1217 replies to this topic

[LongDonJohnsonz]

It makes me rcperience vertigo and gives my a slight headache after an hour or so.

[Uruku Telal]

tbh i wasnt caring about the motion sickness, the first time i played Castle Wolfenstein, I got sick, to the point of vomiting. This almost makes me feel the same, if it were possible to use skill I would train myself to ignore the vertigo, but its completely random.

[blinkin]

Mellifluer, on 07 June 2013 - 11:33 PM, said:

sry but others argument that a mech simply "has to shake" just because it is jetting is sadly patently fallacious. the reality is that larger mechs would dampen the JJ quite well being it has much much more mass and a much slower ascent compared to a spry small mech that should ascend quickly albeit more erratically, the JJ in this game do not make a mech move fast enough for anything other then aerodynamic drag and gravity to affect them as far as realism is concerned, so all arguments that mechs with/without slimmer/aerodynamic profiles should/shouldn't shake is also similarly fallacious.

i haven't mentioned aerodynamics, because these mechs aren't really going fast enough for air resistance to matter. i do however note the fact that these machines are not properly balanced and designed for flight, because that is not their primary mode of transportation.

the amount of thrust is going to change based on the mech, because it takes more thrust to lift a highlander 20 meters than it does for a jenner. so the bigger mechs get to deal with MORE force than the smaller ones. as long as the mechs are traveling the same distance, the force needed to propel them MUST stay proportional to the mass of the mech. IT MUST BE ENOUGH TO COUNTER THE GRAVITATIONAL AND INERTIAL EFFECTS ON THE GIVEN MECH.

this is because as far as rockets are concerned if your thrust is constant IE unchanging, once any object is off the ground the envelope of exhaust is force that pushes against the mass of a mech, this is not some uncontrolled un-throttled force widely directed at all angles down. it is a constant-direct-force creating a uniform-gas-pressure-wave underneath the object. (on its own this gas bubble is actually a shock absorber acting to dampen out irregularities of pressure within the pocket creating a more perfect uniform wave) rockets and mechs should experience the worst shake close to the ground with light mechs having more shake then heavier mechs. this is because the ground will disrupt its "perfect" gas bubble, create turbulence and preventing uniform pressure against the thrusters.

EXCEPT we are dealing with multiple engines on several places on these mechs, AND mechs have legs. legs sticking down into the gas bubble would thoroughly screw it up if it extended far enough to "cushion the mech". also if a cushion did exist of that size it would be completely left behind if the mech experienced ANY motion besides straight up and down. so if the mech is even going at a slow walk the cushion of gas gets left in the air behind the mech.

yes this is a constant direct force, but there is no engine that can direct 100% of the force in any direction. the engine itself will create turbulence causing shake along with the natural vibration of moving components. if an engine didn't produce any shake it would be completely silent too, because noise is part of the produced shake.

im no rocket scientist here but its easy enough to look into these things (google) and realize that if you are comparing rockets, a small rocket with a high thrust to weight ratio would prove exceedingly hard to control, simply because the exhaust forces outweigh the mass of the rocket so significantly. a heavier rocket is much much more stable because as others have pointed out, they simply have more mass to dampen the shock and oscillations. E=MC squared and all that. <-Einstien needs to punch you really, really, really, hard. this is probably one of the most horrible abuses i have seen with respect to that equation. we ARE NOT creating matter, and the current subject has absolutely nothing to do with atomic detonations of any kind.

thrust to weight must be maintained uniformly or the light mechs would leap 200m in the air while the assault mechs would just puff up dust and never leave the ground.

this is simple physics, if you doubt me make a few cheap hobby rockets, take two the same size and add a weight in the nose of one rocket (not to much or it wont even take off lol) and leave nothing in the other, see which one flies straighter. i predict the one with the weight, even tho it may not fly as high, it will fly straighter, and that is a direct result of the extra mass dampening lateral forces that act on a rocket, both its own forces and outside ones. also balance of the weight relative to the axis of travel plays a role in stability as well. this is why rifling barrels and rockets that spin are more accurate. they turn the vibrations into spin, which more efficiently directs the energy imparted to the mass along the intended path. how does this affect mwo? idk but i have spun in circles with JJ so it would be nice to have a "realistic" effect as a result.

if the center of gravity is shifted then yes it is less likely to fall over, BUT i have seen no mention of these mechs falling over on take off. if you move the engines to the top of the rocket it will fly very straight before it burns off the bottom half.

but even here (whether it has anything to do with cockpit shake or not) you are messing with the thrust to mass ratio. which must remain relatively similar throughout mechs if we are to get jump heights that are even close to similar.

but simply put i don't want to see lights with the worst shake or heavies with no shake at all. i would prefer a good middle ground that involves NO shaking at all past a terminal point where the gas bubble is no longer disrupted by the ground, no 10m pop sniping but feel free to fly high and gently along as lights should. lights should have a much lower terminal height which they gain stability. this also makes sense because they wouldn't need such large thrusters. bigger mechs would need to achieve a higher altitude to achieve stability but it would be there and you wouldn't need to kill the thrust to get stability.

gas bubble of that size cannot be maintained by mechs. like i said before the legs on the mechs would disrupt it thoroughly. all rockets that rely on a cushion beneath them have NOTHING inside the area below the engine.

