1263 replies to this topic

[Lord Rip]

Hey Jack,


Too much straw?

[AndyHill]

Cone of fire or some other inaccuracy producing system would probably affect the pinpoint alpha issue quite a bit. However, it was one of the things that finally got me to leave WoT, it's really annoying to lose a fight just because a random number generator says 'no'. I especially like the fluid motion in MWO gameplay so speed based penalties, although probably realistic, are not on my wish list. Also I don't think it would do much to the gameplay. Granted, snipers wouldn't be nearly as fearsome anymore, but still the best way to fight would be to blast a huge alpha and get behind cover before the opponent can respond. Also when randomness is introduced you might get lucky and still get a really tight grouping, which I can imagine to be insanely annoying at the receiving end, knowing that it was pure luck.

I do realize there are arguments for this kind of inaccuracy producing systems, I just hope there are other ways of handling the issues.

[Inhibition]

Can't read all pages of responses but there must be someone else that
feels that PGI is creating problems by trying to "fix" no problem at all. Hunchback
4P is not a problem, but it's nerfed anyways lol

Boating is not a problem, and high alpha striking is not a problem. Some stock loadouts are boats.

It's only a problem to people who can't figure out how to deal with styles of gameplay and come to the forums to complain
about it, and nerf everything to existence

[Slanski]

Too many weapons can be fired from different location hardpoints into one perfect firing solution. The issue lies in the convergence and too high heat capacity of the mechs. Limit weapon groups and heat capacity and all problems go away.

The 3025/3050 targetting system (not Clan targetting computer) should only permit one tandem, aka left arm, right arm or left torso, right torso to be fired on one targetting solution. Not the entire loadout from the mech. So a Jägermech would have a firing solution for its 2 arms. A Marauder would have a solution for its 2 PPCs. A swayback would have a solution for its entire shoulderpack.

The deviation that heat sinks increase total heat capacity and not just dissipation delivers the final knockout punch.

The capacity to shoot the entire loadout onto one perfect solution gives us Victorian Battlecruiser -> Dreadnought change. Use a maximum number of one big calibre and one auxiliary weapon system. The resulting optimized mechs don't look anything like BT anymore.

[Nik Reaper]

Here's a thought , what if PPC could only fire 2 at a time than a delay as the generator fills there capacitors, So if you had 4 you can't fire 4 at once , instead you fire 2 and the other 2 get a partial recharge time, 1~1/2 sec as the generator regains charge ... or something, this solves most of the PPC problems ( the gauss could count as an PPC as it usees a lot of power )

This could work for energy weapons , but for large ballistics what if every shot made your mechs torso twist in the direction where the weapon is located so you would have to correct you'r aim after a shot as it would have a kick back effect , while firing 2 AC20s would shake the mech and be unprecise and not usable for much unless being in ~90m from the target.

The problem always is pinpoint large alpha , so just limit the aiming ability to land it all at the same spot at once , aiming penalty for group fire of large ballistic weapons and an energy limitation for large or many energy weapons could bring an new strange balance .

Edited by Nik Reaper, 18 June 2013 - 01:51 AM.

[WolvesX]

Niko Snow, on 11 June 2013 - 10:46 AM, said:

Tell us what you think of the new incoming Gameplay Update news.

Spoiler

Also.

To fix PPCs, Half the damage to 5
Half the heat to 4
Half the CD to 2

HIGH Alpha problem solved and PPC stil awesome.

[MustrumRidcully]

Quote

Here's a thought , what if PPC could only fire 2 at a time than a delay as the generator fills there capacitors, So if you had 4 you can't fire 4 at once , instead you fire 2 and the other 2 get a partial recharge time, 1~1/2 sec as the generator regains charge ... or something, this solves most of the PPC problems ( the gauss could count as an PPC as it usees a lot of power )

You could boil this down to a general rule:

Every weapon dealing 10 or more damage in a single shot (that means no lasers for now) puts all other weapons that put out more than 10 damage per shot on a server enforced cooldown. My guess is the cooldown could be as low as 0.25 seconds and would still have a meaningful impact. It might be best to sync the chain-fire cooldown and this special cooldown to the same time, so that you don't need a macro to optimize your firing pattern.

[Kymlaar]

I have two thoughts:

Heat Penalty:

I fear that a system like this begins to make things too difficult for new players, or those who do not read patch notes or wikis with a great eye for detail. The system or managing boating (if one is needed) should be one that is intuitive, or at least can be easily displayed in the confines of the interface. This system would require an entire help page or MWopedia entry to explain, as shown by how much detail was required for you to present the idea to us.

