1217 replies to this topic

[Scout80913]

Niko Snow, on 04 June 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Tell us what you think of the new Jump-Jet Shake gameplay tweaks!

- Screen shake - Jump jetting Mechs shake while jump jets are active.
- Cross hair shake - Cross-hair shake while jump jets are active.
- Weapon fire spread - Aiming weapons is randomly offset while jump jets are active.[/spoiler]

----
Just a quick FYI for everyone. We will investigate the reduction of screen shake to help those experiencing motion sickness and will try to reduce it to bearable levels. The targeting shake however will remain the same for the foreseeable future.

-Paul

- Screen Shake: I'm prone to motion sickness. Have blown chunks in Blackhawks, Bradleys, Lakotas, Chinooks, various motor vehicles, amusement park rides...if it moves, it's made me sick at some point. This, however, doesn't bother me and seems like a reasonable thing to expect in a multi-ton humanoid contraption flying through the air. I like it.

- Cross Hair Shake: Seems a bit excessive, but that's just my opinion. Opinions are like...well, you know.

- Weapon Fire Spread: I like it...just not in my lights.

In closing: I think these changes are pretty reasonable, but the combination of Cross Hair Shake and Weapon Fire Spread have had unintended consequences for the Spider, Jenner, and Blackjack. These mechs are not solely dependent on jumping and firing, but it is a pretty big part of their combat repertoire. Perhaps you could turn down Cross Hair Shake and Weapon Fire Spread for these lighter chassis.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Rad Hanzo, on 04 June 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

By the way: Motion sickness from that little shake ?

Some people are particularly sensitive. It relates to how their brain interprets the visual stimulation. I thought Niko's post was inappropriate, not just for its attempt at humour on a serious issue, but rather that it gives (dubious) advice on how to minimise sickness and arguably supports the notion that MWO is the cause of it.

[Delete F4]

What ever happen to the 2 shot knock lights on thier *****, assualts thats BT battle style.
PGI has made it into a pillow fight,catering to the crys of no skill no aim players

[DeaconW]

Vectoron, on 04 June 2013 - 07:49 PM, said:

Me thinks we got a cat fight here! Serapth vs Vaan.

Spiders with JJ and flamers on Tourmaline at midnight!

[ValdnadHartagga]

Vectoron, on 04 June 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

Something I have yet to understand is...

If you get motion sick easily.... Why are you playing a piloting/mecha game? Why? I think its utterly obvious that the meta jocks are a little sore about this, and are looking for excuses to make it change.

Seriously though, if you do suffer from motion sickness.... dont play Pilot Simulators. The goal of this game (to my understanding) was not ever to be a game like call of duty, or halo, or any of those. Your piloting a 3 story mass of anger, the slightest jerk or twist should be making you vomit if thats the case.

Also reporting motion sickness here. My primary 'Mech is a Catapult C4 and I utilize my jump jets frequently while maneuvering, especially when in close quarters (hell, my favorite way to attack someone is to lock on with LRMs and Streaks at 200 meters, run, jump, and let 'em have it). I could feel it in my stomach after the first hop.

Now here's the thing: I can play MechWarrior games in slower (i.e., heavy/assault) support 'Mechs because the rate of motion is pretty reasonable for me, and I don't need to twitch as much. I can't play in lights and some mediums because they simply move too quickly for me (unless I build them to be slower, in which case what's the point?). The MechWarrior series is the only FPS-like video game that I am currently able to enjoy.

I used to be able to play FPS games of all types - around the time that Halo came out, I started to experience motion sickness with those types of games (which now includes fast-paced third-person games such as Assassin's Creed). MechWarrior is the only game that allows me to enjoy that experience at a level that I can tolerate (and dictate!). I find that the more control I have over my virtual motions (or the more restricted they are), the less likely I will experience motion sickness (and since 'Mechs move relatively slowly compared to an FPS character, it helps a lot). A MechWarrior game twitch is peanuts versus a professional Counterstrike player's twitch, and you don't need to twitch much to play MWO.