I don't think the random reticle/aiming is valid either. there is a tank referred to as a M-1 Abrams, can go 60kph? (dont quote me on that) but it CAN fire 3 round salvos at full speed across rough terrain AND make all 3 rounds land at the same time on the same target, by using trajectory when firing and a fairly simple computer to control it all. modern technology and there is no reticle shake whatsoever a computer simply auto targets and fires, all the tank gunner has to do is select targets and hit a button. where is my radar controlled auto-cannons you say? and as many others have stated and i have yet to see refuted, random=random, there is no skill in random only luck.

modern technology does not apply in the battletech universe. most technology has been lost and is being rediscovered. most of these mechs are created by factories that no one knows how to build anymore. the factories just crank out mechs and as far as most are concerned it might as well be magic.

i don't care for random either but the proper physics equations involved to properly simulate these effects would melt most computers, so we go for the next best thing, srand.

JJ shake should go out the window period, i can hardly bear to shoot at the lights now, i purposely ignore them if im not playing a light or they aren't directly harassing me. i feel bad knowing they cannot escape, cannot skirmish nearly at the level they were before. just feels unsportsmanlike like, like shooting a lion in a cage.......

i still love my jenner. i still plant ERPPC rounds into mechs just fine while i am flying around. i have no problems compensating for the little bit of reticle jitter.

it hurts my eyes and punishes anyone for simply using JJ which completely nullifies their advantages. JJ already take up space and weight. in bigger mechs like HM JJ are 2 tons a piece so in your 90 ton assault 10 tons of it can be pure JJ. i would say that was already an ample tradeoff of firepower and speed for what amounts to superior mobility. the JJ nerf now means those 10 tons are an absolute waste and no one needs more then 1 JJ and they only need it for getting over terrain faster or light jump brawling. so why even bother making any variants that have more then 1 JJ? what of the spider that gets 12? why cant it JJ smoothly? HM gets more JJ then any other assault, shouldn't that mean it gets more stability or better jetting then the other assaults?

i still love my jump jets and keep 5 on my jenner. the physical discomfort caused by the screen shake is an issue, but luckily the visual effect can be removed WITHOUT taking out the aiming penalties.

more jump jets means more thrust. more thrust means more shake.

JJ should not be an eyesore for anyone, even if all they use JJ for is getting up that one level to keep up with the team, even if all its for is to jump over those annoying 5m rocks in all the maps to make a quick escape. it does not matter how long or short you prefer to JJ you shouldn't be punished at all for simply wanting to use the 3d dimension as a tactic. and all those that want to "punish" the JJ you need to play another game, JJ are a part of mechwarrior and just because you want to cling to your fatlas doesnt give you privilage of forcing every other player to fight against your fatlas with no real alternatives.

like i said before the VISUAL aspects that are causing discomfort should go, but the rest should stay. jump jets are part of battletech as a whole and along with them come aiming penalties for firing them while in the air which from what i understand are 50% worse than running penalties.

i have been fighting atlai with my jenner flying around and planting rounds into them. the little bit of inaccuracy has only made shots slightly harder.

which is all ive been seeing so far, lrm boats fatlases and insta smackdown across the board. this is not balance, this is not fun, JJ allowed uniqe and varied tactics to oppose such simple tactics as blobbing or overpowering force. now there is no alternatives there are only fatlasess and and blight out the skies. getting cored 5 different directions from instagib dual guass ac20 erppc srm+artimes with the LRM 100 smacking you down, is not what i would call tactics or fun. <-wooo! hyperbole! 5x LRM20, that is 50 tons (WITHOUT AMMO) dedicated to LRM. too bad the missiles right now do crap for damage.

jump jets still allow all of the same tactics they did before. now it just requires a little bit more effort.

do a chain fired pair of AC2 also cripple you entirely? since shake is so incredibly devastating.

[blinkin]

Uruku Telal, on 08 June 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

Its probably the reason for the new lag issues. And it wasnt needed it sucks. Gets rid of all reason to use jump sniper mechs like the cata-3d, I should be able to hit on the way up as well as down, with skill.

does jump jet shake also cause cancer? i mean if we are going to throw down entirely baseless claims why stop with lag issues?

so your "skill" was entirely destroyed by a small amount of reticle shake? you should go back to your point and click adventures where it is safe and you don't have to worry about things being hard to do.

[Demuder]

I really think that the majority people are confusing any discomfort they feel trying to focus on the jerking reticule while JJing (headache, eye strain, etc) with "motion sickness" that could be caused by the screen shake. That being said, I don't think the game should become a physiological study on whether those visual effects actually cause motion sickness.

The answer to all this debacle is very simple. Remove the screen shake (which incidentally is prevalent in the game when you are shot by ACs, LRMs, SRMs, etc, and it is really interesting that it doesn't cause any adverse effects then) but also remove the cross hairs altogether when JJs are active. Since there's no way to aim using the reticule while JJing, and since you are not supposed to anyway, there is no reason for them to be there. People will stop trying to focus on a jerking dot in the center of a shaking screen and thus, "motion sickness" will be avoided.

This way you will save people from the delusion that they should try and aim when their JJs are active, and although the screen shake is a realism FX for most people, I am willing to give up some "realism" in order to alleviate the affliction of so many in the community.

