1217 replies to this topic

[Col Jaime Wolf]

h0wl, on 15 June 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

I'm not sure if it's the devs or perhaps the game's project manager but whomever decided to turn 90 ton Highlanders into washing machines on spin-cycles is an i d i o t.<- no need to be so crass, believe me many feel you pain. I think this person or persons should be forced to unlock 5 Highlanders and play them until every slot is unlocked. <- lol no cheating either, they have to use max JJ for each chasis

Until then, boycott buying mechs with MC and transferring any money into the game.

ya to all the trolls out there, i never found myself getting into forum-warrior or trying to get good ideas out there in the forums before this. it was likely because i didn't think JJ were good when i first started playing this game (open beta). it took awhile for me to warm up to JJ mechs, but with experimentation and some curiosity, i found that some mechs truly shine with JJ. that is something that should be valued not scorned, tactical options are few and far between, we need variables to play with, tactics to test and compare against tactics we have tried in the past.

I have never grouped with cheese, arch or any of the others whose posts i have liked or quoted (pretty sure ive dropped in at least a few games with them from the matchmaker, MWO is a small world, they probably cheesed me ) and pointed out had good ides. but that doesn't change that they have good ideas. this JJ nerf really isn't a fix or a band-aid, its a straight up debuff on all JJ mechs, they now don't get to take as many opportunistic shots in the air, at the same time mechs on the ground can still shoot back with impunity as they always could. except now all the land-crawlers have all the confidence in the world knowing that your JJ highlander isn't even gonna scratch their CT. its just bogus.

lights most definitely did not need any of this at all in any way, med didn't need it either, heavies (i admit that i thought at the time i made my dual ERPPC catapult with JJ and xl300 was unfair... because no other heavy/assault could keep up at tall, and i would just kill you from far away, and i would scrape your lights without you thinking i could) didn't need it aside from like 2 mechs the JJ cata guass/erppc build (heat balancing would fix it) and the pult i described. there were no heavies that needed a JJ nerf or re-balance, the srm splatta cat has been out of style for a patch or two now, assaults? only the highlander even has JJ, so saying we are gonna "nerf poptarts" is like saying everyone can jet except assaults when there is only 1 assault JJ mech anyway. but were gonna nerf all jj mechs because we don't really like 1 mech? doesn't make sense.

the over the top reaction to JJ has caused most mechs to simply not benefit from JJ very much, unless your hardened enough that you just have to use JJ, its much better now to drop them and simply just alpha more often/higher.

actions like this gravely affect players confidence in the game maker/publisher and so on, because it feels like we are being duped into getting the coolest latest greatest mech, only because the newest mechs usually end up being the trick of the month...

PGI please for the love this game and mechwarrior add more weapons, fix JJ so they are good again, fix the heat issues so we don't have to tolerate extremely unrealistically unbalanced land-walkers, that make every other weight class of mech obsolete save for lights and only because of their speed/agility allows them to not get cheesed. add a real matchmaker so we don't have to play with or against silly and stupid alpha builds if we don't want to. we will see real mech balance only when we see a real game lobby that allows us to set the restrictions on mechs/loadouts/weightclass. because the player base will find good settings and ways to produce fun and balanced matches. this "poptart" issue is a game lobby issue, a serious lack of a real game lobby that supports restrictions on mechs/loadouts.

grouping is cool and fun, but i want to hang out in a lobby and play with the same players a couple roundsm, you know? maybe, who knows, i might make new friends. the current system is simply to "unfriendly" for players like me (sad face), i usually only play with my RL friends because the learning curve on this game is simply too much for many (this is a reality many mechwarrior games however, like any other sci fy game of this caliber), and i dont want anyone to "feel" like they "have" to play with me and my team if there is a better team for them (likely there is with my stats lol). for them to know that their death is almost always going to be either a "super" light or a cheese cannon. I would like to make a small merc corp with all my mechhead friends, but not if i have to convince them that playing an alpha blaster is some kind of "fun" or some kind representation of mechwarrior. I don't want to be that guy that has to defend the game, i want to be that guy that has fun playing the game. i can play with the landcrawlers because i still will just get behind it and beat it down with raw piloting, its not so easy for people just trying to get into this game, and i do feel for them.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

was checking the rules. TT gives a +3 'to hit' modifier for jump jetting mechs. They give a +2 to any mech that is running. A +1 to any mech that is walking. and a 0 for a stationary mech. So PGI doesn't need to lessen JJ shake, they need to spread it to everything everywhere all the time. Oh your stalker was moving over 50kph? Randomize those shots!! Make that reticle jiggle till you need to spend 100MC on a barf bag item for your cockpit.