As to shakes, I have a couple of solutions in mind.

Firstly, hotpatch the screen shake out of existence. Players will definitely be lost in the coming week, one way or another but ultimately owing to the current state of jump jets. May as well stem the flow as much as possible while a better solution is made.

My first proposal is, like everyone else, to reduce the amount of shake, reconsider the degree of randomness, and perhaps make it smoother (smooth is good for people who suffer from motion sickness).

My second proposal is to change the operation of jump jets. Instead of a gradual discharge, make them near-immediate burst (i.e., high, but not full, power at activation). The initial effect on the player is a "punch" back into their seat, forcing the camera/reticle down (or up) and back for a moment before correcting to relative center (like flooring the gas pedal in a car), then screen shake can occur as normal while the 'Mech ascends. What this does is provide a consistent (and probably more realistic) visual effect that players can become acclimated to more easily than immediate random shaking and discourage them from firing on the ascent. It can also be a sort of subliminal warning - motion-sensitive players get a sort of warning that screen shake is about to occur, and their brains have a moment to prepare for it. With this route, there could also be some landing motion - force the camera to bob down once the 'Mech's feet hit the ground.

Additionally, there should be additional cockpit noise to accompany the shake - audio cues can help alleviate the visual disorientation. Basically, a few rattling noises and vibrations that are synced with the screen shake.

[Aggressor666]

Arcturious, on 04 June 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Take jump jets out of the game. Seriously, new players coming in will equip these thinking they are going to be useful. All this will do is drive people away from the game. Canon variants with jump jets can just get a few more heat sinks to compensate.

I've listed numerous reasons through the forums already why this is a bad idea to have shake in the game. At competitive levels, this makes Jump jets completely unusable.

1) Lights can't target components. Jump jets bleed off speed and create situations where you can be easily killed. This used to be balanced by the fact you would land pointing away from the enemy. Now however you have to land facing them in order to get a hit in. This opens your CT to fire, even a split second is enough to kill you.

2) Brawling with Jump jets is a death sentence. A good 2x AC20 Jagermech will core your highlander or blackjack out in 2-3 shots. Jump jets could assist you with spreading damage to your legs or arms in a running fight across terrain. Now however they can focus your components while your damage is spread over their mech randomly.

Basically, you have turned all direct fire weapons on mechs with Jump Jets into LRM's. The enemy will always have an advantage over you.

There is no reason to take a highlander now instead of an Atlas. You are tons lighter with no benefit. Same with all jump jet mechs.

The only competitive solution is to take jump jets off your mech and go for a bigger engine, more heat sinks or larger weapons.

To those claiming poptarts, please use your brains. This doesn't effect just poptarts. All uses if jump jets are void. You don't want to use them to get into a fight sooner, as you will die without the edge they give in manoeuvring. You can't use them to escape, as you are giving the enemy free shots at you. At high levels of play a single free shot is too many.

This is not a balancing change, it is in the same order as taking collisions out of the game.

Personally, I have mechs finely tuned with engines bought around certain weight expectations. Now that I have to remove jump jets, I will need to buy new engines for these mechs, new equipment etc. This potentially has put me back 30+ million cbills for all those XL engines. Over my 40+ mechs I have not a single poptart. All my mechs with jump jets used them positionally in brawls or to fight running engagements that are just not possible now.

Remove the change, or remove jump jets. They are dead weight for high levels of play where every shot missed counts and can get you or a team mate killed.

my sentiments exactly remove this moronic shake and remove jump jets to pander to the mouth breathing C.O.D kids so they may charge gloriously across open fields with guns blazing

[DeaconW]

Aggressor666, on 04 June 2013 - 08:42 PM, said:

the mouth breathing C.O.D kids

We call those "[poptarTers]" here...just wanted to clear that up...