[Uruku Telal]

blinkin, on 08 June 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

does jump jet shake also cause cancer? i mean if we are going to throw down entirely baseless claims why stop with lag issues?

so your "skill" was entirely destroyed by a small amount of reticle shake? you should go back to your point and click adventures where it is safe and you don't have to worry about things being hard to do.

I program for a living,...
Its obviously a randomization of point of origin and trajectory based upon your FPS, this must be updated with the server, and the other mechs in you POV (at least), for every chance you might have at firing, thus causing lag due to a magnitude of new algorithms. Sorry I'm not pulling this outta my ***, it common sense.

[MonkeyCheese]

dimstog, on 08 June 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

The answer to all this debacle is very simple. Remove the screen shake (which incidentally is prevalent in the game when you are shot by ACs, LRMs, SRMs, etc, and it is really interesting that it doesn't cause any adverse effects then)

We all know there is shaking when those kind of weapons are hitting you but there are a few differences to the jumpjet shake

1. You are not being hit for an entire match like the jj shaking for a spider going up and down slopes in the canyons map, If people are shooting you with these kinds of weapons you either get out of view of the enemy or you die its simple, If I dakadaka someone with my 2 ac2 dragon/jager they either move or get bits blown off them.

2. The crosshairs of your weapon dont bounce around violently when getting shot but they do with the new jumpjets

dimstog, on 08 June 2013 - 01:47 AM, said:

I am willing to give up some "realism" in order to alleviate the affliction of so many in the community.

Most people here seem to agree with this, and almost everyone here agrees that the shake could go while still keeping the bad aim mechanic for nerfing the poptarts. But sadly there are some here think since we scream remove the nerf (whatever the reasoning) we also want to unnerf poptarts, and they want them to stay nerfed even if it means light pilots take a hit too.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

sry but others argument that a mech simply "has to shake" just because it is jetting is sadly patently fallacious. the reality is that larger mechs would dampen the JJ quite well being it has much much more mass and a much slower ascent compared to a spry small mech that should ascend quickly albeit more erratically, the JJ in this game do not make a mech move fast enough for anything other then aerodynamic drag and gravity to affect them as far as realism is concerned, so all arguments that mechs with/without slimmer/aerodynamic profiles should/shouldn't shake is also similarly fallacious.

i haven't mentioned aerodynamics, because these mechs aren't really going fast enough for air resistance to matter. i do however note the fact that these machines are not properly balanced and designed for flight, because that is not their primary mode of transportation. - wasn't saying you did, I'm just lumping everyone's opinion that I've seen into one large post and trying to say it all at once. i apologize if you thought i was trying to use your post for more then a cursory example of the opinion at large that i have observed thus far. with that said mechs do move fast enough for drag to have an effect. 150kph is pretty fast and will cause alot of drag, these are not sleek BMW's they are big ugly dump trucks, secondly yes there are actually many mechs that were designed to be good at JJ, the jenner is the first one that comes to mind, is this even a question? there were land air mechs explicitly designed for this purpose, a slew of specialty JJ mechs built around mobility and lots of jumping power, is the common contention that the spider exists for no reason? I have all three spiders because i love the idea of a JJ light that scouts and flies everywhere like in TT and yes there are dozens that mechs were never designed with flight in mind, however many dozens more that were designed explicitly to fill the mobility gap that regular JJ mechs just couldn't fill. half the lights in this game are those high mobility JJ mechs.

the amount of thrust is going to change based on the mech, because it takes more thrust to lift a highlander 20 meters than it does for a jenner. so the bigger mechs get to deal with MORE force than the smaller ones. as long as the mechs are traveling the same distance, the force needed to propel them MUST stay proportional to the mass of the mech. IT MUST BE ENOUGH TO COUNTER THE GRAVITATIONAL AND INERTIAL EFFECTS ON THE GIVEN MECH. and thats why JJ are 2 tons on assaults and 0.5 tons on lights, there already was game balance concerning JJ power. so since JJ scale with size 1 JJ should propel any mech the same distance, hence the reason for spiders with 12 JJ, because sometimes 8 just isn't enough. but in this game there is no benefit to actually using 12 JJ they don't really make your spider jump as far as it should and this is part of the problem. using 1 or 2 JJ is just as effective as 5 there is no reason to use tons of them unless you like violently shaking the whole battle. not sure what inertial effects you are referring to, because atm there is no directional thrusters and JJ do not stop you from sliding in this game. JJ only have to push your mech up in a weight distributed fashion thats it, the gyro and automated computer controls would be used for stabilization, there are even super advanced gyros in TT that improve your mechs accuracy. Note rockets to not scale like this in RL.

this is because as far as rockets are concerned if your thrust is constant IE unchanging, once any object is off the ground the envelope of exhaust is force that pushes against the mass of a mech, this is not some uncontrolled un-throttled force widely directed at all angles down. it is a constant-direct-force creating a uniform-gas-pressure-wave underneath the object. (on its own this gas bubble is actually a shock absorber acting to dampen out irregularities of pressure within the pocket creating a more perfect uniform wave) rockets and mechs should experience the worst shake close to the ground with light mechs having more shake then heavier mechs. this is because the ground will disrupt its "perfect" gas bubble, create turbulence and preventing uniform pressure against the thrusters.