Also, do you know what crazy **** the JJ can do in TT? Lets just say, relative to MWO, they ******* fly, they don't barely manage to hop over buildings. They don't laboriously hump mountain rockfaces, hoping to inch over...nope...nope....not...can't make it.. and now I have yellow legs. Jump jets even have a section in the book for offensive usage. None of that. NOT ONE ********* SPECK OF THAT TRANSLATES PROPERLY INTO MWO. You know how difficult it is to hit a moving target? While you're also running at speed? Well that's the intended difficulty. That's the skill. Wow. We made it. Who knew were that good? That plus 3 for JJ? That's because you're rocketing across the map at high speed. If you manage to hit an enemy, you're Luke Skywalker. You're not levitating a few tens of meters into the sky, you're flying to the northeast corner of the map, over cities and mountains and all over terrain, to flank the entire enemy team. In that instance, yes. Sure. Bring up Table top.

But please don't use table top to try to justify Spastic Aimsight Disorder.

SAD hurts. SAD kills. SAD gets you killed. SAD ruins beautiful games. Fight the spread of SAD. Don't expose your mechwarriors to SAD. Get them tested today.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 16 June 2013 - 07:58 PM.

[Mystere]

Solis Obscuri, on 16 June 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

Using JJs has given a penalty to-hit since 1984. Why is this a surprise to anyone?

I think making someone throw up is too much of a penalty. Don't you think so?

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

The physics associated with JJs just suck. Why oh why can't I change direction in mid air when I'm flying my spider at 150kph? I mean, the JJs are torso mounted. I run and jump then no matter which way I turn my torso whilst firing my JJs I still end up in a straight line from where I initiated my launch. I'm calling foul PGI.

[Primetimex]

This whole jump-jet shake nerf is a big JOKE - what do I see when I see other mechs jumping? I don't see the mechs shaking like a bull on a rage as it supposed to according to the crazy cockpit and reticle shake - no, Heavy Metals and Highlanders still jump smoothly when you see them and the same goes for other mechs.

Please, please stop mucking around and nerfing what isn't broken it's just going to lower the skill level until zero is required to play htis game.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

just everyone walk around in big herds of steel, shoot their weapons at enemies, and try to die last. That doesn't even look fun on paper.

[Axen Marik]

Suggest removing the screen shake and instead letting just the reticle do the shaking while also adding disruption of weapon convergence, especially for arm mounted weapons while JJ's are being fired. This lets the intent of the mechanic still work without making people worry about what they ate before they started playing for the day. I would also think that the level of the disruption be scaled by tonnage. The agility of each mech should be counted on for its response to this mechanic. I hope to see advanced gyro modules or equipment to help combat this effect in the future as well.

[Ilithi Dragon]

The problem is that PGI nerfed the wrong thing.

JJs weren't broken and OP.

Poptarts weren't broken and OP.

ALL direct-fire snipers were, and still are, broken and OP.

All direct-fire ranged weapons, the PPCs, the Gauss, even the lighter ACs, are over-balanced in terms of effectiveness at range. It's a hold-over from back before Host State Rewind, back when hitting lights and faster mediums at almost any range, and even the faster heavies at longer ranges, was a nightmare because of the latency issues. PGI's solution to that was to increase the cycle time and travel speed, and decrease the heat generation for the long-range, direct-fire weapons, particularly the PPCs, but all ballistic-like weapons got a travel speed buff. This largely resolved the issue at the time, lights and fast mediums were still a pain to hit at range, but it was doable, and any big mech that stayed out in the open at range for very long got the punishment that it deserved.

But, fast forward a few months to today, and we have the exact opposite problem. With HSR, weapons reliably hit where they're supposed to at all ranges, even at relatively high latency, but the buffs that all the direct fire weapons got to compensate for the now non-existent latency issues have not been removed. As such, ALL direct-fire sniper builds, not just the poptarts, are over-powered.

JumpJets got nerfed because they get a lot of attention, and poptarting is has a lot of notoriety from previous MW games, but nerfing JJs completely misses the underlying problem (well, problems), and punishes a whole range of mechs and makes a wide range of mech builds, many of which are not poptarts, extremely difficult to play effectively, if not entirely unplayable.


