1217 replies to this topic

[Dude42]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Nothing wrong with hill-humping...a tried and true, age old tactical maneuver.

I guess I should be more specific. 6PPC hill-humping Stalkers should be taken care of. I'm pretty sure the art of peeking over a hill and firing a shot won't be lost any time soon.

Jaguar Prime, on 06 June 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

So basically you either play close range or don't play at all huh?

I admit, there were complaints but not as loud as the ones about Jumpsniping. Now with Jumpsniping gone, whats left?

Currently, yes. Don't get me wrong, in theory I would like to have viable long range play. Currently it's somewhat OP and cheesy though.

The problem comes when those who like to play "long range" see no problem with duct taping massive amounts of weaponry together and expecting it all to hit the same pixel at any range, instantly. I call this the Point-Click-Win mentality. It likely stems from people playing FPS games with sniper rifles against squishy human targets, and thus are used to "One Shot, One Kill", which works perfectly fine for human v human FPS games, but has no place in a mech combat simulator, which has neither sniper rifles, nor squishy targets.

If they would just fix the instant convergence bug(I call it a bug because there is a pilot tree skill for it, to increase it's speed, however, since it is currently instant, that skill is utterly pointless, thus instant convergence must be a bug), and remove the buffs PPCs were given to combat lack of HSR, now that HSR is in place and working, and add stiffer heat penalties/caps, then I don't think anyone would have room to call long ranged play cheesy, because it would require a lot of skill.

Edited by Dude42, 06 June 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Sagamore]

Syris, on 06 June 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

To me the new shake is a great addition to the game. After the highlander came out the poptarting was to much to handle. It seemed that you had 4-6 poptarts a match. Good work

Part of that can be attributed to people trying out the Highlander and leveling them to Elite. It is a fan favourite mech that was highly anticipated.

[Jaguar Prime]

Aggressor666, on 06 June 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

anyone remember novacats in MW4? yeaaaaa you don't need JJ to poptart and everyone used 3rd person view so they could see OVER the hill and have their opponents targeted before they even exposed themselves

I played in NBT, a first person only league, during MW4. I never played in third person. And yes I remember that Nova cat. I went up against them in an Argus and won. Light Gauss for the win.

[Aggressor666]

Jaguar Prime, on 06 June 2013 - 01:10 PM, said:

So basically you either play close range or don't play at all huh?

I admit, there were complaints but not as loud as the ones about Jumpsniping. Now with Jumpsniping gone, whats left?

at this rate we wont need anything but med lasers and srms in the game

[DeaconW]

Arcturious, on 06 June 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Your shot will miss, their shot will hit.

And this is the fallacious assumption that invalidates your whole argument. There is a chance either shot may hit...but there is definitely a modifier for the jumper who traded SA and mobility for less chance of a hit. But the ground based guy also has a harder shot at an airborne target. It's all tradeoffs. Like it should be.

[Perigrinial]

I didn't notice that much of a difference, but I always lined up the shot roughly and fired as I was falling back to cover. I can still do this just fine. I guess I was doing it wrong based on all the qq.

[DeaconW]

Jaguar Prime, on 06 June 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

At over 800m Jumpsniping and hill humping are basically the same. Where's the difference?

Already explained.

Quote

Maybe you should get better at MWO then maybe these stupid nerfs to playstyles won't happen.

Ironic as it didn't take a "better" player to jumpsnipe...but I don't care about being "better" as much as I care that there is a balance that multiple playstyles can enjoy.

[King Arthur IV]

i do not mind cross hair shake but the screen shake is stupid.

the screen shake does not allow you to make out any objects at all. have you ever driven on a bumpy road?? or look at a point and shake your head at the same time?? your vision does not go out of control just because your body is in motion. if that were the case, how do people run and catch balls??

the screen/cockpit shake is unnecessary.

Edited by King Arthur IV, 06 June 2013 - 02:31 PM.

[DeaconW]

Aggressor666, on 06 June 2013 - 01:24 PM, said:

at this rate we wont need anything but med lasers and srms in the game

Please google the logical fallacy of "reductio ad absurdum".

[B L A D E S]

Horrible solution imho.

I don't believe the community had significant issues with jump-jet centric mechs until the release of the highlander.

The ability to load up the highlander with such a potent alpha while pop-tarting is, from my experience, what caused an imbalance in the game.

I have played for the last 6 months on my 3D phract with 4LL and enjoyed it immensely. I don't believe i ever had a significant advantage over other mechs - it just suited my play style to add another dimension (vertical) to my tactics.