EXCEPT we are dealing with multiple engines on several places on these mechs, AND mechs have legs. legs sticking down into the gas bubble would thoroughly screw it up if it extended far enough to "cushion the mech". also if a cushion did exist of that size it would be completely left behind if the mech experienced ANY motion besides straight up and down. so if the mech is even going at a slow walk the cushion of gas gets left in the air behind the mech. ok so im not going to explain basic concepts to you, if you don't understand how a rocket works with hot gas's, don't speak. honestly don't give people a reason to call you out. hint, rockets generate force in one direction regardless of whether they are close to the ground or not, and irregardless to the orientation and momentum of the frame, so does that mean the cushion of hot expanding gasses just wisps away in the wind anytime there is a stiff breeze? or anytime a mech simply changes direction its rocket thrusters magically produce no thrust? look into this there is a cushion of expanding gas that is the force that pushes against the thrusters themselves.

yes this is a constant direct force, but there is no engine that can direct 100% of the force in any direction. the engine itself will create turbulence causing shake along with the natural vibration of moving components. if an engine didn't produce any shake it would be completely silent too, because noise is part of the produced shake. the engine is a fusion reactor with few moving parts also being a fusion reactor means it has no need whasoever to "rev up" it puts out full power all the time. there are no "vibrating" components in a mech, this whole argument for JJ shake is based in faulty logic period. does the mech "vibrate" when its walking? or just standing there? no, it sways and bows when it walks because of the motion of the legs, but this is not vibration.

im no rocket scientist here but its easy enough to look into these things (google) and realize that if you are comparing rockets, a small rocket with a high thrust to weight ratio would prove exceedingly hard to control, simply because the exhaust forces outweigh the mass of the rocket so significantly. a heavier rocket is much much more stable because as others have pointed out, they simply have more mass to dampen the shock and oscillations. E=MC squared and all that. <-Einstien needs to punch you really, really, really, hard. this is probably one of the most horrible abuses i have seen with respect to that equation. we ARE NOT creating matter, and the current subject has absolutely nothing to do with atomic detonations of any kind. thats not the equation you are thinking of <- http://www.einstein-...ights/atombombe, really im gonna stop responding too your inablity to use your nogin. "For Einstein, mass (more precisely: relativistic mass; the property that determines how difficult it is to change a body's speed or its direction of motion) and energy are simply two different names for one and the same physical quantity. Whenever a system has an energy E, it automatically has the relativistic mass m=E/c2;" it is the standard defacto equation for determaning the RELATIVE amount of energy an object has RELATIVE to its mass and velocity. with a certain amount energy, it just so happens to have many parrallels with the way atomic energy works as well. which is why everyone associates it with the nuclear bomb, but it inofitself has nothing to do with a nuclear boom. only the amount of energy and mass involved. so dont be so fast to call people a tard. because you just made yourself look like one. einstien was a peacefull man i will have you know that never aproved of any violence at all, he was a total pacificst and he hated the atomic bomb and everything that came from it, he went to his grave regreting help make that thing. so think about that before you speak for the dead .


thrust to weight must be maintained uniformly or the light mechs would leap 200m in the air while the assault mechs would just puff up dust and never leave the ground. - ok so dont really get this, JJ scale with mech size so? all i was pointing out is that since in RL rockets DO NOT scale lineraly with power ( a rocket twice the size of another, all other things being equal WILL NOT BE ABLE TO LIFT TWICE THE LOAD as the smaller rocket) this is exactly why small mechs would have a high thrust to weight ratio because their rockets are simply more effective, large mechs rockets even being twice the size wouldnt really have twice the push. the end effect is the same, light mechs jump around like a cessna with a scramjet duct taped to the back, where as assaults are more like the rocket boosters on the C-130, powerfull and steady force.

this is simple physics, if you doubt me make a few cheap hobby rockets, take two the same size and add a weight in the nose of one rocket (not to much or it wont even take off lol) and leave nothing in the other, see which one flies straighter. i predict the one with the weight, even tho it may not fly as high, it will fly straighter, and that is a direct result of the extra mass dampening lateral forces that act on a rocket, both its own forces and outside ones. also balance of the weight relative to the axis of travel plays a role in stability as well. this is why rifling barrels and rockets that spin are more accurate. they turn the vibrations into spin, which more efficiently directs the energy imparted to the mass along the intended path. how does this affect mwo? idk but i have spun in circles with JJ so it would be nice to have a "realistic" effect as a result.

if the center of gravity is shifted then yes it is less likely to fall over, BUT i have seen no mention of these mechs falling over on take off. if you move the engines to the top of the rocket it will fly very straight before it burns off the bottom half. <- not sure what your point is but i would love to see falling/tripping as a real game mechanic, it would be an appropriate counter to JJ abuse, make landing a skill based mechanic. but in ofitself mechs falling over for just JJ? really? where did you get the rockets on top? i will admit you have completly lost me on this one.


but even here (whether it has anything to do with cockpit shake or not) you are messing with the thrust to mass ratio. which must remain relatively similar throughout mechs if we are to get jump heights that are even close to similar. <- if PGI just used TT rules for JJ range this would be a non issue, but as ive stated before even if you put 10 tons of JJ on HM it doesnt really seem to get you any higher then just 1 or 2 JJ so JJ as a whole are broken not just because of shake but mostly because you cant really use them to do anything but move up one level, or jump over one mech, which is absolutly ridiculas for lights and other fast JJer's.