Edited by miSs, 11 June 2013 - 10:07 AM.

[Burnsidhe]

The very first thing I disable in any game, singleplayer or multiplayer, is screen-shake. I can't stand it. It's ugly. It's unnecessary. And very often, the programmers use it to excess.

Since this game does not have the option to remove screen-shake, I will simply not play it or pay for MC until the screen-shake is removed.

[Neutron IX]

Disclaimer: I am not a poptart. I have never been a poptart, I will never be a poptart. I have never even piloted nor do I even own a Highlander, and while I enjoy the hell out of my BJ-3 and CTF-3D, I have never poptarted in either of them, not once. Instead I use the JJs in these mechs as intended by the spirit of the table top game, to navigate tricky terrain and then snipe from cover once I get there, or to escape pursuing JJ-less mechs in terrain they can't navigate, or sometimes, to try and get behind a nearby enemy to put myself in their rear firing arc. That is all.

But, I am one of the many who suffer from motion sickness. If you look at my post history, you will see prior to launch that I was voicing my concern that the game would not be playable for folks like myself (a post that Bryan Ekman personally responded to with the assurance that my condition would be considered) and then later, after launch, a resoundingly positive review of how the 1PV perspective was implemented (in which I thank Bryan and the devs for keeping that promise, and striking such a lovely balance of 1PV and playable camera motion). It was smooth, and clean, and until today has not once ever caused a problem for me. I grew to love Spiders, speeding around and targeting enemies, tapping the base to draw some off, and rushing back to center after a few took the bait, soaring over terrain with my JJs. I've never even put a PPC in my Spider, since I hated the idea that that would make it a "combat" machine rather than a scout, and put me in a "potential poptart" category.

Until today. When I got home from work and realized this feature was live, I logged in with apprehension. I selected my SDR-5V, my RVN-4X, my BJ-3 and my CTF-3D, and then took my Spider into the training grounds. Two brief leaps was all it took at full speed. Two, before my stomach started to turn and my head started spinning.

This patch has basically made my JJ equipped mechs completely unplayable. All of them. Please, please, please I beg you to remove the screen shake effect. Completely. You can remove control of my targeting reticule completely when in mid-air, or hell, remove the reticule itself completely until I hit the ground again. I do not care, since I agree that poptarting was turning into a problem, and it needed to be curbed. Disable any and all weapons for the total length of time a JJ is active. Anything.

But PLEASE. I cannot beg you hard enough. PLEASE remove the screen shake. Entirely. Many of my favorite mechs will sit untouched until it is gone.

There HAS to be another way to kill poptarts without ruining such a fun aspect of the game (JJs) for those of us with motion sickness that hate poptarts as much as everyone else.

Sincerely,

Rip

[Archon Adam Steiner]

Look at the game, now.

Battles? Yes!
Scouting? Yes!
Engagement? Yes!
Actual need to be a decent pilot? Yes!

This game is now MechWarrior, and not just a generic cover-based shooter with machines instead of men. The solution has already changed the game back to something so much more tactically diverse that it's absolutely unrecognizable from yesterday. People are playing, not just hiding. Engaging, not running.

Good. Damn. Job. Big thumbs up!

[Vaan]

I'm a FPS player for a long time and sure there is some FPS games which will make me have motion sickness.. but i wont ask the game company to change some specific settings just to suit me and jeopardize a larger community of players. Same as MWO, the JJ shake is to eliminate pop-tarting issues be it whether is on heavy or light mechs so if you have motion sickness, deal with it or just don't play it.

There are some players who claim either JJ shake have no effect on pop-tarting or their light mechs never do any pop tarting which in my opinion, live with it. And those really having motion sickness, sorry but you have to deal with it and pray that PGI can offer some alternative solutions to eliminate pop-tarting before removing JJ shake..