The solution? It's three fold. Ditch the JJ shake, and do the following:

1. Nerf the travel speed of all direct-fire weapons, ballistics and PPCs (possibly excluding the AC/20, imo it's travel speed is fine), and increase the recycle time of PPCs and Gauss and the heat generation of PPCs

2. Add the mech's velocity to the weapon projectile, that's both the speed AND the direction. So if I'm running at 90kph to the right, perpendicular to a stationary target, I have to lead that far to the left to get my shots to hit if I'm firing a projectile-type weapon. Currently, MWO does not do this, the shot will hit wherever you aim, regardless of your mech's velocity. Adding this in will make long-range sniping and particularly mobile sniping and poptarting much more difficult, because the sniper will have to account for their own motion, vertical as well as horizontal, in addition to their target's motion.

3. Buff SRM damage and reduce the weight of the LBX/AC-10 to make both more viable weapons for Lights and especially Mediums. Brawling Lights and fast Mediums are THE counter to all Fire-Support mechs, be they LRM boats, PPC Stalkers, or Poptarts (just as Fire-Support mechs are THE counter to big, slow, heavy mechs), and both, especially the Mediums, are underpowered in the current game balance. Not only are they too easy to hit at range by the snipers they are supposed to be countering, but they don't pack enough firepower to really be viable on the general battlefield.

4. (optional) Rescale the Medium mech models, so that they are sized appropriately for their weight. Over-sized Medium mech models makes them easier targets for snipers at range, reducing their effectiveness on the battlefield because they don't have the armor to take the hits.

[OnLashoc]

You made me hate anything that jumps because you through in screen shake AND random shots which don't match where the cross hairs are in the middle of their shake... Great.

Jumped back into Atlas, continued to put up 600-900 damage consistently... Thanks, needs to revisit my Atlases anyways.


Screen shake AND random shot placement totally unnecessary for both, could have done one and accomplished the same thing, a reduced number of people poptarting.. You want everyone 100-200 meters away trading punches or lobbing missles from 1000 meters away with no creativity.

Starting to regret my investment slightly, but there is hope. PGI is known to go to EXTREMES first before finding a happy medium, so we've seen what extreme right is like, lets see what extreme left is all about.

[Mechsniper]

F it, Between the 3rd person view issue, and this thread, it is obvious PGI is not listening. Comstar Irregulars had one of the biggest groups active in the game before the nerf. Now the Comstar NA server in its entirety is in collapse, with less and less players on. We had over 30-40 players in scrambles alone at times, and I saw up to 3 8 mans dropping at once for our corps alone before you put in ELO(another fail). Still, no weight balancing. Congrats PGI. you are going to kill MechWarrior for good with this type of strategy. We won't see the game make it to release ever at this rate. My MC purchases are on hold until you show some responsiveness. I will probably be here much less as a result. Hope, its such a cruel thing some times..... Best of luck, I will check in frequently. More so for the camaraderie of my corps at the moment than the state of the game.

Edited by Mechsniper, 17 June 2013 - 02:29 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Mechsniper, on 17 June 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

F it, Between the 3rd person view issue, and this thread

Now imagine how stupid screenshake and a crazy crosshair is going to look from third person view.

I know people want realism so no 3pv, but 3pv with shake is so far from realism.

[Kunae]

Ilithi Dragon, on 17 June 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

The problem is that PGI nerfed the wrong thing.

JJs weren't broken and OP.

Poptarts weren't broken and OP.

ALL direct-fire snipers were, and still are, broken and OP.

All direct-fire ranged weapons, the PPCs, the Gauss, even the lighter ACs, are over-balanced in terms of effectiveness at range. It's a hold-over from back before Host State Rewind, back when hitting lights and faster mediums at almost any range, and even the faster heavies at longer ranges, was a nightmare because of the latency issues. PGI's solution to that was to increase the cycle time and travel speed, and decrease the heat generation for the long-range, direct-fire weapons, particularly the PPCs, but all ballistic-like weapons got a travel speed buff. This largely resolved the issue at the time, lights and fast mediums were still a pain to hit at range, but it was doable, and any big mech that stayed out in the open at range for very long got the punishment that it deserved.

But, fast forward a few months to today, and we have the exact opposite problem. With HSR, weapons reliably hit where they're supposed to at all ranges, even at relatively high latency, but the buffs that all the direct fire weapons got to compensate for the now non-existent latency issues have not been removed. As such, ALL direct-fire sniper builds, not just the poptarts, are over-powered.

JumpJets got nerfed because they get a lot of attention, and poptarting is has a lot of notoriety from previous MW games, but nerfing JJs completely misses the underlying problem (well, problems), and punishes a whole range of mechs and makes a wide range of mech builds, many of which are not poptarts, extremely difficult to play effectively, if not entirely unplayable.