Heat Damage:

This system should not begin over 100% heat, it should be a small number of increasingly debilitating/damaging effects. Begin with a movement penalty as servos overheat, add some sway to the mech as gyros reach their limit, provide slightly increasing damage to the mech over time. Do each of these at different thresholds as below:

50% - a 5% movement speed penalty
55% - a 2 degrees of sway
60% - .05 dps to the center torso

Then just keep adding on those penalties at 5% increases as you go. Eventually, at 100% heat, you'd be suffering a 20% movement penalty, 10 degrees of sway, and .15 DPS to your center torso.

Just an example, but it's a thought.

[Shumabot]

Victor Morson, on 17 June 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

I wish people would realize that MechWarrior is not Table Top and for good reason. When you are about strategy game fights, the level of what can be done is based largely on the "time simulated per turn."

Case in point: In the 'mech dueling game, Solaris - it gets brought up a lot since it's rules are way more compatible with a MechWarrior game - they brought the time scale way down leading to... people aiming for specific areas in greater detail. Really, it's apart of the fluff and everything else, just not Table Top, which deals with more abstract Facings.

But no, we should not have random "die role" hit mechanics. I've posted before I would be OK with slowing convergence a bit or causing the accuracy of weapons being tied to heat (as that would be something good to lift from TT), because that would ultimately leave accuracy in the hands of the pilot and not dice - they get to choose what accuracy level their guns are, and debate pushing heat as a result. That adds depth and strategy, not pure chance then.

I don't want randomization in hit mechanics, those are awful, non competitive, and stupid. I want a damage system where the hit boxes make sense. Where a "torso" isn't a nebulous concept that somehow is sharing armor with the rest of the "torso". I'd like a system where to kill a gun I have to shoot that gun and shooting a vent or a giant block of armor does different damage. I want a system BT and by extension mechwarrior has never had before because it's always had its "traditional" hit zones. It just so happens that the traditional damage mechanic doesn't work in competitive multiplayer games and never will. Basically I want something similar to what world of tanks has going, the vehicles in that have incredible complex hitboxes and many forms of area specific damage.

Edited by Shumabot, 18 June 2013 - 06:05 AM.

[Shumabot]

Quote

Blatant, and false, propaganda. No weapon is optimized for every situation, so boating is not inherently superior. It is superior if and when the situation makes the boated weapons superior, and inferior much of the rest of the time. And don't give me some BS argument about how ERPPC are great weapons at any range. Their heat is too low, but still high enough that using them at short range, where pausing to cool off safely is not an option, is a poor option.

That is stupid nonsense. You're right, no gun is optimized for every situation, which is specifically what makes boating superior. You chose one form of play and then DO NOTHING ELSE, thus making sure you are the best at what you are doing the entire match.

• An all sniper loadout will beat a mixed loadout at range, and will kill it as it tries to approach to use its short range guns. The sniper will have more armor and guns per unit of weight than the mixed loadout because it's naturally taking a defensive posture.
  
• An all short range loadout will hide, never be shot by the enemies mixed long range weapons, and will destroy it up close. A short range loadout will feel no need to expose itself until it is within weapon range (easy to do on every map except alpine) and will win the close range fight with ease.
  
• A mixed loadout will lose to a sniper because it will never get close and will lose to a short range because it will never get to shoot it from far away.
  
• This extends to teams, a fully boated team doing one thing will usually demolish a mixed loadout team, especially in coordinated 8 mans.

That is how this game works. It is why every top tier loadout has been a boat of some kind since this game first came out. Boating has more benefits past simple gameplay, your weapons always travel the same speed so you don't have to stagger them. You know exactly how many heat sinks and how much ammo you need because your play style doesn't change, so you can have the best short and long term dps. If you're a sniper you know you can sacrifice engine for more weapons because you don't need to be fast. If you're all short range you can sacrifice weapons for speed because you know you still have more short range weapons than they do.

Jack you just keep proving over and over again that you don't actually consider your opinions, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Edited by Shumabot, 18 June 2013 - 06:04 AM.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

so i will double post my idea from other tread here as well, i almost sure some one already suggested this but anyway:

proper heat cap and heat dissipation, so the 4ppc (3ppc for HGN/AS-RS scared kittens) alfa will pop the mechs engine instantly, but chain fire those and you will be able to keep up substantial amount of DPS before hitting heat limit, and believe me chainfire noticeably decrease pinpoint amounts of damage giving you "spread" that you so desperately want, unless your victim will stand still for 30 seconds without even twisting its torso

[Big Giant Head]

Edited by Big Giant Head, 18 June 2013 - 06:13 AM.

