1263 replies to this topic

[Blue Splint]

My opinions:

SSRM change: Good.
MG buff: OK.
Flamer buff: buff how much it makes you heat up, not how much damage you take. Or maybe decrease the heat effect on the mech using the flamer.
LPL nerf: Yes it's a nerf in my opinion. LPL's are already somewhat underused, and this decreases the damage/heat to a level below LLas. Why? Only reason to use LPL's now is higher alpha and lower beam duration, except they are a shorter-range weapon, indicating that they are brawler-type weapons, indicating that they need to have good DPS/HPS, which they no longer do.
Heat damage at high levels: Good idea. I agree with the 125-130% numbers people are suggesting however.
Heat penalty: Seems too complicated for its balancing intentions. I think you should address individual weapons instead. I have long been in favor of a decrease of PPC speed, for example.

[Karl Split]

Dont like the fix to boating one bit. It just sounds like a bolted on fix and a complicated one at that. Reduce convergence on the weapons and add a cone of fire that decreases when you stop moving it will fix the problem of sniping without adding a realy weird fix AND it will give a reason for targeting computers to be added later

Edited by Karl Split, 12 June 2013 - 12:58 PM.

[Feircus Blacktooth]

How about not being able to customize mechs? What's the point in variants if you are just going to change the loadout? For most mechs you have three to four choices. Learn to pilot those. No more boats. No more Alphas. Just make the Omnis able to change their loadouts. It would be more canon to BTech.

[Ngamok]

MaddMaxx, on 12 June 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Well, a Wobbly table is, inherently, unbalanced. Doh!

[jozkhan]

With just 6 or 7 patches (at most) to go until launch theres really no luxury here in terms of microtweaking as has gone before. Let alone messing with such huge issues as alpha strike restrictions, heat changes, individual weapon and mech chassis boating variant restrictions: it's very messy and totally opaque to new players which can only have one outcome - new players will NOT be retained.

Do IGP / PGI even read the new player forum? Theres alot of totally lost people with totally wrong ideas about how things work as it is. And apparently the silent majority dont even use the forums so must just muddle through on their own - or not.

Why are medium lasers suddenly in the firing line for an issue about PPCs anyway? You've gone way off course there.

Why are light and medium mechs in the firing line for an issue with assault boats? er compass check people!

Pulse Lasers have been pretty much abandoned by the community for most of open beta and you are making them less preferable? eh?

For the record I drive over 20 mechs of all classes and tend to buck the trend, I currently dont have a single PPC on any of my mechs and yet I get to suffer cuz you cant fix what has been a major problem (PPCs) for ages now?

The major problem with this latest round of 'balancing' is that it looks set to break much more than it 'fixes'

[SirLANsalot]

Feircus, on 12 June 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

How about not being able to customize mechs? What's the point in variants if you are just going to change the loadout? For most mechs you have three to four choices. Learn to pilot those. No more boats. No more Alphas. Just make the Omnis able to change their loadouts. It would be more canon to BTech.

wish there was a down vote....

This is Mechwarrior, don't like it? Tough, then **** and go play Tactics, but wait, that has customization too! Well guss your stuck with Megamech then.

Customization is the BIGGEST draw TO this game, and is why stock mechs ALWAYS and FOREVER more will SUCK in these real time based games. Why? Stock is made for turn based gameplay, where heat dissipates by turn. Even if you ported over the system to account for real time, the mechs themselves would change to account for that.

This is why nutjobs like you who want this to be pure TT, are a very very small group. Go play your TT on the Table, leave computer gaming alone.

[Blackadder]

I skipped the last 10 pages, but if PGI really wants to put in a bandaid fix. Dump the idea of heat boat mechanic and introduce a weapon reload/recharge mechanic based on number of weapons fired. Put weapons in tiers or classes, and for each weapon over 2 increase the reload time till the player can fire again. It could be averaged out so that firing 2 weapons from one tier, and 3 weapons from a 2nd tier, has a shorter reload then firing 5 weapons from the larger tier/class.

This solution should promote the following:

1) allow players to continue to alpha strike, but force a strategic and tactical weakness that can be exploited by opponents
2) Promote firing in smaller weapons groups, which spreads damage, and still rewards skill
3) Penalize the larger damage weapon systems that need it most when fired in groups
4) No unjust punishment for mechs carrying 1 large scale weapon, or mediums/lights using LL/PPC etc
5) smaller delay for smaller weapons, medium mechs and light mechs have less of an issue vs proposed heat change
6) close the gap between high damage builds and DPS builds
7) increase teamwork needed to disable opposing mechs and protect your own team
8) Reintroduce brawling and prolong battles creating more of a potential slugfest for teams

Example( delays are for illustration only, PGI would need to figure out actual delays based on balancing)
Stalker 4 PPC + 2 SSRM
4 second reload time
Alpha Strike : 4 second reload + 4 second delay from PPC + .5 second delay from SSRM = 8.5 second reload
3 PPC : 4 second reload + 3 second delay = 7 second reload
2 PPC 4 second reload + 0 second delay = 4 second reload
2 PPC + 2 SSRM: 4 second reload + .5 second reload = 4.5 second reload
2 SSRM: 3.5 second reload + 0 second delay = 3.5 second reload
chain fire: no change to current mechanic

Edited by Blackadder, 12 June 2013 - 04:34 PM.

