87 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Kmieciu, on 06 June 2013 - 11:53 PM, said:

Max armor values, as we all know were taken from table top game, where dice rolls were used to determine hit location.

In MWO, we use mouse: point and click to apply damage.

Every Atlas pilot knows that the Atlas has too much armor in the legs and arms (because nobody is aiming at them anyway), and too little on the torso (where everybody aims at).

The only way to fix this issue, not only for the Atlas but for every other mech, is to get rid of armor limitations per component. Keep the max armor limit, but get rid of the component limit. If someone wants to put 600 points of armor on the center torso, and 1-2 points on the other locations - let them do it!

That would increase the variety on the battlefield. Right now, I know the exact number of hits that every Atlas on the battlefield can take from my 2xAC20. Without armor limitations every enemy mech would be a surprise. Do I hit this one in the legs, arms or go for the center torso?

I would, just for sanity, still apply a "no more than 1/3 your armor can be spend on one hit location", but that's it. If someone only wants to armour his torsos, than that's his decision (and possibly arm and leg loss)

----

One thing I noticed after playing the AC/40 Jagermech for so long and switching back to the DDC for a few matches - man, handling different weapon groups and using lasers is full of drawbacks.

With the Jagermech,I shoot, and then turn away from enemy fire, so my arms and side torsos are hit. 3.5 seconds later, I swing back, aim for another salvo, and fire.

With my AC/20-1ASRM6-2LL DD-C, I was shooting the AC/2, then the LLs for a full second, and then the SRMs, and then I had 2 seconds at best where I could not look into enemy fire.

My Jagermech has an XL Engine, which makes allt hat side torso damage actually dangerous. But I can still at least show my enemy both side torsos if I don't screw up, but the Atlas - At least 2 seconds where the enemy has every opportunity to shoot at my vital spots.

And in fact, Atlai in melee can be surprisingly "easy" to crack with the AC/40 Jagermech, too. It depends a lot on the quality and loadout of the Atlas, but if he's just a little too slow, or has a bit too many LRMs, he's screwed.

---

That said - the Atlas is still pretty good. All the problems the Atlas might have as a target - the Awesome has them far worse. And the Atlas can at least bring a really strong weapon loadout and still carry the ammo and sinks needed for it.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 07 June 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Mustrum - ever tried a 4-man Boomjager lance? Everybody's running at least 80 kph with advanced seismic sensor? Those Atlai drop like flies :-)

Edited by Kmieciu, 07 June 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Kmieciu, on 07 June 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

Mustrum - ever tried a 4-man Boomjager lance? Everybody's running at least 80 kph with advanced seismic sensor? Those Atlai drop like flies :-)

I am pretty much solo only. I have no friends.

[JackPoint]

Atlas is fine, try playing an Awesome for a week then you'll understand what a bullet magnet is, it's ct is bigger than all your collected atlas models .

[Shae Starfyre]

An Assault mech, not usually a popular definition based on the read, can be defined as followed:


1.) Military . the stage of close combat in an attack.
2.) a sudden, violent attack; onslaught.

Both of which an Atlas does very well.

I would never recommend the Atlas be a point mech without the entire team being organized.

I used the term point and not assault to define the actual purpose many prescribe, by definition, the role of an Assault mech; another words, do not run foward, guns blazing (I know, I am guilty of this too, it is just too hard to resist sometimes).

Edited by Aphoticus, 07 June 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[Xie Belvoule]

The problem with the Atlas is pretty simple, and I say this as a dedicated Assault pilot and a hard core Atlas pilot, it has too much armor in the legs.

[JackPoint]

Xie Belvoule, on 07 June 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

The problem with the Atlas is pretty simple, and I say this as a dedicated Assault pilot and a hard core Atlas pilot, it has too much armor in the legs.

Agreed, they should move 10% of that leg amour to the side Torso-CT.

[StonedVet]

to highlight just how easily an atlas goes down I have video of me taking down an atlas 1 on 1 without him even knowing I was there ... in my Raven. All I used was an ERPPC and 2 ML, I was at most 300m away from him. He didn't take 1 shot at me

[Zyllos]

Non-random damage will make large, slow mechs extremely dangerous to pilot in against players who can aim.

[JackPoint]

Lowridah, on 07 June 2013 - 06:30 AM, said:

to highlight just how easily an atlas goes down I have video of me taking down an atlas 1 on 1 without him even knowing I was there ... in my Raven. All I used was an ERPPC and 2 ML, I was at most 300m away from him. He didn't take 1 shot at me

Point highlighted in this is you shouldn't be alone in an Atlas to begin with, Atlas RS is on trial atm so your going to come across new players trying them on for size.

[Wormrex]

ONly thing missing for the atlas is... FALCON PUNCH!!!!

Then it would be perfect.

Now when knockdown comes back. Atlas would be an unstoppable juggernaut.

[LordBraxton]

If SRMs were still useful

the atlas would still be king

as it stands LRMs and PPCs rule the field

so the Stalker is king

atlas is still scary in the right hands of course

[Matroid]

Steel your Life, on 06 June 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

I have seen over many months posts about how the Atlas might be underpowered. Specifically the fact that it does seem to go down pretty quick...