The solution? It's three fold. Ditch the JJ shake, and do the following:

1. Nerf the travel speed of all direct-fire weapons, ballistics and PPCs (possibly excluding the AC/20, imo it's travel speed is fine), and increase the recycle time of PPCs and Gauss and the heat generation of PPCs

2. Add the mech's velocity to the weapon projectile, that's both the speed AND the direction. So if I'm running at 90kph to the right, perpendicular to a stationary target, I have to lead that far to the left to get my shots to hit if I'm firing a projectile-type weapon. Currently, MWO does not do this, the shot will hit wherever you aim, regardless of your mech's velocity. Adding this in will make long-range sniping and particularly mobile sniping and poptarting much more difficult, because the sniper will have to account for their own motion, vertical as well as horizontal, in addition to their target's motion.

3. Buff SRM damage and reduce the weight of the LBX/AC-10 to make both more viable weapons for Lights and especially Mediums. Brawling Lights and fast Mediums are THE counter to all Fire-Support mechs, be they LRM boats, PPC Stalkers, or Poptarts (just as Fire-Support mechs are THE counter to big, slow, heavy mechs), and both, especially the Mediums, are underpowered in the current game balance. Not only are they too easy to hit at range by the snipers they are supposed to be countering, but they don't pack enough firepower to really be viable on the general battlefield.

4. (optional) Rescale the Medium mech models, so that they are sized appropriately for their weight. Over-sized Medium mech models makes them easier targets for snipers at range, reducing their effectiveness on the battlefield because they don't have the armor to take the hits.

Well said, Ilithi.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Thanks! I just don't see any point in going with these radical, game-breaking "fixes" when small rebalance adjustments can make most of the difference.


I dunno how hard it would be for them to add mech velocity to weapon projectile velocity, but it's something that I would really like to see, and I can't imagine that it would be too difficult to do. Conceptually, it wouldn't take much, coding wise, but I don't know what kind of back-end structure they'd have to work through to make it happen. I know MW4 did that, because I was a crack poptart sniper in Mercs, and when you're running at 93kph perpendicular to your target, that really adds up to a lot of lead time at 900 meters. Adding mech velocity to weapon projectile velocity would make a HUGE difference for all snipers, and especially ratchet up the skill level required to be an excellent poptart.

That alone would solve much of the poptart sniper problem, though it wouldn't do much for the PPC Stalker problem. That will require reducing the travel times of PPCs and Gauss, and probably AC/2s and AC/5s, and increasing their cycle times and the heat generation of PPCs. That will make the super PPC boats less effective, especially against the lighter, faster mechs, which are supposed to be their counters.

Giving those ligher, faster mechs more in-close punch by upping the damage of SRMs and reducing the weight of the LBX-AC/10 so it doesn't cost Mediums as much to mount it (and so it's a more worthwhile weapon in general) would also help, because those lighter, faster mechs would be able to mount enough firepower to be worth taking at the expense of durability, especially the Mediums, which aren't fast enough and small enough to get the kind of evasion survivability that Lights can get.

Making the Mediums smaller would also help them, because they're too big, and too easy to hit. Lights have speed and agility to scout and to get a small weapons package onto the target, Heavies have a solid mix of maneuverability and heavy firepower and endurance, and the assaults are the big, slow tanking weapons platforms. Mediums are supposed to be a relatively fast, relatively agile platform that delivers a lot of punch for the weight, at the expense of durability. If you make them significantly bigger targets than they're supposed to be, that combines with their low durability to send their survivability down the sink.

I had another great idea to help the Mediums out, but I was in the middle of typing a sentence, and spaced on the idea by the time I finished. That's what the real problem is, though - fire support mechs are OP because the direct counter to them, brawling Lights and fast Mediums, are under-powered, and direct fire support weapons are too powerful against the very sorts of mechs that should be countering them. This problem is not going to be fixed by undermining a core game mechanic that is used by just one type of fire support mech, and far more by many other build styles in all weight classes and fighting roles. The best way to correct it is to improve the viability of Mediums as a whole, and remove the over-effectiveness of direct fire support weapons against their countering mechs.

[Zephyre]

Taken directly from Sarna.net
link here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jump_Jets

By harnessing the power of a 'Mech's fusion engine to superheat air or another suitable fluid, allow a BattleMech to briefly overcome gravity and rocket short distances over the battlefield.