I'll move on now to another of the chassis in my mechbay but I find it a shame that something i enjoyed so much was so radically changed that it just isn't viable anymore to try and make it work.

Why not make jump jets weigh a LOT more in heavies and assaults so that the pilot is forced to sacrifice firepower if they wish to add that third dimension?

Still a great game imho - just suffers from the same issue all online games suffer from: you cannot introduce change into a game framework without impacting the balance - and trying to achieve or retain that balance is an extremely challenging endeavor.

Perpetual beta...

cheers

[Syris]

You guys are killing me with all the whining going on. If you played 8V8 at all you would know that poptarting was way over used. When over half of an 8 man group is comprised of poptarts there is a problem. Guess what I loved my poptart, I played it so much I think I had 300k extra xp on it. But I mostly played it because after a while if I was not piloting a sniping popper I was at a disadvantage. Maybe people will have to learn to peak around corners again or god forbid grab some cover after you fire. For the pilots who mostly used jump jets in maneuvering I feel your pain. I hope they figure out a way to change the shake for you without bringing back the poptarts.

[Jaguar Prime]

Dude42, on 06 June 2013 - 01:17 PM, said:

I guess I should be more specific. 6PPC hill-humping Stalkers should be taken care of. I'm pretty sure the art of peeking over a hill and firing a shot won't be lost any time soon.


Currently, yes. Don't get me wrong, in theory I would like to have viable long range play. Currently it's somewhat OP and cheesy though.

The problem comes when those who like to play "long range" see no problem with duct taping massive amounts of weaponry together and expecting it all to hit the same pixel at any range, instantly. I call this the Point-Click-Win mentality. It likely stems from people playing FPS games with sniper rifles against squishy human targets, and thus are used to "One Shot, One Kill", which works perfectly fine for human v human FPS games, but has no place in a mech combat simulator, which has neither sniper rifles, nor squishy targets.

If they would just fix the instant convergence bug(I call it a bug because there is a pilot tree skill for it, to increase it's speed, however, since it is currently instant, that skill is utterly pointless, thus instant convergence must be a bug), and remove the buffs PPCs were given to combat lack of HSR, now that HSR is in place and working, and add stiffer heat penalties/caps, then I don't think anyone would have room to call long ranged play cheesy, because it would require a lot of skill.

Wow!!!!! Only play the way I play or don't play at all.......smh........ I never knew that a gauss round and a shot from a erppc traveled at the same speed and hit in the same location from range on a moving target.............And it's cheesy to play long range tooooooo.......just WOW!!!!

[Herr Vorragend]

How about the idea, that stacking of JJs reduces the shake? So you have to sacrifice some firepower or armor to gain a calm flight. At I almost see noone using JJ anymore. Some variety has been removed from the game, which is a little sad, too.
To all the complainers: To every idea there is a counter-idea. I personally enjoy a game with various playstyles and tactics. We all just need to find the best combination of all worlds

[Jaguar Prime]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:

Ironic as it didn't take a "better" player to jumpsnipe...but I don't care about being "better" as much as I care that there is a balance that multiple playstyles can enjoy.

A better player can do more than one thing well. And with that comes a better understanding of what is truly op and what's not. I guess it's cool to kill another's paystyle for the benefit of yours. All in the name of balance........

[Dude42]

Jaguar Prime, on 06 June 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

A better player can do more than one thing well. And with that comes a better understanding of what is truly op and what's not. I guess it's cool to kill another's paystyle for the benefit of yours. All in the name of balance........

Point-Click-Win-Poptart4Lyfe

Jaguar Prime, on 06 June 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Wow!!!!! Only play the way I play or don't play at all.......smh........ I never knew that a gauss round and a shot from a erppc traveled at the same speed and hit in the same location from range on a moving target.............And it's cheesy to play long range tooooooo.......just WOW!!!!

Now you know. And knowing is half the battle.

[blinkin]

MonkeyCheese, on 06 June 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Hey now no need to talk like that.


Im gonna post it again, this is how we FIX this entire problem, its simple remove ALL the shaking and just widen the targeting crosshairs and the cone of fire when jumpjetings (also for future masc) so that pinpoint aim is off for snipe ppc/gauss mechs but everyone else can compensate. aka poptart nerf, no sickness, lights can pewpew normaly again.

More information from my post here

OMFG! would anybody read the post i was responding to or any of the other dozens of posts i have made.

