuracy of pop-tarters is mostly unaffected, as they shoot when the JJ's are off anyways.

[StonedVet]

I just wanna say thank you PGI for this update to JJ's ... obviously a lot of people want to be able to jump from behind cover all day like they are playing CoD. The nerf is PERFECT ( I say this even though I own a HGN with JJ's)For those getting "sick" from the reticle shake I say this ... grow a stomach ... I used my HGN for hours yesterday and the shake did nothing but make me giggle a little ... The whining and complaining has gone way too far in this game and people know that the more they do, the more likely they will get their way (ie. 3rd person view being tested) Easy remedy for the OMG I feel sick from trying to poptart without success, Find another Mech you can enjoy and move along. Too many "children" going on about something that should have been implemented in the first place. If that doesn't soothe your tears then try MW4 I hear the poptarting there is fun. For the record im not slamming those who actually have an "issue" with motion sickness or whatever is causing this but seeing 50 different threads about OMG I feel sick is pushing it, I guarantee 1 out of those 20 making posts actually have any issue. Want a quick Fix to the nausea problem AND poptarting then maybe a solution would be to Deny the firing of weapons while using JJ's like TT.

Edited by Lowridah, 05 June 2013 - 07:02 AM.

[marlyy]

poeple posting "my gameplay is now broken" are sad. u just rely on jj. i try to compare it with some other sad things but my english is broken


i hate poptarts rly, but they are part of the game. i preferred more slots to jj or other tweak, but right now its just funny

and instead of just complaining u should enjoy other builds...

[Kunae]

Welcome to the new series of Jenners:

New Jenner-F
New Jenner-K
New Jenner-D (P2W, btw)

[Kaemon]

Lowridah, on 05 June 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

The nerf is PERFECT

Nerfs =/= perfection

marlyy, on 05 June 2013 - 06:58 AM, said:

instead of just complaining u should enjoy other builds...

You mean like the BlackJack? :/

[Gowan]

As somebody who gets motion sickness pretty easily, I have to say that I don't see what the fuss is about. I suppose if I was constantly trying to shoot from the air, trying to focus in that situation would almost definitely make me feel sick, but using JJs to maneuver is still easy and hasn't gotten me sick yet. So there's my two cents.

Also, I can't help but notice that the game is fun again!

[DeaconW]

Interesting...I just noticed that there are two camps emerging in the "need to fix it" side of the isle on this thread. One is adamant about removing the reticule shake but keeping the screen shake, the other is OK with the reticule shake but really desires the screen shake to be less. One would mitigate the motion-sickness AND make poptart sniping easier, one would simply mitigate the motion sickness. Hmmm....implications abound...

[Kacy Roush]

I honestly can't wait to see what jumpjets are like, myself, but if it's gotten rid of poptart sniper jerks who headcap me fifteen seconds into the game as I go and do my job of scouting the battlefield, I'm for it.

[Kunae]

DeaconW, on 05 June 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Interesting...I just noticed that there are two camps emerging in the "need to fix it" side of the isle on this thread. One is adamant about removing the reticule shake but keeping the screen shake, the other is OK with the reticule shake but really desires the screen shake to be less. One would mitigate the motion-sickness AND make poptart sniping easier, one would simply mitigate the motion sickness. Hmmm....implications abound...

I want it all removed. It's a stupid mechanic which had many, better, alternatives.

Guess that's a "third" camp.

Kacy Roush, on 05 June 2013 - 07:10 AM, said:

I honestly can't wait to see what jumpjets are like, myself, but if it's gotten rid of poptart sniper jerks who headcap me fifteen seconds into the game as I go and do my job of scouting the battlefield, I'm for it.

If they were "headcapping you 15 seconds into the game as you 'scout'".... you were doing it wrong.

Most likely you were standing still, which is just stupid, in a light mech.

Edit: And you'll still be getting "headcapped 15 seconds into the game as you 'scout", even without pop-tarters. It's your behavior, not theirs, which is the cause of your deaths.

Edited by Kunae, 05 June 2013 - 07:15 AM.

[Kacy Roush]

Kunae, it's also quite realistic. However, I'd also say that having more jets spread out should mitigate, to some degree, the shake, as should being a lighter 'Mech.

[Mawai]

Kunae, on 05 June 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

No.