Jump jets work in a similar, albeit more limited, fashion to the fusion rockets installed on Aerospace Fighters. Inside a magnetically shielded reaction chamber buried deep inside the 'Mech, an electron beam superheats a reaction mass and expels the expanding gases through nozzles located on the back of the 'Mech or in its legs.

In essence you are riding a miniature saturn V rocket into the air. That is not a smooth ride, add into that delicate tracking software and weapons mounted on gimbals and arms and you'd be lucky to hit near a barn. My take is stop crying, adapt. If it makes you sick, change your playstyle. Another option is to stop becoming focused solely upon the reticule. Forming an ocular lock like that in a shaking environment can make anyone sick.

For better or for worse, its in the game. Learn to deal with it. BTW, if you're piloting a light mech, leave off firing till after you release your jets. the aiming system will smooth out.

Edited by Zephyre, 17 June 2013 - 06:45 PM.

[MonkeyCheese]

Zephyre, on 17 June 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

BTW, if you're piloting a light mech, leave off firing till after you release your jets. the aiming system will smooth out.

That is most of the arguments right there, It wont really fix the pro players who want to poptart in their highlanders, it just hurts light mechs who want to shoot during brawling flybys or when dropping off buildings and cliffs while trying to land softly, then there is all the upwards travel on slopes and buildings.

Edited by MonkeyCheese, 17 June 2013 - 06:56 PM.

[Arctic Legacy]

shabowie, on 04 June 2013 - 11:11 PM, said:

Rushed, half-assed and badly balanced.

Maybe it was fully-assed!

[Neutron IX]

Also from Sarna...http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Neurohelmet

Though the bold/underline is from me.

"The neurohelmet reads the brainwaves of the pilot. The basic model of neurohelmet focuses on the human sense of balance. With a multi-ton gyroscope and powerful myomers in the limbs, BattleMechs can stand upright and remain balanced on their own, but the limited intelligence of BattleMechs and natural conservatism of their control computers means they often need to be told when it is acceptable to be off balance, which may be helpful in battle as MechWarriors push their machines. The neurohelmet also provides feedback to the MechWarrior, helping them retain their own sense of balance as they sit 10 to 12 meters in the air atop a swaying, weaving bipedal giant robot.

More advanced neurohelmets provide additional input and output beyond a sense of balance, though they never amount to "Direct Neural Interface" technology. A neurohelmet can provide the MechWarrior with a kinesthetic sense - a sense of how the 'Mech's limbs are positioned - and Star League aerospace fighter neurohelmets served to provide a weak virtual reality to the pilots. In return, MechWarriors can use neurohelmets to provide some clarification the simple commands they are supplying to a 'Mech through joysticks, triggers, and pedals.

Early neurohelmets had to be carefully calibrated to the brain of the pilot. If the calibration was not exact (or if there was the wrong pilot wearing the helmet), this could lead to a host of effects, including headache, dizzy sight, balance problems and disturbing buzzing inside your head (a very weak buzzing remains even if the calibration is correct). Such out-dated neurohelmets are still in use in Clan Sibkos and in old 'Mechs in the Periphery. Modern neurohelmets are more advanced and no longer depend on a specific pilot."

*Edited to remove the formatting that I didn't properly copy over

Edited by Rip Snorgan, 17 June 2013 - 07:11 PM.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

MonkeyCheese, on 17 June 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

Now imagine how stupid screenshake and a crazy crosshair is going to look from third person view.

I know people want realism so no 3pv, but 3pv with shake is so far from realism.

Hey, I have an idea for MWO mk2. Let's dispense with reality altogether and just roll dice to see if we hit or not. Oh wait, they did that with the original Battletech game. I think we just went full-circle.

[OriginalRaidon]

The only comment that I have since my son and I are unable to play JJ mechs any longer due to sickness after a short period and my son was actually vomiting after 30 minutes of play with his group.
If the shake is supposed to make it more realistic than the poor quality gyros/stability system would cause more shake while moving.
The footfalls of the mechs would cause more instability than the constant vibration during a stable assent.

This is new as we are both founders and have played every mech game for the pc. My son also plays a lot of other fps type of games and has never had this result.

[jollyrancher1]

I just wanted to post that I think the jump jet shake change is amazing. It has truly changed the meta game in a positive affective way. Nice job devs/community. Now I just hope we can do something about the 2 ac/20 mechs that are a bit too effective at brawling and the 4, 5, and 6 ppc boating or the 4,5,6 large lazer boats that have super high alpha hits. I would love to see the game be a bit more chaos and not so much peek-a-boo.