FOR THE RECORD, HERE ARE MY VIEWS ON THE SUBJECT SO PEOPLE WILL STOP TRYING TO ARGUE WITH ME ABOUT THINGS I ALREADY AGREE WITH:

• OVERALL the new jump jet effects are good AND i like them.
  
• HOWEVER the VISUAL effect associated with them (screen shake) causes people discomfort and should probably go.
  
• ALL of the aiming penalties should stay.

[Milt]

how big of an issue do you really believe pop tarting would be if they couldnt boat wpns? fix the boating and poptarting would just be another tactic. if pgi would actually make heat mismanagement be something to be feared we wouldnt need any kind of nerf to jj

[Jaguar Prime]

Dude42, on 06 June 2013 - 01:57 PM, said:

Point-Click-Win-Poptart4Lyfe

Now you know. And knowing is half the battle.

hehe, yeah, Now I know your ability to recognize sarcasm is right up there with you knowledge of this games mechanics.


Edit: I'm done, I've already quit because of the migraine inducing shake so this debate was totally pointless. Have fun with your game.

Edited by Jaguar Prime, 06 June 2013 - 02:07 PM.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

DeaconW, on 06 June 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

BT rules have an accuracy penalty for firing while jumpjetting. Your argument is invalid.

lol, you like that phrase don't you? While I'm sure you'd like to have a magical wand make things invalidade, you don't. You presume to much in your zeal.

You know what else has an accuracy penalty for firing while jumpjetting? Firing while jumpjetting. It's a lot harder than firing while flatfooted, what with all that flying through the air stuff, forward, backward, sideways, et al. Making it a skill, making it an actual skill instead of artificially deforming the shot, or making it artificially difficult would be the perfect step. This is just laziness to make some people shut up already about how poptarting has ruined the game.

Guys and gals:

It was an interesting step, but not a good one, I think. PGI doesn't realize how many people just play for the jumpjets. Now they will try to mitigate the situation by making things easier on lights under this new system. When in truth they just need to use a different a possibly more sophisticated system for aiming while jump jetting. This solution, to me, seems beneath what the game could ultimately be. Why? Because it's a digital crosshair, going haywire on your cockpit screen and we have to rationalize that it all makes sense, because...giant robots and Apollo moonrockets shake like the dickens. Really they wouldn't shake like you think for why you might think. The early stages, close to the ground, they might have back pressure and thrust effects, but what would make the display shake would be the subtle vibration going resonating up and down the mech. But even today we have a fix for that for our astronauts. The idea to strobe the display in the same resonant frequency that the thrust is causing in the structure of the mech. That would be built into the screen. Or thousand years into the future, some even more sophisticated setup for their giant frikking robots!! Are you telling me that all these mechs need monitor upgrades?!

We get the point. You want something done about jumpjet snipers. Fine. This shouldn't be the thing.

If they're going to DO this then DO it correctly, find a mechanism that makes sense, and doesn't remind me of a 16bit video game solution.

Instead of arbitrarily deciding what makes sense and what fits, based on attitude and complaints and history from OTHER mech games, make a logical and fitting reaction/situational reality for jumpsniping to be difficult. Beacuse this fix is neither logical, nor rational. It's only got practicality going for it.

[DeaconW]

Jaguar Prime, on 06 June 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

Wow!!!!! Only play the way I play or don't play at all.......smh........ I never knew that a gauss round and a shot from a erppc traveled at the same speed and hit in the same location from range on a moving target.............And it's cheesy to play long range tooooooo.......just WOW!!!!

Actually he is criticizing convergence as the problem, not the long game per se. At least that is the way I read it.

Herr Vorragend, on 06 June 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Some variety has been removed from the game, which is a little sad, too.

Dude...what game are you playing? The game just got a lot MORE variety now that the dominant "bring your jumpsniper mech" meta is gone...

Jaguar Prime, on 06 June 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

A better player can do more than one thing well. And with that comes a better understanding of what is truly op and what's not. I guess it's cool to kill another's paystyle for the benefit of yours. All in the name of balance........

That a misrepresentation of my stated opinon, but whatever you have to do to make yourself feel better...

Milt, on 06 June 2013 - 02:02 PM, said:

how big of an issue do you really believe pop tarting would be if they couldnt boat wpns? fix the boating and poptarting would just be another tactic. if pgi would actually make heat mismanagement be something to be feared we wouldnt need any kind of nerf to jj

Boating isn't the problem...perfect convergence is.