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Is Mm Turned Off?


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#61 Hauser

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:36 PM

View PostMokey Mot, on 08 June 2013 - 06:57 PM, said:

Once you reach this point, there are very few PuGs that match your ELO, so you are dropped against premades, and your ELO is then balanced by dropping you with noobs (lower ELO players).


Not another one....

Most of your post sounds about right. Just this one thing. The match maker is not kick you down or balance you out by putting inexperienced players on your team. The whole point of the damn thing is to keep them away from you and you away from them. That is, unless it absolutely has too to start a game.

#62 The Strange

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:54 PM

You would think so, but he has it about right from what I have seen. Your ELO isn't used on an individual basis, because you aren't fighting 1 vs 1. It uses an average team ELO rating. So you can in fact have two moderate players on one team balanced against a good player and a noob on the other.

#63 I am

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 01:02 PM

The number of people that want to pug against 4 man premades in MWO, is very very very very very very small.

Edited by I am, 09 June 2013 - 01:03 PM.


#64 Taemien

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 05:36 PM

View PostFate 6, on 08 June 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Unless only a tiny fraction of the population participates in the no-drawback-to-enter tournaments and challenges it's relatively easy to get a decent estimate of player population, and it's not very promising.


I'm thinking its a smaller fraction. Out of the people I group with, only one has participated in any of the events, and only one event that I know of so far. I don't think the event turn out is an accurate number.

Not saying the population of MWO is large. I think its rather small. But I understand why, and it should get better once CW is in. But don't ever expect it to be millions and millions. It doesn't need millions to be successful.

#65 ArmandTulsen

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:22 PM

Ah, yes, KDR: The ultimate e-peen measuring instrument.

#66 Hauser

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:48 AM

View PostThe Strange, on 09 June 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

You would think so, but he has it about right from what I have seen. Your ELO isn't used on an individual basis, because you aren't fighting 1 vs 1. It uses an average team ELO rating. So you can in fact have two moderate players on one team balanced against a good player and a noob on the other.


No. Wrong again.

It does not use the average team Elo to setup a match. The average Elo is only used after the teams have been assembled and the game is won or lost to calculate how likely that outcome was. Based on this the Elo gets adjusted (much for unexpected results, not at all for expected results).

What the match maker uses to setup a match is a fixed value. For the first match maker tries to find people around 1000 rating, the next match 1100, the next one 1200, the next 1300, ect.

Edited by Hauser, 10 June 2013 - 01:48 AM.


#67 PanzerMagier

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 02:06 AM

Have to say, regardless of the speculation here.

I've been playing since CB.
80%+ of my games, I land in the stop scores of the 3 best pilots of the match.
Why am I still, even today, dropping with players who are having "my first game"? I understand you have trolls and whatnot
But, god, I keep seeing trial mechs in my games and people who don't even know how to set weapons groups...

Edited by PanzerMagier, 10 June 2013 - 02:07 AM.


#68 VXJaeger

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:36 AM

View PostMonkeyCheese, on 08 June 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

As for trial mechs, well they are everywhere, vets must get some kind of sick kick from driving them.

Vets just get a good excuse to play naked, as usual. Not that they need one, but still.

#69 Lupin

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 05:29 AM

I think this is the 3rd or 4th topic on the subject of match making there is clearly something wrong/broken.

Time for answers PGI, less you drive away more players.

#70 Albert Meyburgh

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:22 AM

Hello!

What has changed?! Oh look something did change! (section 'Match Making Update' in the May 21 patch notes)

I'm a programmer so I can't explain purpose of this type of change, but I can re-iterate the technical aspect, in that new players now have a trend to win more over lose for their first 25 games.

The matchmaker tries to trend everyone to 50/50 win loss (except for the aforementioned new-player-elo-thing) as per the whole idea behind elo. It doesn't care about kills/deaths/damage done/etc... that stuff is part of systems completely separate from matchmaking!

The matchmaker tries to get homogeneously mirrored teams when it can, but it only has 2 minutes to do that before a timeout happens, so if someone's been waiting for awhile without perfect matches coming along, then the matchmaker will form the best heterogeneous match it can! Of course everyone would quixotically prefer perfectly mirrored matches, but that's the best that can be done in that 2 minutes of waiting.

How can this be improved? Well, either you need more people queuing up per minute (in order to increase the probability of perfect matches being formed), or you need a longer timeout in order to increase the consistency of the team compositions.

Or maybe you can implement time travel where players from different time frames could match up against each other... your pre-made could play itself for ultimate balance! but of course the losing team would still blame the matchmaker in that case :( I KID!

All that being said, I love hearing thoughts on the matter (try to at least stay positive and civil though?), so keep on playing, and keep on posting!

#71 Stoicblitzer

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 09:34 AM

View Postsrccoder, on 10 June 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

new players now have a trend to win more over lose for their first 25 games.

why would you need to do that if the MM is working as intended™? Also, how can you have players win more unless you have identified something that causes more wins? If that's true, then you can probably make people lose more often also. When I say you I mean PGI coders.