Because this:


I've underlined the really really important part of the quote.

Sorry - the quoting system removed most of the relevant bits.

"Why we need to constantly invent brand new mechanics when adjusting the ones we already have would be enough? It only makes future balancing even harder by making they systems more complex."

Well the issue here is to adjust weapon fire to be less precise while jump jetting ... while not impacting other aspects of game play. What other game mechanics do you think could be changed that would affect this one aspect of game play only?

The suggestions made as alternatives (by Esplodin) were

"1) Convergence - drop it to zero when JJ active. I know it is instant, which is BROKEN. Fix the broken mechanic and lock weapons on current converged distance while in flight.
2) Heat - up the heat on PPCs. Hey, that would fix PPC boat stalkers too! Would also save engineering time on the "boat" heat penalty you are working on which will crap squarely on the medium chassis."


"Locking weapons on current converged distance while in flight" ... I think this is what the game currently does giving very precise fire. Perhaps convergence at infinity while jumping might work since the weapons would never be pinpoint accurate then. On the other hand that would mean that you could never hit with all the weapons at the same time - maybe that would be a fix but you would probably see a lot of complaints and it would completely remove the jump sniper capability instead of limiting it to after the jump jets shut down.

Adjusting heat is a separate mechanic that I believe will be done at some point but it isn't related to pop-tarting. Most poptarts are not seriuously impacted by heat constraints ... Highlanders typically only have 2 or 3 ppc and a gauss. Cataphracts are 2 gauss/ppc ... so are most catapults. Heat changes would affect the extreme ppc builds ... none of which can jump jet so it is a pointless fix when it comes to jump snipers specifically. It may be necessary for overall weapon balance and will likely be tuned in the coming months before release ... but it isn't a fix for jump snipers.


Anyway, the point is that screen and reticle shake is an option that reduces weapon accuracy while in flight while not affecting any other aspect of the game (unlike ECM which impacted many other aspects ... and is a completely different discussion). It also makes sense from a "realism argument" point of view and a table top point of view since there should be an additional hit modifier for fire when jumping. However, that said, I think the current version is a bit over the top and needs adjustment ... though it may be a fine line between effectiveness and comfort for the majority of players.

Edited by Mawai, 05 June 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Mawai]

Kunae, on 05 June 2013 - 06:55 AM, said:

That's because just the use of them, for any purpose, is annoying and disorienting. If you can acclimate yourself to that part, the accuracy of pop-tarters is mostly unaffected, as they shoot when the JJ's are off anyways.

I was experimenting with this in the Testing grounds ... there is now significantly less time to aim between the point when the JJs turn off and the mech falls. In this time, the player has to bring the reticle back on to the target and fire. Folks with aimbots will likely not be affected (though they will be easier to identify) but for most players the time between end of shake and loss of target during the jump are small enough that the efficiency of pop-tarting appeared significantly impacted.

In addition, in particular for the highlander, the torso aiming is so slow that unless you happen to be on the target when the JJs stop it is very difficult if not impossible to get the torso reticle onto the target in time to fire the ppcs. Arm aiming is much easier.

Edited by Mawai, 05 June 2013 - 07:32 AM.

[StonedVet]

Kaemon, on 05 June 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

Nerfs =/= perfection



You mean like the BlackJack? :/

Not saying its perfection, im stating the nerf was PERFECT for the circumstances. BIG difference.

[Kunae]

Mawai, on 05 June 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

<snip>

Pop-tarts only became an issue due to other changes/fixes/nerfs that PGI did. Namely, SRM damage redux/pattern-spread, PPC heat redux, and the 'arm lock' mechanism.

SRM damage/pattern nerf really destroyed the ability for brawlers to have a decisive punch. They are the natural predators of pop-tarters. My brawler DDC's alpha dropped from 75 to 57 with that. Barely stronger than a Highlander pop-tart's, with less pin-point.

PPC heat reduction allowed people to carry more ppc's, and fire them consistantly.

Arm-lock made it so pop-tarters could fuse their arm and torso high-damage alpha weapons into a pin-point accurate BFG.

Edit: My point being that this JJ nerf could have easily been avoided having a reason to exist. At times it almost feels like PGI is setting up "straw-men" or "fall guys" by doing things to drastically alter the meta to favor some behavior, to **** off the community at those who use it, to justify some bizzare nerf/addition, which has the stated purpose of "countering" the meta which they built in the first place.