[Hackintosh]

s-srm sounds good.

flame/machine guns: ok but don't let them do to much armor damage, I'm already seeing more people using machine guns with the last buff

LPL I would leave alone since it's all ready runs to hot, not many people use those because of the limited range at 300 m, the higher dmg is nice but the extra heat will just make more people use PPC

The 150% dmg from heat should start at 110 - 125%

The multiple weapon fire penalty in heat isn't a good idea, just doesn't make sense. Who will be in charge of what weapon gets what penalty? just be another headache of all the people complaining of this and that.

[Demosthones]

kuangmk11, on 12 June 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

You're main idea is to nerf assaults because they are assaults. My sarcastic reply was to nerf lights because they are lights. The problem is the high heat threshold and lack of heat penalty to begin with. The weapon type shouldn't enter into it.

I can't believe I am responding to you.. but what the heck I got 14 min till I am off of work. You are not reading my posts. You saw someting you could jump on and disreguarded the rest. You are hanging onto your flimsy point as the ground you stand on is eroding away.

I am not nerfing assaults. I am nerfing assualts that boat. Are we worried about light, mediums, heavies boating? NOPE, not so much. I supplied a possible fix for the current state of the meta game as I see it.

This back and forth between us is pointless. I come to these boards to get other peoples opinions not to bash people over the head with trololol. I realize there is a lot of venom and people on these forums that live to be an elitist. However I refuse to do so.

Respond again if you want. I have decided to ignore you.

Edited by Demosthones, 12 June 2013 - 01:54 PM.

[Culler]

Food for thought, what happens when people simply mix PPCs and ERPPCs to get around the issue? I always bring an ERPPC on my PPC builds to hit people up close and really far anyway. Might want to extend the heat penalty to include all 'big' weaponry in one category (anything that does more than 6 points of damage) and 'small' weaponry in another (anything that does 6 damage or less.) Then you could say 4 big weapons is too many and 7 small weapons is too many, for example.

Also, many of the problem sniper builds are mixes of PPCs and gauss. The proposed changes would simply force more people into that archetype.

For example, an Atlas RS with 3 PPCs, 1 ERPPC, and a gauss is doing 55 damage alphas and none of its weaponry exceeds the limit proposed, effectively missing one of the most effective sniper builds entirely. Even if you make the limit 2 PPCs you can run with 2 of each type and dodge the penalty. I appreciate that PGI is trying to address the issue, but the proposed change is overly complicated and ineffective at addressing anything other than pug trolling builds.

Other ideas might include weapon hardpoint size restrictions, damage-gated heat issues (more than 30 damage at once) etc.

[Ragnar Darkmane]

What a great fix. The devs even TOLD the 6x PPC abusers how they can avoid the new balancing changes....
Isn't that a bit counter-productive?

Edited by Ragnar Darkmane, 12 June 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Felio]

I do not think this will be effective at limiting high-alpha builds.

For starters, 6 medium lasers or 3 PPCs is still a lot of firepower.

Secondly, stacking different weapons will still allow for one-hit kills, or close to it. Builds may not be as symetrical, but they'll still pack a wallop. Players are creative.

Finally, using a macro or quick fingers to delay firing by 0.5 seconds isn't all that different from a single alpha strike.

I know you want to give people as much freedom with their builds as possible, but you need to be a lot tougher here.

Edited by Felio, 12 June 2013 - 02:05 PM.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

AC40 is not particularly overpowered and needs no adjustment. It suffers from short range, relatively slow projectile speed compared to all other ballistics and the least ammo per ton of any weapon in the game. Once 12 v 12 enters the fray, that ammo dependency will really hurt the build compared to energy boats.

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 12 June 2013 - 02:06 PM.

[Conga Whiplash]

Ok, I'm confused. With respect to firing multiple weapons of the same type WHY are you trying to craft a mechanic to deal with a system that already has a mechanic in place? You fire 6 PPCs, your heat sinks dissipate the heat at a specific rate. That's it. If you fire MORE than a specific number of a specific weapon then your heat sinks magically are less effective? I don't even run an Assault and if someone wants to boat 6 PPCs for their build, that's fine with me. If you have a problem with the PPC, then address the weapon directly because the whole idea stinks quite frankly.

Overheat Damage sounds good but you should be looking at 125% or so; 150% is too high.

Adjusting the Pulse Laser mechanic for 'balancing' will just kill LPLs (which are technically underused as it is).