#72 Taemien

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:14 AM

View Postsrccoder, on 10 June 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

Hello!

What has changed?! Oh look something did change! (section 'Match Making Update' in the May 21 patch notes)

I'm a programmer so I can't explain purpose of this type of change, but I can re-iterate the technical aspect, in that new players now have a trend to win more over lose for their first 25 games.

The matchmaker tries to trend everyone to 50/50 win loss (except for the aforementioned new-player-elo-thing) as per the whole idea behind elo. It doesn't care about kills/deaths/damage done/etc... that stuff is part of systems completely separate from matchmaking!

The matchmaker tries to get homogeneously mirrored teams when it can, but it only has 2 minutes to do that before a timeout happens, so if someone's been waiting for awhile without perfect matches coming along, then the matchmaker will form the best heterogeneous match it can! Of course everyone would quixotically prefer perfectly mirrored matches, but that's the best that can be done in that 2 minutes of waiting.

How can this be improved? Well, either you need more people queuing up per minute (in order to increase the probability of perfect matches being formed), or you need a longer timeout in order to increase the consistency of the team compositions.


I've been trying to explain just this since ELO came out. People have been saying its bugged ever since its conception, but I have stated many times that we simply need more players in the queue. No amount of coding can make players better than they are.

Maybe now that one of you guys have said it, the masses will finally hear it.

Didn't know the matchmaker went on for two minutes though, thought it was 45s to a minute. Now that I think about it, if we're getting more Trial mechs in most matches, that means more new players are joining up. There's something to throw a wrench into the theories of the doomgloomers. They can't prove that people are leaving, but we sure have some evidence (though circumstantial, which is better than what the doomgloomers have) that some are joining.

#73 Albert Meyburgh

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:24 AM

View PostStoicblitzer, on 10 June 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

why would you need to do that if the MM is working as intended™?


Like I said in the first part of the sentence "I'm a programmer so I can't explain purpose of this type of change"... anything I could say here would just be speculation on my part so that's probably not appropriate. Though I have many secret theories!

View PostStoicblitzer, on 10 June 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Also, how can you have players win more unless you have identified something that causes more wins? If that's true, then you can probably make people lose more often also


How can players win/lose more? As stated in the patch notes, there is an offset on new player elo into the matchmaking system when a new player queues up, so as far as the matchmaker knows, they've experienced more losses than wins, and so it tries to compensate them back to 50/50. You could apply the reverse logic to create a loss bias. Elo is a zero sum game, for someone to lose someone has to win, for someone's elo to go up, someone's has to go down, if you take everyone in the game's elo ratings, add them all up, and divide by the amount of players, the resulting average will be the seed of 1300. New players are seeded at 1300 which means that if you offset them into matchmaking at 1100, then they've really got a statistical 200 point edge on their team. When they are no longer a new player, then they matchmake at their 'real' elo, so their team balance edge vanishes!

#74 Exoth3rmic

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:27 AM

The only changes that were made were to the new user experience, and Chemie not being a new user and presumeably of an above average Elo should remain unaffected (I assume!).

With the way the MM rewards a player for their team win or loss I do not see how the MM is specifically and intentionally trending players towards a 50:50 win loss rather than a 50:50 win loss being the resultant effect of MM mechanics at work for the average player.

The generally accepted notion that the playerbase as a whole will have a certain average of "skill" will have a large proportion of the playerbase falling in or around a 50:50 win loss without MM help in any event over time. We can see this later on.

That is to say that seeing a cohort of players with a 50:50 win loss is not to say the MM is currently working as intended if the vast population of the server is proficient at playing, but has only a tiny % of godly players.

If we take a look at the bell curve (see below) that was released showing the spread of players Elo, we can extrapolate that there are indeed only a small % of players on the playerbase who are to be considered as having a considerably better chance of impacting a match than the average player (the high Elo players).

Then consider that prior to the Elo adjustments, when the amount of games played impacted your Elo, it was still considered at that time that the Elo "was a perfect bell curve".

View PostBryan Ekman, on 08 April 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

Ask the Devs #35
cjmurphy87: Would you consider releasing some data on elo? In particular I'd love to see a frequency distribution of the various elo scores, I'm curios whether the community has formed a bell curve, or if there are bands centered around several different modes.
A: There is a perfect bell curve. We are considering however, dropping the entry point ELO value for new players. This will help new players start at an easier play bracket and allow them to quickly move into their appropriate ELO bracket.


Obviously, we now know that the bell curve itself as it apparently existed at that time could only highlight what % of players had played the most games - presumeably not even looking like the perfect bell curve when applied to the Elo mechanic at all or there was a missing metric for it at that time.

As per the adjustments made we then have this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2265319

Posted Image

Coming to today, we can see that now the vast server majority at the time of this graph has an Elo score below that of the entry level of 1300 (adjusted to 1350 now but 1300 at the time) - i'd guestimate 70% but someone else can do the actual counting.