but simply put i don't want to see lights with the worst shake or heavies with no shake at all. i would prefer a good middle ground that involves NO shaking at all past a terminal point where the gas bubble is no longer disrupted by the ground, no 10m pop sniping but feel free to fly high and gently along as lights should. lights should have a much lower terminal height which they gain stability. this also makes sense because they wouldn't need such large thrusters. bigger mechs would need to achieve a higher altitude to achieve stability but it would be there and you wouldn't need to kill the thrust to get stability.

gas bubble of that size cannot be maintained by mechs. like i said before the legs on the mechs would disrupt it thoroughly. all rockets that rely on a cushion beneath them have NOTHING inside the area below the engine. <- again if you simply fail to understand how rockets work i cannot help you, the legs have nothing to do with it, the cushion is not concentratied on any point, or held in any way, it is a bag of expanding gas that is constently being generatated by the thrusters and propels the mech much like a bullet in a gun with shear downforce. if you want a true analough look as you can see there is some sort of cushion being generated by the hot exhaust gases. please also notice how STABLE it is even tho it cannot move in a direction it chooses (X-13) it still takes off and lands as soft as a babys behind. there is no defending the shake because even in RL with modern tech all VTOL aircraft today have no problems with "vibrations" at all. X-35 just came out look at that, the Harrier too no vibrations just shear force. BECAUSE YOU CANNOT VIBRATE VERY WELL WHEN ALL YOUR PUSHING AGAINST IS HOT AIR. like apparently so many


I don't think the random reticle/aiming is valid either. there is a tank referred to as a M-1 Abrams, can go 60kph? (dont quote me on that) but it CAN fire 3 round salvos at full speed across rough terrain AND make all 3 rounds land at the same time on the same target, by using trajectory when firing and a fairly simple computer to control it all. modern technology and there is no reticle shake whatsoever a computer simply auto targets and fires, all the tank gunner has to do is select targets and hit a button. where is my radar controlled auto-cannons you say? and as many others have stated and i have yet to see refuted, random=random, there is no skill in random only luck.

modern technology does not apply in the battletech universe. most technology has been lost and is being rediscovered. most of these mechs are created by factories that no one knows how to build anymore. the factories just crank out mechs and as far as most are concerned it might as well be magic.<- doesnt change the fact that you need computers to make any mech work period, doesnt change the fact that in the battletech universe this exact thing is a non issue because JJ have defensive advantages to compensate for their inabilty to fire accuratly while jumping, MWO does not have these defensive advantages concerning JJ. ->the factories just crank out mechs and as far as most are concerned it might as well be magic.<- and that is not true at all, the clans never had any dark ages, only the inner sphere suffered that. the clans spent the whole time improving their mechs, their production and quality. in fact the clans were what 200-400 years (don't quote me on that) ahead of the inner sphere, oh and forget that comstar was the bastion of technology, forget that Comstar would help get all the factories going again every couple hundred years because they were the only ones other then the clans that could keep info and tech secure from the dark ages. If Comstar didn't exist the dark ages would never have ended and new technology would never have been discovered, at least for the IS. but again that is also irrelevant, in MWO we are not in the dark ages actually we are actually aproaching the height of tech epoch before the next dark age that occurs as a result of the clans invasion. which isnt here yet.......... and an m1abrams computer is painfull simple compared even to my EEEPC netbook first gen atom N270 it is a weak sauce computer. even the computer in the apache helicopter is so hopelessly dated that it could be replaced with something the size of my fingernail. there is no argument, the germans pioneered stabilized artillery platforms for their battleships tanks and other cannons, and all they had was vacum tubes for computers, it really isnt that hard to have stabilization tech, its nothing special at all. look at that X-13 that hting is from like 1950 yet it could at least take off and hover somewhat without "vibrations" and land with a skilled pilot.

i don't care for random either but the proper physics equations involved to properly simulate these effects would melt most computers, so we go for the next best thing, srand. - i have a GTX 660 at 1300 core 6800 RAM and 32GB of DDR3 1866 at DDR 1922 on a 4.4 GHZ Phenom II 965 C3 with custom water cooling, 60Gb SSD, and a 10TB raid array of 2 TB 7200 seagates..... bring it please, i want to see how hard these physics really are to crunch. i doubt this game even taxes my PC. but honestly physics are nothing, to properly simulate the effects would be only to easy for modern PC's. especially anyone with a recent nvidia card, especially because this game is build off the cryengine. however? suddenly some thing are to much "simulation" for a mechwarrior "simulator"? will just leave it at that.

JJ shake should go out the window period, i can hardly bear to shoot at the lights now, i purposely ignore them if im not playing a light or they aren't directly harassing me. i feel bad knowing they cannot escape, cannot skirmish nearly at the level they were before. just feels unsportsmanlike like, like shooting a lion in a cage.......

i still love my jenner. i still plant ERPPC rounds into mechs just fine while i am flying around. i have no problems compensating for the little bit of reticle jitter. <- you can placate yourself as much as you want, that does not mean that the JJ shake is acceptable for everyone, honestly your dedication to this JJ nerf, while claiming to be a jenner pilot doesn't really give you any credibility. everyone already knows that all the lights are scrap metal for most of the power builds, period. most of the light mechs need every advantage they can take period. this JJ nerf just slapped everyone that has JJ in the face, said we are gonna trick you all the time with meta, and anything we feel that someone is whining ot much were just gonna nerf all the good stuff so its all crappy. and when its all crappy it will be balanced.

