1263 replies to this topic

[LoveLost85]

ok, so...."heat...blah blah blah...150%..blahblah...boating...blahblahblahblah" AKA nothings changed.

[MangoBogadog]

Skimming through this it seems almost everyone agrees that 150% is too high. Im interested to see if these feedback threads get listened to.

Personally I think 120% would be much better.

Also, weapon boating design by chassis sounds way over complicated. would have been better to have just put in a proper hard point system where you can't put AC20's where machine guns were supposed to be or PPC's where medium lasers were meant.

[Volt Corsair]

I can't stop laughing at the PPC heat scaling. That is the most beautiful thing I've ever read.

[Arkatrex]

Hey guys. Try to think one or two minutes before post something.
Why they set the PPC limit to 3?

Easy answer:
A mech like the Awesome which is build to use 3 PPC would be affected in the stock version.

The problem is not that the players use 3 ppc, the problem is that the players use 4 or 6 ppc at the same time, what damaged any mech heavily.

The other thing: JJ shake.
No, this should be not removed. That's a must have feature.

You are playing MWO. That's a mech simulation. Not any of your favorite call of robot action game.
I'll have to say...wait...it's coming up.... deal with it.

And i'm happy with this SIMULATION.

[AndyHill]

Arkatrex, on 15 June 2013 - 11:37 PM, said:

Hey guys. Try to think one or two minutes before post something.
Why they set the PPC limit to 3?

Easy answer:
A mech like the Awesome which is build to use 3 PPC would be affected in the stock version.

The problem is not that the players use 3 ppc, the problem is that the players use 4 or 6 ppc at the same time, what damaged any mech heavily.

http://www.sarna.net...arhawk#Armament
http://www.sarna.net...ilator#Variants (ANH-1E)

Edited by AndyHill, 16 June 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[Arkatrex]

AndyHill, on 16 June 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...arhawk#Armament
http://www.sarna.net...ilator#Variants (ANH-1E)

What do you want to tell me with this examples?
They're very very out of the timeline and nobody knows if they will get into the game. Thematic Unseen/Reseen.

Stay at the present timeline and gameplay please.

Edited by Arkatrex, 16 June 2013 - 01:23 AM.

[AndyHill]

They are both well known 'mechs, I could probably find more with similar boat loadouts. Also, I don't quite understand your point about timelines, since both 'mechs exist and are in operation in the Inner Sphere region in 3050, which is supposedly the year we're living at the moment.

Also, neither of them are unseen 'mechs, so I really don't seem to get the point.

Edited by AndyHill, 16 June 2013 - 02:11 AM.

[Arkatrex]

Okay, i'll try an other explaination:

It does exist mech variants which can handle 3 or 4 ppc (stock) because of it's cooling structure.
For example the Awesome.

I'll think you are with me that ppc's do generate a huge amount of heat, right ?
Well... If an Awesome shoot them at the same time, it generates a huge amount of heat.

But the cooling structure can handle it. One time, maybe two times.
But the heat is too much at this time, that the mech pilot would be collapsed.
So the pilot have to shoot the ppc as a chain to prevent this amount of heat.

A stalker, which was never designed for carrying 6 ppc, have to be to explode while shoot all six ppc at the same time.

And if any mech can carry 4 ppc in stock variant, the amount by shooting all four ppc simultanous is much greater as by firing 3 ppc (which generates still a huge amount of heat) got that malus.

You can be happy that PGI is not using that heat / risk table of mwtactics.
Any of these boats would be damaged or selfkilled in the first minutes of the game.

[Wieland]

After TAG and UAC/5 another system that favors macro use.

[AndyHill]

Arkatrex, on 16 June 2013 - 03:04 AM, said:

Okay, i'll try an other explaination:

It does exist mech variants which can handle 3 or 4 ppc (stock) because of it's cooling structure.
For example the Awesome.

I'll think you are with me that ppc's do generate a huge amount of heat, right ?
Well... If an Awesome shoot them at the same time, it generates a huge amount of heat.

But the cooling structure can handle it. One time, maybe two times.
But the heat is too much at this time, that the mech pilot would be collapsed.
So the pilot have to shoot the ppc as a chain to prevent this amount of heat.