Anyway just wondering if there is anyone else out there that has extensive experience with the Atlas kinda seeing the same thing i am?

i agree with the original post, and i think this is how to explain it


(1) in BT, all hits are randomized as to which part of the mech they hit

- so lets just say you have to do half of the mechs armor in damage to kill him
- ie. 304 random damage will kill a 608 armor Atlas, and 116 damage to kill my 232 armor Jenner
- this means the more armor you carry, the better off you are. your size (hit box) isn't really a factor
- This makes the Atlas a huge tank walking around, and able to Assault a tactical position

(2) in MWO hits are not random, they are aimed

- however, there is a somewhat random factor correlated with speed due to aiming being harder, therefore
- Jenners (moving 138 km/h) get randomly hit
- Atlases (moving 48 km/h) get targeted at their large CT
- so the Jenner probably still takes 116 damage to kill since it's almost random, but an atlas can go down in 85 when his CT is gone (excluding internals)


At really long ranges (>450) people's aiming skill goes down and assaults will be more randomly hit, but in close range (<300) any Dual AC20 Cat/Jager can rip apart a slow-moving assault. that's why they don't seem tough, it's due to aiming, and i don't think there is a fix

Hadros

Edited by Hadros, 07 June 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[Gorgarath]

I agree with the OP, I am an atlas pilot and i play a lot of other classes and it is very clear that an atlas does not last long despite torso twisting and positioning.

I find (myself included) that people focous fire on an Atlas not because its threatning but because ITS SO EASY TO HIT so if ur gunna shoot something shoot the giant rock in the middle.

I read through all the responses and its kinda funny how the OP mentioned straight away everything people were gunna say in his OP before they said it like torso twisting. He said torso twisting doesnt really stop an Atlas from going down and he said hes a good pilot yet everyone with responses say hes having trouble cause hes not a good pilot or not torso twisting lol.

The bottom line is i think 90% of hte people posting about this post do not even own an Atlas mech let alone 3 of them maxed out and the OP does. THey all just talk abou their prospective fighting against an atlas well i fight agianst them too and they seem to drop pretty easy.

If any of you actually looked up the armor on an Atlas its only like 60 max out in front chest sides and around 80 in front chest middle. This is hardly that much more than other lighter faster smaller heavies and mediums the Hunchback gets 50 only a 10 armor diff and its way faster and smaller!!!

anyway count me on the OP side i totally agree with everything you said

[Soy]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 June 2013 - 06:00 AM, said:

I have no friends.

...bro...

[Trauglodyte]

100 tons doesn't mean indestructable.

[Lumpypants]

I see the weight classification method inaccurate. Simply because you're in an assault weight mech does not mean you are a viable at the job of assaulting. Each has their niche. Awesome are energy boats. More for support. Atlas are all-rounders. Good at, you know, assaulting. Stalkers are assault killers. Very good at killing big slow targets. Not so much when mobility is required. (I don't use PPC's/ERPPC's so let's not start THAT discussion). Highlanders are more mobile, less durable generalists. Especially now that JJ shake has been introduced.

[Shae Starfyre]

Doesn't torso twisting immitate the randomness seen in TT a little.

When I am in the zone with my Atlas, and I torso twist, expose my back, use terrain to allow my legs to get hit because I sudden lurched upwards, makes the effect seem like they are missing my CT.

Their aim is compromised to say the least.

On a side note, it also depends on the Atlas loadout, a little, which dictates your engagement perspective, to such an extent, that I find myself less likely to be cored due to early exposure, but then I have a different opinion on what assault means.

Just out of curiosity, what is the community's best number on pin-point damage that is acceptable? 20, 30, 50, 60 (not 60, 6 PPC stalker is out, and not 40, because of the Dual 20s; so that makes it less than 40 points is acceptible?).

[LethalMezzle]

Steel your Life, on 06 June 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

Ill refer back to my scout example how an entire team or half a team in some cases can direct fire at a scout for whole minutes before taking it out while an exposed Atlas is taken down in under 10 seconds. While I at least understand this concept that a scout should be hard to hit, I fail to understand why a scout should have such survivability and large end game damage statistics to go with it.

I think this is a pretty poor comparison. It's not just that Lights are hard to hit. Lights are unique in that they are the only class of mech that can actually run away from a fight. That is why they survive so long - they can swoop in and attack, then run away before anyone can really pin them down. You can't do that in an Atlas. You can't do that with most mechs in this game - have you ever tried to run away from a fight at 64 kph in a Centurion? It's a lost cause.

So as an Atlas, if you accidently get into a bad position you are totally screwed. You can't run away and even all the armour in the world won't save you from four enemies pouring it on at once. Lights can run in and out, do a little bit of damage each time and that is why they last much longer. A good Light picks his engagements carefully, and that makes him very hard to kill.

But that doesn't make the Atlas underpowered. You might not live as long as a Light because you are committed to your engagements, but if you have better aim and a good position, you have considerable staying power.

Edited by LethalMezzle, 07 June 2013 - 11:15 AM.

[Haradim]

Another thing to keep in mind, is that "tank classes" always sacrifice offensive capability as a tradeoff for their ability to absorb damage.

Are you prepared to accept a loss of hardpoints and hardpoint optimization in exchange for the ability to take enough damage for a perceptible difference to be made? You point to lights as having high effective damage absorption (which is only as effective as the enemy's lack of aim), but no light mech can carry what an Atlas can be armed with.