SSRMs changes sound good but I think MGs are about right and Flamers are designed to heat up an opponent so increasing damage seems off base.

Btw, where's my Champion Hunch that will (if you make these changes) require you to NOT Alpha with a Mech that is specifically designed to use an all ML loadout?

Edited by Conga Whiplash, 12 June 2013 - 02:09 PM.

[Felio]

Heat from flamers should award C-bills/XP.

[Havok1978]

Victor Morson, on 12 June 2013 - 12:17 PM, said:

You're right, that's not a Frakenmech. It's just a bad one.

Seriously, LPLs are crappy (and apparently needing a nerf by the bizarre logic in the OP).

oh its not 3 ppc's and a guass so it must be a bad build.. right.. do you use anything but 3 ppc's and a gauss? lemme guess.. 4-6 ppc's? LoL
get a life.. your builds are a one trick ponies plain and simple, all you know how to do in this game is alpha pro... cant wait for this patch cuz all those eggs you have in one basket are gonna break...

[Deathlike]

Havok1978, on 12 June 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

oh its not 3 ppc's and a guass so it must be a bad build.. right.. do you use anything but 3 ppc's and a gauss? lemme guess.. 4-6 ppc's? LoL
get a life.. your builds are a one trick ponies plain and simple, all you know how to do in this game is alpha pro... cant wait for this patch cuz all those eggs you have in one basket are gonna break...

These changes go beyond builds.. if you think this will truly change the situation, it'll only remove people who are complete newbies to the system... those that have a clue will still be using it w/o changing too much or going to the next best thing... which ultimately changes nothing.

So, if you think you'll be happy about it, prepare to be immensely disappointed.

Edited by Deathlike, 12 June 2013 - 02:13 PM.

[FupDup]

Havok1978, on 12 June 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

oh its not 3 ppc's and a guass so it must be a bad build.. right.. do you use anything but 3 ppc's and a gauss? lemme guess.. 4-6 ppc's? LoL
get a life.. your builds are a one trick ponies plain and simple, all you know how to do in this game is alpha pro... cant wait for this patch cuz all those eggs you have in one basket are gonna break...

Actually, the ERPPC (Gauss to a lesser extent because of explodability and size) is effective at all ranges and roles. Jack of all trades and a master of everything.


Also, the patch only harms the 4 ERPPC Stalker (6 PPC Stalkers already were outclassed by 4 ERPPC). Everything else with 2-3 ERPPC + 1 Gauss is literally not affected whatsoever by the heat changes because you need at least 4 PPCs to get the penalties (see developer post).

Edited by FupDup, 12 June 2013 - 02:14 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Blackadder, on 12 June 2013 - 01:26 PM, said:

I skipped the last 10 pages, but if PGI really wants to put in a bandaid fix. Dump the idea of heat and introduce a weapon reload/recharge based on number of weapons fired. Put weapons in tiers or classes, and for each weapon over 2 increase the reload time till the player can fire again. It could be averaged out so that firing 2 weapons from one tier, and 3 weapons from a 2nd tier, has a shorter reload then firing 5 weapons from the larger tier/class.

This solution should promote the following:

1) allow players to continue to alpha strike, but force a strategic and tactical weakness that can be exploited by opponents
2) Promote firing in smaller weapons groups, which spreads damage, and still rewards skill
3) Penalize the larger damage weapon systems that need it most when fired in groups
4) No unjust punishment for mechs carrying 1 large scale weapon, or mediums/lights using LL/PPC etc
5) smaller delay for smaller weapons, medium mechs and light mechs have less of an issue vs proposed heat change
6) close the gap between high damage builds and DPS builds
7) increase teamwork needed to disable opposing mechs and protect your own team
8) Reintroduce brawling and prolong battles creating more of a potential slugfest for teams

Example( delays are for illustration only, PGI would need to figure out actual delays based on balancing)
Stalker 4 PPC + 2 SSRM
4 second reload time
Alpha Strike : 4 second reload + 4 second delay from PPC + .5 second delay from SSRM = 8.5 second reload
3 PPC : 4 second reload + 3 second delay = 7 second reload
2 PPC 4 second reload + 0 second delay = 4 second reload
2 PPC + 2 SSRM: 4 second reload + .5 second reload = 4.5 second reload
2 SSRM: 3.5 second reload + 0 second delay = 3.5 second reload
chain fire: no change to current mechanic

What? Remove heat altogether???

[Splitpin]

Complicated solution on top of complicated solution, oh those poor servers. The calculations required for a single shot are getting just plain silly. The problem isn't boats, it's allowing, encouraging FOTM lances to bloat boats. To have a base system of heat per weapon and required heat sinks to deal with that, then have to have another layer of penalty to deal with multiples of same weapon denies the validity of the base system. Then having variants of the same weapons being a simple workaround to the complex system renders the whole thing useless.

Edited by Splitpin, 12 June 2013 - 02:26 PM.