it hurts my eyes and punishes anyone for simply using JJ which completely nullifies their advantages. JJ already take up space and weight. in bigger mechs like HM JJ are 2 tons a piece so in your 90 ton assault 10 tons of it can be pure JJ. i would say that was already an ample tradeoff of firepower and speed for what amounts to superior mobility. the JJ nerf now means those 10 tons are an absolute waste and no one needs more then 1 JJ and they only need it for getting over terrain faster or light jump brawling. so why even bother making any variants that have more then 1 JJ? what of the spider that gets 12? why cant it JJ smoothly? HM gets more JJ then any other assault, shouldn't that mean it gets more stability or better jetting then the other assaults?

i still love my jump jets and keep 5 on my jenner. the physical discomfort caused by the screen shake is an issue, but luckily the visual effect can be removed WITHOUT taking out the aiming penalties. - again you seem dead set on this aiming penelty for a mech that hardly needs it, even if YOU dont need it to aim, ever thing of all the nubs, do you like presenting yourself as an elitist? that just because you have no problem with the jenner, no one else should? the fact that you already know about the workaround (i wont use it no point) means you do seek to take the advantage over other players.......... i just dont beleive you, no light pilot in their right mind would be 100% ok with this JJ nerf. no competent light should have ever had any trouble with poptarts before the JJ nerf, oh wait because um..... oh ya because lights are fast and agile and a good pilot wont get hit if he can see where he is jumping to clearly.......but now... JJ is kinda garbage in that you dont really see whats goin on, cant really pay attention like a light really has to.

more jump jets means more thrust. more thrust means more shake. <- if you just keep spewing garbage i will cease to kindly and politly correct you. more thrust does not mean more shake, everything is relative, more thrust with a light load means lots of shake (no mass to dampen the oscillations), more thrust with a heavy load means less shake (lots of mass to absorb the oscillations). do you think you can wrap your head around that one? tellin you get back to that thrust to weight ratio, its all in there.

JJ should not be an eyesore for anyone, even if all they use JJ for is getting up that one level to keep up with the team, even if all its for is to jump over those annoying 5m rocks in all the maps to make a quick escape. it does not matter how long or short you prefer to JJ you shouldn't be punished at all for simply wanting to use the 3d dimension as a tactic. and all those that want to "punish" the JJ you need to play another game, JJ are a part of mechwarrior and just because you want to cling to your fatlas doesn't give you privilege of forcing every other player to fight against your fatlas with no real alternatives.

like i said before the VISUAL aspects that are causing discomfort should go, but the rest should stay. jump jets are part of battletech as a whole and along with them come aiming penalties for firing them while in the air which from what i understand are 50% worse than running penalties. <couldnt disagree more, there is almost no defensive reason to use JJ anymore, any offensive tactics obviously just bring the wrath of the banhammer so why even bother developing new JJ tactics? tell me please......wont that just anger more players and then PGI will have to nerf JJ again? if i magically find some cool niche with JJ that makes me super effective, wont it just get banhammered faster? JJ are dead if they are not usefull. they are not usefull so now i ask, why have they been left in the game? why are they and mech varients with JJ even on sale? furthermore, why should i or anyone including yourself, spend a dime more on this game if they just nerf every new tactic? what if PGI did just keep nerfing lights, and you couldnt play your jenner anymore? eventually it wouldnt be worth it to play now would it? the concept of nerfing things for being to good, is a slippery slope. its why we havent had game balance, its why PGI is just chopping this and hacking off that with every patch.



i have been fighting atlai with my jenner flying around and planting rounds into them. the little bit of inaccuracy has only made shots slightly harder. - first off i don't believe this at all anymore, the reticle is random so im sure your placating your ego with the fact that maybe only a few more of your shots are missing, but those are legitimate shots that were stolen from you, not abusive tactics that needed to be reigned in. the fact that you WONT or DONT want to defend your jenners greatest strengths does not really reflect well on your skill as a pilot. as a light. seems like you say that only to preclude yourself from the flaming of someone saying you don't actually pilot a jenner. i find that if i don't fight tooth and nail as a light it often is the difference between victory and defeat, not because a light can actually kill the whole enemy team its just THAT important to make sure to eliminate the opponents lights first thing asap without getting cored, and then proceed to harrass the enemy while still trying not to get cored. and i don't see lights as OP at all and now i see them as darn near useless (no offense to anyone i would still love to play my JJ lights but i need my JJ for those lights, till then i will enjoy my commandos and cicadas)

which is all ive been seeing so far, lrm boats fatlases and insta smackdown across the board. this is not balance, this is not fun, JJ allowed uniqe and varied tactics to oppose such simple tactics as blobbing or overpowering force. now there is no alternatives there are only fatlasess and and blight out the skies. getting cored 5 different directions from instagib dual guass ac20 erppc srm+artimes with the LRM 100 smacking you down, is not what i would call tactics or fun. <-wooo! hyperbole! 5x LRM20, that is 50 tons (WITHOUT AMMO) dedicated to LRM. too bad the missiles right now do crap for damage.<- your childish antics give you away good sir, and lrms got a buff this patch, not a nerf, they do MORE dammage now if you didnt realize that. and it doesnt change the fact that you have given yourself away. like ive been saying all along this is really a bunch of "pros" that got angry because the rules of the game changed and they found themselves UNABLE to respond with anything but whining and crying "poptart oh my", so now we are all cursed to use landcrawlers with high alpha damage, thats real tactical right? i mean loading your team with 6 atlas (just happened couldn't believe it) and 2 cataph? all of them cheese builds? thats not defensible in the least bit. not over moving/shooting and tactics, thats just a load of BS self loathing over someone else actually daring to come up with something that makes all the little fatlas and stalker blimps look like a hunk a junk. take the ego bruising, learn to pilot balanced mechs, stop piloting alpha cheese builds exclusively and have fun, JJ were fun and added value to the game.