Edited by Kunae, 05 June 2013 - 07:25 AM.

[IceSerpent]

DeaconW, on 05 June 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Interesting...I just noticed that there are two camps emerging in the "need to fix it" side of the isle on this thread. One is adamant about removing the reticule shake but keeping the screen shake, the other is OK with the reticule shake but really desires the screen shake to be less. One would mitigate the motion-sickness AND make poptart sniping easier, one would simply mitigate the motion sickness. Hmmm....implications abound...

I think both shakes need to go - when JJs are active PGI can either turn reticle into large circle, remove reticle completely, disable weapons, etc. I am perfectly fine with "turn JJs off, then pull the trigger" instead of "pull the trigger, then turn JJs off" idea as long as the actual use of JJs doesn't physically affect me (as a player).

[Mason Grimm]

Mawai, on 05 June 2013 - 07:19 AM, said:

.....but for most players the time between end of shake and loss of target during the jump are small enough that the efficiency of pop-tarting appeared significantly impacted.

I played a few games this morning and saw several known poptart-only players suffering greatly. They were averaging 150 damage per match with less than half their usual kills before they were taken out completely. In fact one team, who has been known to play whack-a-mech a lot, was completely rolled over by brawlers because they simply couldn't compensate.

Granted, I did see one or two folks pop-tart with fairly deadly accuracy.

I am guessing that the divide between a well built mech, piloted by a skilled pilot, and a "barely able to lift off the ground" mech piloted by a mediocre player, just got a lot bigger

Edited by Mason Grimm, 05 June 2013 - 07:25 AM.
Apparently I couldn't spell suffering properly.

[Kunae]

Mason Grimm, on 05 June 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

I am guessing that the divide between a well built mech, piloted by a skilled pilot, and a "barely able to lift off the ground" mech piloted by a mediocre player, just got a lot bigger

Which is actually against PGI's stated purpose. Where's the "fair" and "equal" in that?

If skill actually matters to them, then they should remove throttle-decay, arm-lock, SSRMs, zoom, and don't implement 3rd person view.

[Septo]

Enjoy whit this Fix Stalker Full LRM will be back ahaha gg

Break poptart to comeback stalker LRM boat...Oh yeah this fiw was so needed....

[Firenze]

Being a jumpsniper myself (Yes yes throw the hate my way, Im expecting it) I actually think the shake is good. Yeah its a little violent, but what it forces JJ snipers to do is close the range a bit more, to compensate for the aim wobble, Which in turn gives close range and med range mechs to have a chance.

What you are going to see now is alot more land sniper builds popping up, and then people will cry about them. Snipers will always be in the game, just... try to find tactics and workarounds to deal with them.

[Gowan]

Look, implementation here isn't perfect, but I'm going to be honest -- you shouldn't be able to fire accurately while jumping. I can safely say that I would be sick as a dog if I spent my jump-time trying to focus on the bouncing cross-hairs, but there's an easy solution -- stop trying to focus on them. Stop trying to put accurate fire downrange in mid-air. Time to find the new flavor of the month -- don't worry, I'll be whining about it soon enough, I'm sure.

Somebody asked (probably jokingly) who to sue if they had a seizure. I direct any serious inquiries to the TOS, where you all agreed that IGP/PGI are not responsible for any damages caused to you in any way by use of their product.

To PGI -- feel free to do whatever you need to allow people who are feeling sick to play the game. God knows if I was feeling the same effect, I would want something done about it. But you guys did a great job neutering poptarts, please don't give their easy-mode balls back. Please. Think of the children. Or puppies. Or whatever.

Also:

Kunae, on 05 June 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

Which is actually against PGI's stated purpose. Where's the "fair" and "equal" in that?

If skill actually matters to them, then they should remove throttle-decay, arm-lock, SSRMs, zoom, and don't implement 3rd person view.

I haven't read this entire thread for context, but please tell me you aren't seriously condemning PGI for building a skill-wall in a multiplayer game (and failing to differentiate between things that should be difficult, like sniping in mid-air, and things that shouldn't, like the basics of handling your machine). If so, I am fully prepared to make some pretty tired remarks regarding CoD and how you should go back to it, but I don't want to jump the gun if you're being sarcastic.