A stalker, which was never designed for carrying 6 ppc, have to be to explode while shoot all six ppc at the same time.

And if any mech can carry 4 ppc in stock variant, the amount by shooting all four ppc simultanous is much greater as by firing 3 ppc (which generates still a huge amount of heat) got that malus.

You can be happy that PGI is not using that heat / risk table of mwtactics.
Any of these boats would be damaged or selfkilled in the first minutes of the game.

I responded to the original point that the PPC limit is at 3, because Awesome carries 3 in stock configuration. I showed you two 'mechs that have four PPCs in stock configuration, which makes the limit of 3 quite arbitrary. What the entire system proposed by PGI will be.

As for being able to handle firing the PPCs, ANH-1E has 41 heat sinks making it possible for it to fire its 4 PPCs continuously at will and the Warhawk has 20 double heat sinks to allow it to do the same (except that it has cER PPCs, which generate much more heat, but also do more damage). So compared to for example the Awesome - which is used as a base for the 3 PPC rule - the ANH-1E has better cooling for its 4 PPCs.

So my point remains that the 3 PPC maximum rule is arbitrary and pointless if it's based on stock configurations not being punished.

However, that point is slightly pointless, since I believe the entire proposed system is pointless and the abovementioned is just one symptom of its pointlessness. Which is why the discussion here is so prolonged and active in the first place.

[Arkatrex]

Maybe the gamedesigners have to choose an other way.

The most way i would like are the option to up and downgrade only one techlevel.
For example:

Med Laser -> Small or Large Laser / ER Large Laser / Large Pulse Laser
SRM2 -> SRM4 or LRM5
MG (Catapult K2 for example) -> AC2
PPC / ER PPC -> Large or ER Large Laser / Large Pulse Laser
AC5 / UAC5 -> AC2 or AC10
Gauss -> AC20 (+- same level) or AC10; Same for AC20.

Boating with high damage weapons will be impossible and stays in the normal range (Jagermech could be upgraded max to AC10 and not to Gauss / AC20 like now).

The most mechs have variants which can take one favorite weapon (Cicada with the PPC for example).

That will give the game a good mix between all mechs / their variants. And that boating problem will no more exist.

And everyone who wants to play a 3 PPC boat must be play (at the moment) the Awesome (with all positive and negative sides)

Edited by Arkatrex, 16 June 2013 - 06:44 AM.

[Hayashi]

Honestly, it would make more sense to keep the max number of weapons rule specific to each chassis. While 6 medium lasers on a hunchback sounds reasonable, 6 medium lasers on a JR7-F isn't very reasonable. And while the Awesome was meant to hold 3 PPCs, the Stalker generally didn't hold PPCs at all.

It'd give the chassis a little flavour if the limits were tweaked according to each type, as opposed to being a global limit. As it is it blanket-punishes most of the heavier chassis far more than the lighter chassis.

And 150% is too high. The only way I can think of getting there is to fire a 6 PPC alpha at 85+% heat. Anywhere between 110 and 130 makes more sense, though I'd prefer it be kept at 110. Put this limit too high, the mechanism never triggers. Put this limit too low, the shutdown mechanic becomes pointless.

I agree with earlier posters though that it makes more sense from a gameplay point of view to reduce the efficiency of heat sinks when a high heat alpha is fired for a certain amount of time, rather than to add bonus heat. Coupled with a lower heat limit we might see a real chance of mechs blowing up from overheat without mashing the override button first.

Edited by Hayashi, 16 June 2013 - 06:41 AM.

[Toothless]

I find it helps to listen to the Benny Hill theme song every time I read PGI posts.

[Corison]

I am sure this was discussed in the 53 pages.. but in the off chance it wasn't.

Rather than these silly tweaks to fix boating, how about you fix the core issue?

Battletech was never balanced for pinpoint aiming of weapons. It seems like the system is very easy to fix.

1) Add an uncertainty range to when you shoot like in some shooters. If your sitting still at 0 heat you might hit anywhere in this area () but if your running hot and jumping this area (.....) for example.
2) Weapons diverge in the above area on a per weapon basis. If you fire 8 ml's with a wide range, your not going to hit the same location unless your at 0 meters.
3) Adjust the uncertainty area based on speed, heat, and stability.
4) Why your at it.. slow down the mechs max speed as your heat level goes up.