jump jets still allow all of the same tactics they did before. now it just requires a little bit more effort. - could not dis-agree more, they are useless, dont know about you but i like to play competitively, that means running my mech to the limits, not wasting any space or tonnage. every weapon, every ton of ammo/armor/heatsinks is a game of balance adjustments and tweaking. this patch really does just straight up force people to drop JJ because they already were only barely useable, you still dont jump far, you dont jump fast, you dont even jump high. JJ did all three in TT, yes it should be harder to shoot while in the air, but conversly in TT a mech became harder to hit when it was jumping because it was moving so fast. there is no such advantage in MWO, incidently JJ are now simply not worth the space/weight. <--- if you dont understand why this is so fundementally wrong with mechwarrior then you really should not play this game.


do a chain fired pair of AC2 also cripple you entirely? since shake is so incredibly devastating. <---- where did this come from? are you really this immature? to so brazenly try and use a red herring? it only proves my point. JJ around for tactics and even poptarting was valid, you and everyone else acting like the JJ nerf is the best thing ever. you only give yourself away as the real meta pet abusers by trying to force this game backwards. just because some pople got buthurt over not knowing how to use JJ? because no offense at anyone but for the most part i do just see a bunch of founders finally happy that all their founders mechs are usefull once again..... because the highlander was just better? just got under your skin that someone could simply just have a better plan with better mechs and there was nothing in your lineup that even compared, didnt like feeling like the scrubs you recularly teamspeak to death, knowing that most of the nubs are just gonna get scrapped wholesale?........cry me a river about the "evils of poptarts". bah nothing to watch here just Teamspeak and 6 atlases just pop pop pop, pew pew pew, dakka dakka dakka your team for fun. there is no defending macros or Teamspeak but i wont even waste my breath. i play fair for skill and the thrill of 1v1, thank you for making that basically impossible, JJ gave me 1v1 on the battlefield, and i think thats were the buthurt really is. has nothing to do with "poptarts" and everything to do with the fact that JJ's make a mech better for brawling/sniping/scouting in short everthing, JJ allowed a good pilot to show his stuff and a great pilot to lay the smackdown on your whole team. which is perfectly valid, if you dont like the fact that some pilots were actually good enough to keep your whole team under cover while his team took advantage of your pinned position. you should be thanking him for showing your team how its done.

i guess the JJ were simply so good, the only solution was to give them "random aim" with your whole mech shaking every which way.... and then tell them that they just need more skill.............. sure id buy that for a dollar... not.

where are the lights? where are they? i havent seen them hardly at all, only cicadas and raven hordes, hardly anything else at all. wonder why........... but i guess some people really have to fight tooth and nail attempting every low blow and throwing every irrelivent red herring into the debate. there is no excuse for nerfing JJ, there were already barely usable and only if you stacked the {Shazbot} out of them for most mechs. this nerf hurt lights bad, real bad. hurt poptarts too, but i just snipe you on the ground now and my scores havent really changed that much. lights are once again super easy cbills and i just find myself piloting landcrawlers all the time..... looking up at the sky.... wondering when i can fly again.....and not have to pilot these cheesy cheese builds.......a day to when i can use varied loadouts and can still be competitive.... alas those were the days... lol

Edited by Mellifluer, 08 June 2013 - 07:59 AM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Mellifluer, on 08 June 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Wall of text to end all walls of text!

First off yes I did just read it all

I gotta say you sir I ******* <3 u.

That by far was the best wall of text I think I shall ever read in this forum or any other but that was only your 6th post so who knows only time will tell. Also thanks for the science/physics lesson it was very interesting, and amen to all the points you raised throughout that post.

Its a pitty most will just ignore it thanks to the size.

On a side note

Mellifluer, on 08 June 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

like a cessna with a scramjet duct taped to the back,

I want a hundred of these for my flightsim games please.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

MonkeyCheese, on 08 June 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

First off yes I did just read it all

I gotta say you sir I ******* <3 u.

That by far was the best wall of text I think I shall ever read in this forum or any other but that was only your 6th post so who knows only time will tell. Also thanks for the science/physics lesson it was very interesting, and amen to all the points you raised throughout that post.

Its a pitty most will just ignore it thanks to the size.

On a side note

I want a hundred of these for my flightsim games please.

tyty i just hope pgi reads it and some players come to their senses about this. trying real hard to not make this a personal thing when its really just the players voicing their displeasure with getting minced all the time by cheese builds, poptart or not.

[xterix]

I think the best solution for me would be to keep my Jenner and Spider in storage and bring out my Commando and Raven 3L and play cap warrior until I can fully jump about in my Jenner and Spider again.