This means that unless there is a significant portion of players online within the top 30% then any player within that bracket is having a disproportionate effect on the win loss ratio of any team he is then dropped on made up of the bottom 70%.

I suspect a lot of the top 30% drop in premades, which might explain the beating down of the bottom 70% below the entry level Elo point.

As should be obvious, only 50% of the server population can be considered below average so we can see from the graph that the difference beyond the point of average and that of highly proficient is quite large, as is the difference in the number of games the top 30% play compared to the bottom 70%; tis what I assume is pushing the Elo down from a starting point.

If it was the intention with MM to push players towards a 50:50 win ratio then this graph shows the wait time has to be pushed up for the top 30%.

As w/l in this current arena game really means very little without something to play for, I suspect top Elo playered don't mind it not being fiddled with so long as they're getting a game.

However, what they do mind is dropping vs trials who, generally speaking, will have a very small % of winning or even understanding what it is that's going on when they are getting pummeled by a mech that doesn't seem to shut down.

It's a bad new user experience too.

Edited by Exoth3rmic, 10 June 2013 - 10:36 AM.


#75 SgtKinCaiD

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:30 AM

View PostTaemien, on 10 June 2013 - 10:14 AM, said:

Didn't know the matchmaker went on for two minutes though, thought it was 45s to a minute. Now that I think about it, if we're getting more Trial mechs in most matches, that means more new players are joining up. There's something to throw a wrench into the theories of the doomgloomers. They can't prove that people are leaving, but we sure have some evidence (though circumstantial, which is better than what the doomgloomers have) that some are joining.


I must repeat myself then :
This is not a surge of new players, it's the opposite : a lot of players are not playing MWO right now due to the JJ shake (and maybe the nerf of poptarts), search the forum about "motion sickness" and you'll see.

This phenomenon is more noticeable now thanks to that, but several players, me included, have been suffering from this, since the introduction of ELO ratings :
http://mwomercs.com/...w-when-to-quit/
http://mwomercs.com/...uch-a-wide-net/
etc.

PGI doesn't want to acknowledge that the number of players in MWO is not sufficent for the ELO system to work properly right now. They were forced to change several times the MM in order to lessen the waiting time, which is a good indication on the problem. Now it appears to widen even more its search as it does not take the mech tonnage into account anymore :
http://mwomercs.com/...ctions-anymore/

The MM was better without the ELO. We wanted a basic CW (a small lobby to prepare and launch 8v8) and PGI threw the ELO ratings in order to keep bad PUGStompers at bay ! Take that big meanies ! But guess what ? Players are still getting stomped except that it's the MM who decide now who will get stomped or not.

#76 Stoicblitzer

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:32 AM

View Postsrccoder, on 10 June 2013 - 10:24 AM, said:

so it tries to compensate them back to 50/50.

how is this accomplished? this is the holy grail for us.

#77 Albert Meyburgh

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 10:53 AM

View PostStoicblitzer, on 10 June 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:

how is this accomplished? this is the holy grail for us.


the elo value that a player has, is an attempt to make a correlation to that player's probability of winning a match in relation to another player. every time people play against each other we get a new data point to feed into the correlation. when you lose more games than you win in games that were roughly elo balanced, we know that your elo on our end is actually wrong and so we lower it. repeat this process, and eventually your elo will be statistically, relative to other players, accurate in predicting whether or not your win/loss ratio will be roughly 50/50... when this happens, your elo is pretty stable and doesn't change much. if you join mwo as a mw series veteran and we seed you at 1300, and you play against someone that's never played a mw type game before, then the 1300:1300 is probably wrong in your favour! so the 'veteran' will win, win win, his elo goes up up up, and eventually his w:l ratio trends to 50:50. this is just how elo works, so if you google elo you can find many explanations that are probably quite a bit better articulated than this.

#78 Mark Brandhauber

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:47 PM

but with cheese caliber mechs in the game which are low skill mechs, how do you compensate for this factor?

#79 Chemie

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:35 PM

View Postsrccoder, on 10 June 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:


the elo value that a player has, is an attempt to make a correlation to that player's probability of winning a match in relation to another player. explanations that are probably quite a bit better articulated than this.


First thanks for at least chiming in here. Nice to see developer engagement.

My question; What does telemetry tell you? Is my observation that higher ELO players are being matched against new players/trial mechs etc real? I would assume you could look at the standard deviation of the match ELOs to see that the variance has increased? Or just run a count of "bad/extreme ELO matching"? or in games with 4 high ELO< how often are there trial mechs? or recruit with <25 games?

As I stated, I have not seen this imbalance in MM since ELO was first introduced so something has changed.

Thanks.

(PS How about chaning the queues to be premade and pug; that way we COULD drop against our own lancemates of equal ELO).

Edited by Chemie, 10 June 2013 - 01:36 PM.


#80 Petroshka

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Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:46 PM

You have a W/L of 3.75? holy shazmuffin the Elo system is B R O K E N !





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