[EchoMike]

For the love of Pete, why not just return the PCC/ERPPC to their original heat values? ..... And add a randomised hit location element when the Mech is 'under stress'. As discussed before in many a thread, when the mech is at critical heat, accuracy is reduced, perhaps speed and maneuverability are hindered etc.

[SolCrusher]

It's sad that all the complaining about boating is resulting in a completely FUBAR response. PGI you're like the Federal Government, knee jerk reactions to satisfy the smallest denomination of your player base.

Really people should learn to play, I don't really run high alpha builds and I can rack up 5 kills in a match, so now you'll have ELO which is FUBAR, combined with FUBAR tonnage mismatched drops, combined with FUBAR boating solution.

So in effect you're just destoying a fairly well put together game before you even hit the market. And you wonder why some people like myself haven't spent another dime beyond their founders package. I wish I wouldn't even had spent that.

Edited by SolCrusher, 18 June 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Deathlike]

Shumabot, on 18 June 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

That is stupid nonsense. You're right, no gun is optimized for every situation, which is specifically what makes boating superior. You chose one form of play and then DO NOTHING ELSE, thus making sure you are the best at what you are doing the entire match.

• An all sniper loadout will beat a mixed loadout at range, and will kill it as it tries to approach to use its short range guns. The sniper will have more armor and guns per unit of weight than the mixed loadout because it's naturally taking a defensive posture.
  
• An all short range loadout will hide, never be shot by the enemies mixed long range weapons, and will destroy it up close. A short range loadout will feel no need to expose itself until it is within weapon range (easy to do on every map except alpine) and will win the close range fight with ease.
  
• A mixed loadout will lose to a sniper because it will never get close and will lose to a short range because it will never get to shoot it from far away.
  
• This extends to teams, a fully boated team doing one thing will usually demolish a mixed loadout team, especially in coordinated 8 mans.

That is how this game works. It is why every top tier loadout has been a boat of some kind since this game first came out. Boating has more benefits past simple gameplay, your weapons always travel the same speed so you don't have to stagger them. You know exactly how many heat sinks and how much ammo you need because your play style doesn't change, so you can have the best short and long term dps. If you're a sniper you know you can sacrifice engine for more weapons because you don't need to be fast. If you're all short range you can sacrifice weapons for speed because you know you still have more short range weapons than they do.


Jack you just keep proving over and over again that you don't actually consider your opinions, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The points made are pretty accurate at a higher level of this game. If you're not boating correctly, you are literally doing it wrong.

[NextGame]

I like the changes in principle, but in practice its likely to basically act as a direct nerf to brawlers and simply encourage more lrms and sniping, as who cares about overheating if you are halfway across the map?

Edited by NextGame, 18 June 2013 - 08:14 AM.

[MrMadguy]

I don't like the idea of loadout restrictions, cuz it may hurt mech variants uniqueness. How? If you don't want players to be laserboats, then what the point of making laserboat mech variants? What the point of having 9 energy hardpoints? I thought, that "use lesser number of bigger guns" vs "fill all slots with smaller guns" should be player's choice. And sometimes filling all slots with most weight/slot effective weapons - is the only viable way of dealing with particular mech variant.

[fiStfiRE]

The Rules are already included within Battletech Guides/Rulebooks. Pilots should take damage after overheat shutdown, could fall into sleep, loose control and falldown and finally die.

Only Stock-Mechs can prevent boats in Battletech Games, all phantasy changes to Battletech Rules create a Battle-Machine Game but not a Battletech Game.

Please add a Stock-Mech mode.

[Ashnod]

Nova is going to have a sad day when it trys to alpha... not that it was pretty to begin with

[Shumabot]

fiStfiRE, on 18 June 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

The Rules are already included within Battletech Guides/Rulebooks. Pilots should take damage after overheat shutdown, could fall into sleep, loose control and falldown and finally die.

Only Stock-Mechs can prevent boats in Battletech Games, all phantasy changes to Battletech Rules create a Battle-Machine Game but not a Battletech Game.

Please add a Stock-Mech mode.

This is a mechwarrior game, not a battletech game. Or at least it's supposed to be. Considering the majority of this games problems come from lifting BT systems into real time a little less BT would be nice. Also, a stock mode wouldn't exactly be very balanced or fair, the stock mechs themselves aren't even close to competitively balanced with eachother.

If it were balanced a stock mode would be fun, but it won't be balanced with BT stock mechs. BT needed BV to be even vaguely balanced.

Edited by Shumabot, 18 June 2013 - 11:01 AM.