[MonkeyCheese]

xterix, on 08 June 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

I think the best solution for me would be to keep my Jenner and Spider in storage and bring out my Commando and Raven 3L and play cap warrior until I can fully jump about in my Jenner and Spider again.

same for me + a 9m

[AnSolloc]

Morning;
I respectfully submit that MWO will find it's own balance of mechs and weapons without the "Tweaks" imposed by the Dev's. We are now dealing with an overwhelming number of brawlers; specifically the Jauger dual AC20 variant after the nerf of poptarting. I agree that the poptarting ERPPC variants is a problem, but the ERPPC is a problem on many Mechs, not just the poptarts. If we have to make changes, changing the timing was a good start, but adding increase heat would be more effective. I understand that this in beta (open beta) but the game needs to find it's own balance through the pilot's adjusting their playing styles to meet the incoming threats. This will free the Dev's time up to getting to the real problems facing the game, a viable CW, which doesn't appear to be anywhere on the horizon. With CW the game is viable; without CW, the game will not be viable. Our group is having a more difficult time keeping pilot's interested in MWO. I and we fervently hope and wish for this game to succeed, but with each passing day and week, it seems less likely.

Thanks.

[King Arthur IV]

xterix, on 08 June 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

I think the best solution for me would be to keep my Jenner and Spider in storage and bring out my Commando and Raven 3L and play cap warrior until I can fully jump about in my Jenner and Spider again.

i can already see it now, nerf capping nerf capping! this game will get nerf to 5hitz soon.

[Werewolf486 ScorpS]

Prosperity Park, on 07 June 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

That's how it works, now. When you let off the thrusters, your screen and weapon platforms stabilize as you glide. Just remember to buffer your landing with the rest of your fuel.

I think the reticule dance looks a little too cartoony... it looks like the pattern you'd get if you ask a really drunk guy to doodle on a pad of paper.

The "Glide" is not very much and needs an increase, or "Buff" as the term is used around here all the freakin time. It's to short, doesn't feel "Natural".

[HarmAssassin]

Love the reticule shake!

Personally I would just have disabled all weapons while jumping, but the shake is a good alternative. Saw some last night that were still able to fire effectively while poptarting but this shake should at least keep that to just the skilled players.

Completely removing the reticule is not a good idea though (people will just place a small sticker on their monitor screen where the cursor is so even when it disappears they'll still know where it is since it is always dead center of the screen).

As for those saying the shake is making them sick... I have serious doubts. If the entire screen were shaking, then yes this could easily trigger motion sickness etc. But with just the reticule shaking, if someone is getting sick from that it means they are staring at the screens WAY too hard. You need to look at the entire screen, not just one tiny reticule. If the reticule shake is making you sick, it means you are focusing way to hard on it. The entire rest of your viewing area (screen, wall, room you're in) isn't moving. It is no different than watching a fly buzz around... those don't make you sick? Stop staring so hard at the reticule.

Edited by HarmAssassin, 08 June 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[DeaconW]

Uruku Telal, on 08 June 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

Gets rid of all reason to use jump sniper mechs like the cata-3d,

Um...YAY! But not true....I still use my Cata-3D.

Quote

I should be able to hit on the way up as well as down, with skill.

LOL...you said jumpsniping took skill...seriously...have....to.....catch....my....breath....

HarmAssassin, on 08 June 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

Completely removing the reticule is not a good idea though (people will just place a small sticker on their monitor screen where the cursor is so even when it disappears they'll still know where it is since it is always dead center of the screen).

You know, I didn't even think of that, but I am certain there are those who would be pathetic enough to do that. Excellent point.

xterix, on 08 June 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

I think the best solution for me would be to keep my Jenner and Spider in storage and bring out my Commando and Raven 3L and play cap warrior until I can fully jump about in my Jenner and Spider again.

Nothing wrong with that. Until we get another game mode, capping is a valid win.

Edited by DeaconW, 08 June 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Event Horizon]

Look at how unbalanced the teams are now... no one uses jump jets and lights. I rarely even see a medium. And when I do see a light or medium their score is horrible. Please revert jump jets to what they were on June 3rd. Until then I will be playing the same half of MWO mechs as everyone else is right now (Assaults and Heavies). Thank you.

[Krivvan]

Eugenics, on 08 June 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Look at how unbalanced the teams are now... no one uses jump jets and lights. I rarely even see a medium. And when I do see a light or medium their score is horrible. Please revert jump jets to what they were on June 3rd. Until then I will be playing the same half of MWO mechs as everyone else is right now (Assaults and Heavies). Thank you.

Not commenting on anything else, but I still play a jump jetting Jenner. I still see many people I end up matched with playing jump jet lights. There is an actual issue about motion sickness and etc., but if that doesn't affect you then you can still learn to aim with the shaking reticule, especially at the ranges that lights normally engage at.

[Red Madman]

I am not a 'pop tart' player. I do however use jump jets for recon, and to fly around stuff while shooting (particularly in fast mechs). That being said, here's my take on Jump jets:

The screen shake is WAY to high. The reticule shake, whatever. Aiming isn't the issue, it's visibility that is an issue. Motion sickness is not the issue, the ability to actually see ANYTHING is an issue.

What are jump jets for if you can't shoot or even scout while using them? Just to jump over stuff? Wasted slots and weight just to be able to jump over stuff....

And, if you want to talk RP, then, really, by 3050, you think someone would have made a better JJ. If not, all the engineers should be shot, and new ones found.