PS: Out of 25 matches i played, im glad only 4 matches which i still see a number of pop-tarters which is really a good improvement from PGI! Kudos to PGI! And i will spend my wallet on upcoming hero mechs or any nice skins!!

[Serapth]

Vaan, on 04 June 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

if you have motion sickness, deal with it or just don't play it.

Do yourself a favor... when you get to secondary school, focus on classes that wont lead you to either customer service or engineering field. As if this is your perspective, neither of these fields will suit you.

[MonkeyCheese]

You people are a high class bunch arnt you?

Just because I have never had this problem before with getting a sick feeling it makes me a liar? You bunch are pathetic and will say anything to nerf this apparent poptarting problem.

I don't think I've ever been in a situation before in or out of games where my vision shakes one way and a crosshair that I am focusing on for aiming is shaking in its own way.

This new mechanic clearly doesn't work in nerfing poptarts as even the patch notes told us to just fire after thrusting upwards.

So then what was the point of this mechanic? Other than just making people sick even if they never had motion sickness before as well as nerfing the jump jetting light mechs??

This new mechanic of screen shaking needs to be removed it is not going to nerf the poptarts that are not getting nauseated and for my case as a laser spider its not really going to alter my performance as my laser beams have a longer duration than an instant shot and I COULD correct my jump jetting aim that is if the screen shaking didn't make me want to vomit after my first match of the day right after patching the game.

Please just remove the shaking and just return SRMs to their former glory. Sure it won't solve that other problem of the 6ppc stalker snipers but fixing the SRMs would be a rude awakening to the herpderp stand still jumping up and down on the spot phracts and highlanders.

[Serapth]

Arrachtas, on 04 June 2013 - 08:58 PM, said:

Actual need to be a decent pilot? Yes!

I love how this always seems to come up; whatever strategy you dont like requires no skill. LRMs require no skill. Poptarts require no skill. SRMboats or Streaks require no skill.


So then, is strafing in ciricles holding down the trigger what everyone considers skill?


For the record, I like the reduction in poptarts myself. I do not like it at the cost of jump jets completely. They made the game LESS tactical, not more so.

[Tarl Cabot]

Comments changes/removed/frak. I do agree that there needed to be some tweaks to JJ game play but with this patch it is extreme for the heavier mechs. My game play (in least favorite HL) here is really frak but the team steamrolled the enemy without too much difficulty. Have taken some meds to ease headache (I rarely get).

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 04 June 2013 - 09:08 PM.

[Serapth]

Well, it was posted to the wrong ( locked ) thread, but the news is good at least:

Quote

Simulation Sickness is not unheard of in video gamers, especially players of 3D First Person Shooters. It has also been well-documented by military forces as a variant of motion sickness similar to that experienced by air and naval staff.

Many sources are readily available online which provide the following basic ways to overcome simulation sickness, including:
-Increasing the ambient lighting in your computer area.
-Increasing the distance from eyes to computer screen through changes in posture, seating an/or desk layout.
-Take a break whenever symptoms appear.
-If you find you are particularly susceptible or if symptoms persist, talking to your doctor.
-Avoid the use of the game functionality (Jump Jets) which triggers symptoms if you find you are sensitive to it.

In the meantime, we ask that you take our increased attention on this matter as an equal and immediate response to the community's collective gut reaction to this situation and we urge all players to speak up in the designated feedback thread.

As per Paul, the screen shake will be reduced to bring the Pilot Immersion Experience™ to nominal levels. Please expect turbulence until then.

That response came across rather patronizing to me... a simple "we know there is a problem and are looking into it, until we fix it, these tips might help" post would have been better received.

Regardless, knowing the the problem is known and is being addressed is at least reassuring.

Hopefully it will be addressed outside of the normal patch cycle.


Server recently dropped for me... anyone else? Perhaps its down for a hotfix, that would be awesome.
EDIT2: Nope, back in no patch, was just a typical disconnect. Bummer, was almost impressed for a second there.