This fixes most of the problems introduced without horking over the game. Good aim still gets you close, but the exact location is semi random as it should be. Then you just have to tweak LRM's similar to SSRM changes and have them lock onto random locations instead of the CT.

[Slash Beastleo]

I believe the delay for the heat penalty should be increased to 1 second, I dont think 0,5 second would make a real difference. It has to be tested first, obviuously, maybe I'm wrong.

[focuspark]

<read the announcement, haven't read any responses>

The heat penalty for stacking sounds incredibly confusing. Some mechs will have the penalty but others won't? Some will start the penalty at a lower number than others?

So from what I'm hearing: it's a complete crap shoot as to if you've gimped yourself or not with your mech loadout unless you really dig into the minutiae?

While I could be incorrect in my reading of the announcement. I no longer have the faith in Paul and team to get this done in a remotely sane fashion. While I love the concept of the game and art is spectacular, the game design direction has been poor to say the least. Botched design of ECM, SSRM vs SRM, and the whole weapon lock on thing has made the game... well, it's made me disappointed that I spent money on it. Now with this hack at "doing something about boating" which should be restated as "a hack so that we don't need fix core mechanics or balance weapons" is pretty much the nail in the coffin.

I'll check back in occasionally, but I'll likely not bother playing and I sure as hell am not spending any more money on this game. Unfortunately really had my hopes up there for a while.

Edited by focuspark, 16 June 2013 - 08:56 AM.

[Slash Beastleo]

Mechs that are supposed to stack certain weapons (from the original design conception, I think) won't have that much penalty on those weapons, mechs that aren't supposed to stack some certain weapons on the other hand, will get a penalty. It's not that hard to understand and I think. I like it from a balance perspective. I think if you have at least some brain you will be able to manage the weapons in order to avoid the penalty, you just have to avoid excess.

[HRR Insanity]

Victor Morson, on 13 June 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

Every problem people have with "alphas" would go away if assaults made up less than 20% of the battlefield. Nobody is going to get mad about the kinds of alphas that Trebs & Centurions can deliver, accuracy be damned.

Incorrect. If only mediums are allowed, the medium with the biggest alpha will be 'overpowered' because it will still kill other 'Mechs faster because of pinpoint damage.

[Tresch]

not really digging the current boating counter. Was thinking of something a little more general. The idea I had was introducing the concept of heat transport "bandwidth" heat goes to your heatsinks to be dissipated, but building up too much heat too quickly could overwhelm the heat transport system of the mech, causing some heat to saturate deeper into the chassis. So, each mech would have a transport bandwidth, based on the chassis or variant. if chain firing, it's never an issue, but if you make quick burts of heat, such as in an alpha, any heat that overflows the heat bandwidth becomes "deep heat" which takes longer to dissipate. Or, to simplify the system, it simply becomes amplified. It's actually not too different than the current suggested system, but it's a general system that applies to heat, not to specific weapon types. Doing an alpha of 3LL and 3PPC would have penalties just like 6PPCs

There's nothing wrong with boating, but something that gives a price to be paid for big alphas is a neat idea.

Also, it wouldn't affect smaller weapons with high fire rates as much, which makes sense. There should never be a case where boating Small Lasers should be punished, for instance. Probably not even mediums. If you had 6MGs they should still generate no heat. If you're running 4AC2s, well, their refire rate is already .5 seconds so would they get penalized just by firing at their normal speed? Those suckers are hot enough already!

[Wintersdark]

HRR Insanity, on 16 June 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Incorrect. If only mediums are allowed, the medium with the biggest alpha will be 'overpowered' because it will still kill other 'Mechs faster because of pinpoint damage.

This. I've been saying this as well since the Gauss Cat and AC20Cat were the big bad boogeyman. In much the same way, limiting hard points or hard point sizes will in no way limit "cheese builds" or whatever you want to call problem builds, it'll just make new/different ones.

As long as we have any control over what we can take, there will be "cheesy" builds. Always. There always are, in every game that allows customization, always.

Hell, if you ripped the Mech lab right out of MWO, we'd STILL have "cheesy" / "no skill" Mechs people hate because they are simply better than other Mechs.