Edited by Serapth, 04 June 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[Inhibition]

I've been playing since the end of 2012 and always read the forums daily,
but NEVER have I been prompted to make a post or create feedback. The addition
of shaking to "balance" jump jets pushed me over the line.

Jumpjets give a versatility to mechs, both an offensive and defensive instrument in combat. A screenshake reduces the creativity and any kind of variability with mechs. Playing a versatile mech game I prize various play styles the most; it's what prevents the game from being repetitive. There's an undescribable excitement from using different playstyles in jumpjets from one extreme to another (light/assault mech, or short/long range weapons).

But with nerfs to srm's, ppc's, light mechs (legging "balance"), why keep nerfing creativity in this game; now jump jets? I really like this game, but constant nerfing play styles makes me, and most likely, other players extremely frustrated. Wish developers would take an opinion like mine into high account, and really think about what they are producing in terms of player satisfaction. Even though I only repeatedly pilot one mech with jumpjets (catapult), I have tremendous sympathy for the playstyles that are effected greatly with an implemented shaking. It makes me even more disappointed thinking of the opportunities I lose in terms of trying different play styles.

I am against the screen (reticle shake, aiming randomness, etc.) with active jump jets entirely.
It's unnecessary. Stop stunting the creativity of playing styles in this game, please.

I always saw that those people saying things like "I won't buy premium" or "I will quit this game if ___ gets implemented" were acting a bit childish and crass, but now I fully understand their frustration. I really do.

[Polojilarious]

Vaan, on 04 June 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

Same as MWO, the JJ shake is to eliminate pop-tarting issues be it whether is on heavy or light mechs so if you have motion sickness, deal with it or just don't play it.

Discouraging players from a specific playstyle by inducing nausea instead of seeking other methods of balance is ludicrous.

And honestly, it's even more ludicrous because the motion sickness isn't affecting everyone.

It's like if you were punched in the groin every time you used jumpjets, but a different guy flew around punch-free. The fact that the second guy plays better with jumpjets is not because he can "deal with it" better, it's because he's not getting punched in the first place.

This needs to be fixed. Poptarts are also a problem, and they also need to be fixed. IMHO, Nausea is a bigger problem than poptarts. It shouldn't really need to be stated, but yes, I prefer getting cored from halfway across the map to feeling physically ill when trying to jump up a hill in my trebuchet.

Edited by Polojilarious, 04 June 2013 - 09:20 PM.

[DeaconW]

MonkeyCheese, on 04 June 2013 - 09:02 PM, said:

This new mechanic clearly doesn't work in nerfing poptarts as even the patch notes told us to just fire after thrusting upwards.

You haven't played the patch...very few poptarts at all. One team that had them...got rolled. It clearly works...your argument is invalid.

[MonkeyCheese]

Vaan, on 04 June 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

I'm a FPS player for a long time and sure there is some FPS games which will make me have motion sickness.. but i wont ask the game company to change some specific settings just to suit me and jeopardize a larger community of players. Same as MWO, the JJ shake is to eliminate pop-tarting issues be it whether is on heavy or light mechs so if you have motion sickness, deal with it or just don't play it.

There are some players who claim either JJ shake have no effect on pop-tarting or their light mechs never do any pop tarting which in my opinion, live with it. And those really having motion sickness, sorry but you have to deal with it and pray that PGI can offer some alternative solutions to eliminate pop-tarting before removing JJ shake..

So you are saying that after playing mwo and light Mechs for a year perfectly fine and not having any kind of history with motion sickness in video games or real lift, that now I along with many other people just have to quit the game or jump jets altogether thanks to a new band aid mechanic that as it even states in the patch notes won't really nerf poptarts.

I'm sorry but I love this game and don't won't to go anywhere and I will fight this topic along with the others, this is far far beyond the ecm debates and the poptarting debates or any other topic, this new mechanic that can be easily abandoned with a hot fix is actually effecting people physically.